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Now, before I say anything, I understand this:

SM CM - SM Captain
they are exactly the same, statwise and gearwise.

then, a player pays 25 points for what?
a single S10 AP1 hit? it almost never hits!

I think SM CM should be 150 pts, get +1 to WS, BS, and initiative.

Additionally, I thought about them having artificier armour as standard.

and, instead, they can take an orbital targeter for 25 pts (just as an equipment piece, gives the orbital bombardment.)

As for playtesting, I used this in a 2000 point game, it fared well against a tyranid hive tyrant.

The thought also comes from the idea that a SMCM is supposedly best soldier in the army, then why are his stats EXACTLY the same as a SM Captain.

No on the +1 BS. GW is trying to phase out BS over 5 as it just gets confusing. "Well if I roll a one, I get to reroll and I actually hit if I get a 6" Too confusing, plus is that a re-roll & if so, how does it work with twin link, you can only ever re-roll a die once.

so... what? the best stats are going to be

WS10 BS5 S10 T10 W10 I10 Ld10 Sv 2+ ISv 2+

that would be bad. I like BS6. how about they take all weapons as master crafter?

And how about my Hive Tyrant getting a 3+ invulnerable save and the ability to use two psychic powers per turn? Also BS4 would be nice.

well, 25 points is really alot for one strong shot. I'd like it if the marines CM was special - not just a slightly better version of the SM captain, they should be MUCH better.

Orbital Bombardment works fine, I don't really think it needs to be removed or anything. Yes, it is inaccurate, but fire it at the right time and place and it's bound to do serious damage on something.

DH Orbital Strike is much better though...

Valk

Shas'O Dorian wrote:No on the +1 BS. GW is trying to phase out BS over 5 as it just gets confusing. "Well if I roll a one, I get to reroll and I actually hit if I get a 6" Too confusing, plus is that a re-roll & if so, how does it work with twin link, you can only ever re-roll a die once.

You use the better reroll. How is this confusing in the slightest?

I've seen the Orbital bombardment take out Landraiders and Monoliths. Is it worth the extra 25 points? While not always reliable, that chance to take out a 200+ point model is worth it.

Captain Solon:

I utterly reject your suggestion for the following reason: It limits the options available on the particular unit, and has no fluff justification as of yet. If Artificer Armour is required, then the cost of a Chapter Master is 150 base, and leaves you with one less option to choose. Trust me, people like having options, even if they don't ever take half of them!

Also imagine the upgrade list:
- can buy a Storm Bolter for ....
- can buy a Combi-Bolter for....
- can buy Artificer Armour for...
-can upgrade BS by 1 for...
-can upgrade WS by 1 for...

No. Usually this is covered by creating a "officer rank" in a squad, that has a higher WS/BS. Who is higher than a Chapter Master though?

I'd keep in mind that there is one other difference: the Chapter Master can take a different retinue unit, that hits harder than the normal command squad. Between that and the OB, that probably will make the 25 pts.

Look, I understand you SM HQ's were a little made in 4th when Chaos Lords were WS 6 and you cried foul. Now you are the same as us. Just how exactly do you justify then being better in h2h? Fah I say on your WS increase further rule wishing.

Che-Vito wrote:Captain Solon:

I utterly reject your suggestion for the following reason: It limits the options available on the particular unit, and has no fluff justification as of yet. If Artificer Armour is required, then the cost of a Chapter Master is 150 base, and leaves you with one less option to choose. Trust me, people like having options, even if they don't ever take half of them!

Also imagine the upgrade list:
- can buy a Storm Bolter for ....
- can buy a Combi-Bolter for....
- can buy Artificer Armour for...
-can upgrade BS by 1 for...
-can upgrade WS by 1 for...

No. Usually this is covered by creating a "officer rank" in a squad, that has a higher WS/BS. Who is higher than a Chapter Master though?

you've kinda missed the lodge.

it's having base WS and BS, I as that, and making orbie an upgrade.
artificer armour is an upgrade for 15 pts.
Consider everything in his wargear:

he gets the same as a Assault marine (for 18 pts) +2 WS and 1 BS 2 W 1I and an iron halo. if thats worth the same as 78 pts, then lets put it into perspective:
iron halo is worth roughly 20 pts, and then the W and I are worth roughly 15. those WS and BS can be upgraded by 1 for 35 pts.

so why not make then 35 and scrap art. armour?



as for Chaos lordz, youz getz yur fowl Chayos and dee-mons, sho shush.\

I like the idea. Makes CM more likely to be taken.

Mark the calenders folks. An idea of Solon's I think is good. I totaly agree that Chapter Masters being statblock identical to Captains is a pile. They are masters of a chapter for goddam REASONS.

I whole heartedly agree that chapter masters need some work. Especially considering that there are special characters that are chapter masters who would blow the generic chapter master out of the water.

I think your idea is legit Captain Solon. Even the BS6. I dont think a cap of BS5 is needed, especially if its just to water down the game. Artificer armor and orbital bombardment as upgrades is a good idea. Options are always good, who doesnt like options?

Why would the chapter master be the best warrior in the chapter? These aren't orks, command positions are given out for reasons beyond the ability to swing a thunder hammer.

Give them Eternal Warrior. That should be enough to set them apart, and the CSM players already have the Daemon Prince, so they shouldn't have too much to complain about.

How about a Rending Pony?

Shas'O Dorian wrote:No on the +1 BS. GW is trying to phase out BS over 5 as it just gets confusing. "Well if I roll a one, I get to reroll and I actually hit if I get a 6" Too confusing, plus is that a re-roll & if so, how does it work with twin link, you can only ever re-roll a die once.

