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In my area the current meta is very Mechanized heavy... every army I see is mechanized (Orks, Tau, SM, IG, etc). I have more than enough vehicles to follow this trend with the new BA codex, but I have no desire to have another mechanized list next to my IG. Since mobility is such an important factor in 5th Edition, is it viable to use a Jump-Pack heavy list with little-to-none vehicular support?

So far I intend to use something of this sort (As I don't have the codex in my hands yet thanks to Alaska's phenomenally slow shipping speed, I'm not exact on the points yet):

Dante
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests with Jump Pack
3 Squads of 10 Assault Space Marines, with 2 Meltaguns
Death Company with Jump Packs


So, I'd like to discuss the merits of Jump Packs, as well as their shortfalls.

The floor is yours, gentlemen.

As long as you're willing to max out on the jump packs, and not compromise the list with *any* vehicles you can make it work, but you also are going to need some anti-tank, and no, jump packing melta guns aren't going to be able to do it all for you.

I'd probably go with multi-melta attack bike squadrons in the FA slots.

Personally, I think that assault squads in fast rhinos are better, but if you want to go non-mechanized, go all-out.

I can agree with that. If you're gonna do something, don't do it half-baked.

I know that they probably are better, but I just don't want a 2nd mech list. It would get boring for me.

Maybe a set of devastators with LCs will help plug the gap in long range AT, but I don't know how they are cost-wise in the new codex. Are they overpriced?

I may HAVE to take a pred or two to cover the gaps if devs are just way too overcosted.

Since your army is likely to be super aggressive anyways, I think the multi-melta attack bikes would be a more points-efficient unit than the lascannon devs, despite the lack of range.

That is true, so would regular SM bikes with meltaguns help as well, or are we talking only attack bikes?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That is true, so would regular SM bikes with meltaguns help as well, or are we talking only attack bikes?

Regular bikes cost too much if all you're using them for is melta guns, and the extra range of the multi-meltas makes them much better.

My initial view of the codex leads me to think all jump pack is doable. All the elements are there to make it work and it has the potential to be a spoiler to all the armies geared for anti-tank.

Some options to consider:

1) Dante isn't all that impressive for his cost. I'd go with Librarians since they provide so many benefits to your list (6" 5+ cover bubble that is cast in your opponents shooting phase, preferred enemy to the unit joined, line of anti-vehicle death, etc) and are cheap.

2) Honor Guard are a steal in the new codex because they bundle a non-IC sanguinary priest. I'd go with them before sanguinary guard.

3) Death Guard have little place in an all jump pack army imo. Better to get more bodies that will benefit from the sanguinary priests then spend points on units that don't benefit. Not saying DG suck but in this style of list they aren't the most efficient choice.

4) BA dev squads get a price reduction on their heavy weapons compared to SM in the same manner as SW (5 marines and 4 ML runs 130, 5 marines and 4 LCs runs 190). Could be an option for long range support that is not a tank.

5) Attack bikes benefit from the sanguinary guard so I agree with willy and like their addition.

Do honor guard have 2+ armor saves? If not, then the Sanguinary guard will have their purpose.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:In my area the current meta is very Mechanized heavy... every army I see is mechanized (Orks, Tau, SM, IG, etc). I have more than enough vehicles to follow this trend with the new BA codex, but I have no desire to have another mechanized list next to my IG. Since mobility is such an important factor in 5th Edition, is it viable to use a Jump-Pack heavy list with little-to-none vehicular support?

So far I intend to use something of this sort (As I don't have the codex in my hands yet thanks to Alaska's phenomenally slow shipping speed, I'm not exact on the points yet):

Dante
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests with Jump Pack
3 Squads of 10 Assault Space Marines, with 2 Meltaguns
Death Company with Jump Packs


So, I'd like to discuss the merits of Jump Packs, as well as their shortfalls.

The floor is yours, gentlemen.

Any army need str 10. Use drop-pod dreads, preferably a couple of librarian dreads. But that str10 is a must, otherwise, Grave. If your using 3x10man assault marines, corbulo is a must.

Drop pods + DoA, I feel, will work really well. You are no longer constrained by having to put infantry in those pods!

Corbulo a must? Seeing how he doesn't have the option for a jump pack, how would he keep up?

