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Abit off topic here...

mrwittwer wrote:No way should Chapter Masters be T5. That doesnt make any sense fluff wise and would unbalance the game.

So how can that space marine chaplin dude have T6?!?!?!?!?!?!

Eagleark.

He is a special character. I honestly have no problem with special characters having different statlines as that is what makes them "special". To have the standard build broken like that is what imbalances the game.

So how can that space marine chaplin dude have T6?!?!?!?!?!?!

He has 2 wounds 2 attacks can take fearless wounds and is a special character (heck look at mephistons stats). Special characters are hjust that special. Having standard characters (that you can kit out how you want) that broken is just imbalanced or you;d have to make them so expensive that they're not worth it...

FlingitNow wrote:

whereas the Honour Guard is a true terror in close combat.

Not really, they're pretty average in CC especially for their points and are one of the worst options available in the SM codex. Command squad is much better when used correctly.

Orbital bombardment is a bit meh, in general my CMs rarely stand still long enough to ever use them, at most I tend to use 1 in a game, never actually used the 2nd.

They can earn their points back against a single monsterous creature in close combat, usually without a single wound. That's where they shine.

Sorry, but im following along with the "chapter masters arent allways the strongest" idea on this one.


Reasoning: Look at dante, then mephiston.
Mephiston will tear him apart every time without fail, yet he is no chapter master.

Should have some slight advantage though (chapter tactics for one :K)

Che-Vito wrote:They can earn their points back against a single monsterous creature in close combat, usually without a single wound. That's where they shine.

Not really. The main problem with Honour Guard is their lack of invulnerable save, or any way to get one. In order to damage MC you would need to buy them all Relic Blades, otherwise they are only wounding T6 on 6+, at which point they become way too expensive. They MC they are fighting would also need to have low Initiative to avoid tacking casualties.

They can earn their points back against a single monsterous creature in close combat, usually without a single wound. That's where they shine.

Only if you give them relic blades and then they are 50 pts a model with no invulnerable save and 1 wound. Hammernators would do the job better for cheaper. If that MC (which won't cost near as muchy as the 5 you'll probably need to have a decent chance of taking it down) has but a single wound left then you are in serious trouble. If that MC have I4 or greater likewise you are in serious trouble. So yeah a squad of 4 all with relic blades on the charge should kill a carnifex without injury, that 210 pts to take out 170pts and reliant on charge. Where as a 100 point runepriest would nail lodas of carnifexes easily.

FlingitNow wrote:

whereas the Honour Guard is a true terror in close combat.

Not really, they're pretty average in CC especially for their points and are one of the worst options available in the SM codex. Command squad is much better when used correctly.

Orbital bombardment is a bit meh, in general my CMs rarely stand still long enough to ever use them, at most I tend to use 1 in a game, never actually used the 2nd.

I fail to see why 2+ saves and 4 attacks (5 on assault) with power weapons at the cost of about 40 points per model is "pretty average." I've devoured entire squads with those six models. Chaos Plague Marines, Ork Boyz, and even Striking Scorpions have fallen to one round of assaults by that unit. I've never played a game where they didn't make their points back. So, unless by "pretty average," you mean "incredibly effective," I don't see your point.

I agree with the agrument that the honour guard are an affective unit. When used correctly, they can be awesome and can do a sweeping advance (which termies cannot). I only wish chaos had an honour guard equivalent. Until they do, I guess I will have to run my Lord with plain jane termies or KBs

I fail to see why 2+ saves and 4 attacks (5 on assault) with power weapons at the cost of about 40 points per model is "pretty average." I've devoured entire squads with those six models.

The problem is no invulnerable save makes them to exposed to enemy fire power or other deathstars. 6 guys and a standard right? That's 245 points lets charge them into say 240 points of hammernators:

6 guys = 31 attacks = 16 hits = 8 wounds = 2 dead hammernators.

6 attacks back = 3 hits = 3 dead HG

Next turn:

3 guys = 13 attacks = 7 hits = 3.5 wounds = 1 more dead hammernator

2 Hammernator = 4 attacks 2 hits 2 more dead HG...

And that's with you getting the charge and being more points! Whilst ignoring the major disadvantage HG have of being liable to get shot up.