I don`t think SMs has hand-held twin-linked weapons, especially not for CM.
OT, Solon, i like this idea, the CMs are the best warriors the Imperium has, so their stats should absolutely be better.
Cheers!

i see one big problem with this. A chapter master isn't necessarly better than a captain. Space marines aren't all about "whose the combat beast, lets make him our chapter master" Captain Cortez is supposed to be a better fighter than Pedro Kantor, but Kantor is chapter master because of his experience and ability to lead. It seems unecessary to make Chapter Masters any better than Captains, frankly because how much better can an average space marine get.
Sorry that i only use crimson fists as an example, but there the only chapter i really know

Wouldn't an easier fix to be just to make the Captain WS5 and 90 points? That way you wouldn't suddenly have a generic Chapter master much harder than the 265 point Marneas Calgar (or even the 175 point Pedro)? That was the old statline for a Captain and reserve the WS6 for Chapter masters and special Characters problem solevd and now there is a reason to take the CM. Although the Captain becomes the cheapest HQ choice which should encourage poeple to start with him (rather than the predictable Libby or Spec character).

Kurgash wrote:Look, I understand you SM HQ's were a little made in 4th when Chaos Lords were WS 6 and you cried foul. Now you are the same as us. Just how exactly do you justify then being better in h2h? Fah I say on your WS increase further rule wishing.

QFT

Perhaps make obital bombardment an optional upgrade along with a few others but making them exclusive (you can chose Obital Bombardment for X points or Option B for X points). This way the base price for the CM is a little cheaper but also a little more flexible. This way everyone is happy.

For once I agree with Solon in my opinion the CM is crap CSM have the option of Lords and Deamon Princes before they start winging about SM being overpowered. I believe the CM should have the following stats

WS BS S T I W A LD
6 5 4 5 5 3 3 10

Not sure on the points probaly 150 -165 something like that. In this cost they should have Artificer Armour as standard with the option to upgrade to Terminator Armour and the Orbital Bombardement should be an add on. Lets face it no CM is going to deploy in plain old power armour if the Chapter has Artificer Armour.

While I agree CM should come with Artificer armour as standard (yes Pedro I'm looking at you) it would be a great departure from the game design for them to have T5. Imagine Calgar or Lysander at T5 it'd be disgusting!

Keep them as is, drop the Orbital bombardment to a option (which he can take 2 of) and give them Artificer armour as standard for 115 points.

Then drop the Captain to 90 points (so he's the cheapest HQ choice) and make him WS5.

Sorted CM has better arnmour (as standard) and better WS and an extra option. Captain is now the cheapest HQ choice but still a potent CC guy.

No way should Chapter Masters be T5. That doesnt make any sense fluff wise and would unbalance the game.

WS6 with artificer armor seems a much better idea, and much better fluff wise. Orbital bombardment should be an option as it really isnt needed and again fluff wise this makes sense.

So, I see the idea of cap'n being cheaper. (with expected bonuses.)

I think 170 is adequit for a CM

You'd need to be dedicated to take a CM, so I stick with this:

WS7 BS6 S4 T4 I5 (maybe even six?) W3 (4?) A 3 (4?) Ld 10 sv 2+

also, there are units that can get awesome weapons, So maybe even SB as standard (maybe getting a bit on there.) or a chainsword.

Basic cost for a SM tac === 16 pts.
gear = bolter, bolt pistol Power armour and Statline 4 W1 A1 Ld8.

if thats worth 16 points, then I see this fit:

3+ to WS 2+ to BS 1+ to I 2+ to W, A and Lf plus better armour.

simply being HQ is worth raising to 50.

that leaves 100 pts.
thats a point bonus is worth 80 points. the LD is expected. so each is worth roughly 8 pts.

5 pts for a chainsword, 15 for artificer armour


thats my idea.

Captain Solon wrote:
WS7 BS6 S4 T4 I5 (maybe even six?) W3 (4?) A 3 (4?) Ld 10 sv 2+

WS7...no. Needs no further explanation, just no.

I've been thinking about this for a while actually. How about these changes?

1. Chapter Master now has 4 base attacks.
2. Honour Guard can take Storm Shield for 15 points each.
3. Orbital Bombardment changes its profile to Heavy 1, Large Blast.

5 points more expensive than before. That way the CM hits harder in close combat, differentiating it from the Captain, and actually makes Honour Guard worth taking. Compared to other similar HQ choices (such as Chaos Lords and Wolf Lords), not to mention the basic Captain, it's quite balanced.

The thing you are all neglecting, of course, in terms of game balance, is that the Chapter Master's Honour Guard and Captain's Command Squad play completely different roles on the battlefield. The Honour Guard is a staggeringly powerful close-combat unit, whereas the Command Squad...well...I really don't know what they're for. Except maybe if you wanted an entire unit of plasma guns or meltaguns. The point is, they're just cheap veterans with weird options, whereas the Honour Guard is a true terror in close combat.

So, 25 points nets you a small but finite chance to take out a big tank, monstrous creature, or unit of heavy infantry, and the ability to take a really scary vanguard unit. From that standpoint, the CM doesn't need to be any better than he is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're going to change anything about the CM, he should get Fantasy-Style leadership sharing, or some other function of how great a commander he is, not just combat bonuses.

whereas the Honour Guard is a true terror in close combat.

Not really, they're pretty average in CC especially for their points and are one of the worst options available in the SM codex. Command squad is much better when used correctly.

Orbital bombardment is a bit meh, in general my CMs rarely stand still long enough to ever use them, at most I tend to use 1 in a game, never actually used the 2nd.