I see what you mean about needing some dreadnoughts though... It would be alright by me to get some tasty blood claws going on....

another thing to keep in mind with podding libby dreads is that blood lance doesnt need LoS so you can drop them behind terrain and still get lance shots off.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Corbulo a must? Seeing how he doesn't have the option for a jump pack, how would he keep up?

I see what you mean about needing some dreadnoughts though... It would be alright by me to get some tasty blood claws going on....

Drop pods. Extremely cheap assault marines. Oh and blood talons are only needed if your fielding a list with a lack of massed str4 attacks. As that pretty much fields the same roll as blood talons (Infantry mowing).

Ok the point is to have jump-pack spam, not podding-dreadnoughts-and-special-characters spam.

Sanguinary priests are fine, as they can have jump packs. I'm splitting one out to every assault squad.

Bikes might get put in, and devs if points allow, but for the most part I'm not screwing around with dreadnoughts and drop pods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And furthermore, this topic is getting increasingly off topic. Can we please discuss the benefits of going for jump packs over a mechanized list?

Only things I have thought of yet are that lists tailored to counter mech are going to be a lot worse off with an all jump-pack list, and having more points for more bodies. What other benefits are there?

Negatives: no armored shell to keep them safe (being immune to S3 is nice when facing horde guard or tyranid, but those are rare in my area anyway), not receiving the benefits of the razorback rush. What other downsides are there?

If you are running assault marines, you need to back them up with AT,

I run mine with speeders, 2 or 3 with MM's (BT's can give Assault squads melta bombs, so that helps me out too)

speeders move the same and can still fire 1 weapon, and the speeders will be a bigger target then your assault squads

The benefits of JPs over a mech list is that you have a swarm army of marines, people with TL Las-cannons are gonna kill one model, instead of a rhino and then a bunch of guys that have to slog across the field.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
And furthermore, this topic is getting increasingly off topic. Can we please discuss the benefits of going for jump packs over a mechanized list?

Only things I have thought of yet are that lists tailored to counter mech are going to be a lot worse off with an all jump-pack list, and having more points for more bodies. What other benefits are there?

Negatives: no armored shell to keep them safe (being immune to S3 is nice when facing horde guard or tyranid, but those are rare in my area anyway), not receiving the benefits of the razorback rush. What other downsides are there?

Here is a positive that most people don't think about. Reliable speed. Sure, APC's might be the the safe, speedy way to get there; but a Lascannon won't reduce the speed of your JP troops to 6 inches on turn 2. You have to kill all of them to prevent them from moving full speed. Sure you are lacking other protections, but they will always be there doing the same thing they were capable of last turn. No embarking, no disembarking, just moving.

I run mostly foot lists and really, a model moving 6 inches a turn will make it 36'' in a standard 6 turn game. And they could get the chance to start 12'' up. So even a walking SM can cross the board if devoted enough. Standard objectives can't be place within 12'' of a board edge (right? I'm not looking it up) so that's even less distance to cover.

The biggest trick to learn is don't commit too early. Running straight at them will allow them to fold on you unless you manage to hit all of them at once, and then you're over committed. I would think you need reliable anti tank that can leave your troops to hit and run. Can't you get a dreadnought to move like JP? That would fit the bill pretty well. Either those or landspeeders, something that moves fast and gives you the chance to pop tanks/transports. Anything to slow down the the enemy and maintain your advantage of speed. And do all of your objective taking late in the game just like mech eldar, or cough up some troops to sit on them.

I played a test game tonight (against my poor wife's sisters of battle) using the Descent of Angels rule... and I must say I love having multiple kill-teams of 5 men with 1 melta gun... the D6 scatter put them nearly spot on every time. Even allied land raiders couldn't handle meltagunners appearing all around it.

I have to say that jump packs made my infantry far more manueverable than vehicles would have. The board was choked full of terrain that would have vastly impeded a vehicle's movement. Humblesteve is right... a motivated trooper could hoof it 36" in a game turn, but flying over it is so much better!

I did have ONE mishap that resulted in a squad being killed, but one out of 6 is not a game-losing loss to my force.