Granted against hordes HG can kick butt better than Terminators because of the sweeping advance and the raw number ogf attacks they throw out. But against anything else they just die too quickly.

Oh and by the way I'd fancy my scouts against an equal number of striking scorpions, so taking them down is hardly something to really go on about.

HG are 115 points base. thats 35 pts each, they then take relic blades.

to get a squad of six, you pay an extra 115 points and then add 6 15 point relic blades for 120 points.

that turns out at around 380.

Captain Solon wrote:HG are 115 points base. thats 35 pts each, they then take relic blades.

to get a squad of six, you pay an extra 115 points and then add 6 15 point relic blades for 120 points.

that turns out at around 380.

Against most enemies....power weapons are enough.
It is painfully obvious that you and Flingitnow haven't made a regular practice of using Honor Guard beyond MathHammer.

It is painfully obvious that you and Flingitnow haven't made a regular practice of using Honor Guard beyond MathHammer.

Not used them but have come up against them and I still contest that Hammernators are just a better option in nearly every situation. Not if you;re up against horde but other elements will be more efficient against hordes that Honour guard anyway. The only thing I think they'd be points efficient against is a big pack of bloodclaws.

There's a reason you rarely see them in tournaments.

FlingitNow wrote:

It is painfully obvious that you and Flingitnow haven't made a regular practice of using Honor Guard beyond MathHammer.

Not used them but have come up against them and I still contest that Hammernators are just a better option in nearly every situation. Not if you;re up against horde but other elements will be more efficient against hordes that Honour guard anyway. The only thing I think they'd be points efficient against is a big pack of bloodclaws.

There's a reason you rarely see them in tournaments.

Their uses are limited, based on opponent and also point value. At under 1500, many times they are simply not worth it. At over 3,000 (Apoc./large regular 40k games) they can be golden.

I generally play in the 1,500-1,750 range. Although I often have a cheeky 1,000 point game or even a 500 every now and then. that's probably why I don't see HG as points effective.

FlingitNow wrote:I generally play in the 1,500-1,750 range. Although I often have a cheeky 1,000 point game or even a 500 every now and then. that's probably why I don't see HG as points effective.

500 point games would barely allow an HQ and two troops choices beyond the HG.
1000 still means that roughly 1/3 of your army is tied up in five models, and is non-scoring.

At 3,000, it is 1/10 of your total points, but is a great troubleshooting unit.

FlingitNow wrote:

I fail to see why 2+ saves and 4 attacks (5 on assault) with power weapons at the cost of about 40 points per model is "pretty average." I've devoured entire squads with those six models.

The problem is no invulnerable save makes them to exposed to enemy fire power or other deathstars. 6 guys and a standard right? That's 245 points lets charge them into say 240 points of hammernators:

6 guys = 31 attacks = 16 hits = 8 wounds = 2 dead hammernators.

6 attacks back = 3 hits = 3 dead HG

Next turn:

3 guys = 13 attacks = 7 hits = 3.5 wounds = 1 more dead hammernator

2 Hammernator = 4 attacks 2 hits 2 more dead HG...

I agree with you. If you attack a unit you aren't built to fight, you will fail. That argument can be made for any unit. However, not being tactically mindless, one must deploy them into the sorts of battles they're good at: high cost and volume-reliant heavy infantry.

Thunder Hammer Terminators have their uses and are by and large excellent models. Assaulting Carnifex Broods, for example, they win every time. But they might just be eaten alive by their cost in Killa Kanz with Grotzookas if you don't deploy them right.

FlingitNow wrote:
Not used them but have come up against them and I still contest that Hammernators are just a better option in nearly every situation. Not if you;re up against horde but other elements will be more efficient against hordes that Honour guard anyway. The only thing I think they'd be points efficient against is a big pack of bloodclaws.

Yes, that would be exactly the sorts of units you use them against, if you're doing it right.

I may be biased. I play against Orks a lot. Nothing is funnier than taking apart, say, assaulting Stormboyz with an Honour Guard.

marneus, 265 pts.8 +man honor guard+40 for relic blade and chapter standard320 pts'575 pts its alot but it works great, and i love the orbitea



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marneus, 265 pts.8 +man honor guard+40 for relic blade and chapter standard320 pts'575 pts its alot but it works great, and i love the orbitea