I used death company without packs and was impressed. They are, IMO, weaker than in the PDF codex since they lost rending and gained Rage, but they still pack quite a wallop in CC. Now that they are only twenny points apiece, it isn't too bad a deal to take ten of them and stuff them into a Land Raider. At least they still have FNP and FC. The only thing with them is that they really only belong in lists that lack sanguinary priests, which will be few and far between, since they do not benefit from anything the SPs have to offer.

The only place this kind of list breaks down, as I see it, is in the lower point ranges. Partly that is due to the BA codex having very fair prices on all of these uber units, which is to say they cost a lot!

For heavy weapons would Speeders be an option? They can move 12" and still shoot, the can T-Boost (i think). And you can load them up with a decent mix f heavy weapons (i went with h.flamer and m.melta on mine)

Ach, weirdness.... saw a double post, then edited one of them, then it wasn't a double post...

Anyways, Death Company are like berzerkers that don't score, but gain much better durability, and cost less. Considering aggressively-played berzerkers rarely survive to score anyways, I see it as being not much of a trade-off at all. Death Company are better, for cheaper, and Berzerkers are considered by many to be one of the better choices in the CSM codex.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:In my area the current meta is very Mechanized heavy... every army I see is mechanized (Orks, Tau, SM, IG, etc). I have more than enough vehicles to follow this trend with the new BA codex, but I have no desire to have another mechanized list next to my IG. Since mobility is such an important factor in 5th Edition, is it viable to use a Jump-Pack heavy list with little-to-none vehicular support?

So far I intend to use something of this sort (As I don't have the codex in my hands yet thanks to Alaska's phenomenally slow shipping speed, I'm not exact on the points yet):

Dante
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests with Jump Pack
3 Squads of 10 Assault Space Marines, with 2 Meltaguns
Death Company with Jump Packs


So, I'd like to discuss the merits of Jump Packs, as well as their shortfalls.

The floor is yours, gentlemen.

Take as many full strength Jump marines you can. I wouldn't worry about putting meltas on these units though. you wont be doing to much tank hunting with them.

I would also reccomend taking an obsene amount of land speeders. arm them with multimeltas or simply take the typhon versions with some crack missle fun. That shoudl keep to the theme of your amry very well. whatever you do I think you will ahve a great time with the jump troops. I am not playing BA but I am a fan of the jump marine. i have never been satisfied unless I can bring a maxed out squad of them.

well, judging by your mini battle report, it looks like this is a pretty solid list. Although, maybe for more anti tank, add a power fist to each AS squad? The melta guns will be good, but if you don't destroy it, you aren't going to be able to charge anything else, cuz you can only charge what you shoot at... If i remember rightly anyways...
Question: how did your Sag guard do? i have not heard much about them except for there stats....

I think you need to put more jump pack marines on the table if you are going to go this route. You also need to keep the meltas in as you said that the majority of your opponents are mech. I think the positives for the list is very low kill points.

Consider the following list:
Librarian j pack
Librarian j pack
3 sanguinary priests jump pack power weapon
5 X assualt squad 2 melta, power fist

This is 10 KP at 1850. Most mech lists are running 15-18 at that point value, So on KP missions you will have a significant advantage.

Also consider deepstriking the army. The reduced scatter means you wil be able to get in close and drop the meltas in range to kill vehicles. With 5 units deepstriking you should get 2 1/2 in on turn 2.

The strength I see with this list is also that it is very tough. Keep them tight together and you get units with a 3+, 5+ (cover save from librarians), and a 4+ feel no pain. Small arms fire will largely bounce off with only 1 in 6 wounds getting through while you still get at least a 5 + cover save against the big guns.

The only thing I would caution is that while this can probably be sucessful it has some weaknesses to certian armies that a little mech can help. Some speeders to down hordes with flamers, a dreadnuaght drop pod to give you a little better alpha strike. That said I am probably bringing the list above out.

You can charge the contents of a vehicle that you destroyed during the shooting phase. Also, I have 1 round of shooting when they arrive via deepstrike... so I like to put it to good use. Adding meltas allows me to deepstrike near hardened targets like Land Raiders or Battlewagons and reduce them to slag the turn I arrive. My only regret is that I arrive on the 2nd turn or later, which is usually more than enough time for Orks or Tau to get where they are wanting to go.

Adding powerfists to the assault squads is a good idea, but it gets costly. Keeping them cheap seems to be working well for me. Adding a meltagun for every 5 marines is also a huge boost to their power output at their given range, even if they are not tank-hunting per se. One meltagun shot has a good chance of instagibbing a high-wound low-toughness target, or knocking out a single terminator, etc.

As for my sang guard, I have not tried them yet. I have still been slogging my way through building and painting a bunch of Sisters of Battle lately (for my wife) so I haven't gotten to build them yet.

I did not get to try Dante, because I am still unsure about his exact stats. My codex isn't here yet, due to slow alaskan postal times, so I played things that were pretty standard to the regular SM codex. I'm pretty sure I got most of the point values right.

So I'm looking at needing to buy either Attack bikes, or Land speeders to mount my heavy weaponry? I'm not thrilled at needing to buy yet MORE models, as my wallet is already sobbing quietly at the recent purchases.

It looks like an all jump infantry list will be more competitive for BA this time but after reading the codex yesterday I am looking towards a combined arms approach with a heavy jump infantry element. Personally I think there is a lot of potential with the new Storm Raven.

G

Yeah... I think combined arms will be the way to go. I'm fiddling around with adding a few Land Raider pillboxes to anchor all those deepstrikers.

Considering what some other posters have said in this and another thread, I think that MM land speeders may be the way to go over attack bikes. They both get fried by lascannon fire, but the land speeders can block the movement of other units, something that attack bikes just can't do.

I've been wondering about Vanguard Vets. Since they scatter only 1d6 inches, I've been thinking they're a nice deal. Deepstrike some assault squads with meltas, maybe even sternguard in a landraider, and pop tanks that the vanguard land next to. Then charge the juicy centers?

Spellbound wrote:I've been wondering about Vanguard Vets. Since they scatter only 1d6 inches, I've been thinking they're a nice deal. Deepstrike some assault squads with meltas, maybe even sternguard in a landraider, and pop tanks that the vanguard land next to. Then charge the juicy centers?

Still too risky, IMO. If you get a wreck instead of a 'splosion, then he'll just disembark on the opposite side of the wreck.

Which may still be in assault range, depending on how close you are. If you wanted to use drop-pod dreads as well, you could even try to magna-grapple tanks closer before firing at them to pop them. It's a lot of work on one tank/embarked unit, but could result in a unit or two wiped out entirely on what would normally be a lackluster shooting phase, for most dropping armies.

Here is my jump pack list:

HQ

Librarian 125
Jump Pack

Honour Guard 195
Jump Packs
Blood Champ
Power Weapon x1
Chapter Banner (the 15 point one)


Elite

Priest 75
Jump Pack

Furiouso Dreadnought
Blood Talons

Troops

Tactical Squad 170
Missile
Plasma
Power Weapon

Assault Squad 235
Powerfist
x2 Meltas

Assault Squad 210
Power Weapons
x2 Meltas

Assault Squad (x6) 138
Power Weapon
x1 Flamer

Fast

Veterans 265
Jump Packs
Powerfist
Power Weapon x2

Heavy

Predator 136
Lascannon Sponsons
Searchlights
Predator 136
Lascannon Sponsons
Searchlights


=1850 points

Reasoning:

-I feel long range anti tank is crucial if you want to stand up against something like Eldar. Id rather not jump around on the enemy's terms using short range melta guns (that even get negated by Eldar serpents) the entire game. Predators being AV13 are a tough cookie to crack, especially when theyre fast and can use cover to their advantage.

-The furiouso is just a cheap killing machine designed to take some antitank fire away from the jump squads (such as honour guard). He can stay at home and defend the objective or move forward melta gunning. AV13 is no joke either, and it will take some dedicated shooting to bring him down.

-The tacticals are there to force the opponent to come to me. If you have nothing but jump packs and no one on home base (or a useless 12" range assault unit), then your opponent can turtle and, again, play on their terms of where and when we fight. The plasma is there for 24" range shots to shoot down some rhinos or trukks.

That looks like a fine combined forces list, but it doesn't really smack of jump-pack-spam to me. You really only have the librarian, two and a half assault squads, and the honor guard as jump troops.

I understand the reasoning though, and this list is probably better than a true jump-pack pure list.