Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There are 40 jump packs in the army.

Librarian
Priest
5 honour guard
26 assault marines
7 veterans.

I think its obvious if you want jump pack spam, take nothing but jump packs. However, if you want a list that is a better all comers, youre not going to be able to do that. You have to have some versatility to cover your weaknesses.

Oops, missed the vets. Still, there are a lot of non-jump-infantry units. But as we have been discussing, pure jump-pack lists are not real viable anyway.

I'd be interested to hear how your first game with this list goes, however.

I just wonder if something like a pure Infantry army utilizing the speed of Jump Packs with fire support could be decent. Dev Squads aren't amazing but in a list like this they seem like they could offer an optimized support.

A mix of Assault Marines, Devs, attack bikes and possibly death company/terminators to provide an in your face element might work decently. Maybe I'm just way off track.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Yeah, volkan, that is what we have been trying to accomplish. There are chinks with the theory, but we're working through them.

Basically the problem sounds like Eldar. They're tanks can negate melta, so we need some lascannon support to punch through them. Only having a few devs with them doesn't sound like a good plan, so what are some alternatives to melta and devs that will give us the firepower we need?

I'm thinking of dakka preds with LC sponsons, but surely there is a better way.

I think that there is potential for sternguard to be useful. A pod isn't a huge divergence and they can get a bunch of shots off on the drop. Scout bikes could help if you have first turn...then again that's a pretty big if. Although they wouldn't be bad at coming in and getting back armor shots. a 4+ to pen is still a 4+ to pen against serpents.Whether its melta on the front or grenades to the back. Remember Meltaguns work fine on falcons and prisms. And if those have cover saves they probably are not shooting.

Cheers,
~Volkan

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:In my area the current meta is very Mechanized heavy... every army I see is mechanized (Orks, Tau, SM, IG, etc). I have more than enough vehicles to follow this trend with the new BA codex, but I have no desire to have another mechanized list next to my IG. Since mobility is such an important factor in 5th Edition, is it viable to use a Jump-Pack heavy list with little-to-none vehicular support?

So far I intend to use something of this sort (As I don't have the codex in my hands yet thanks to Alaska's phenomenally slow shipping speed, I'm not exact on the points yet):

Dante
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests with Jump Pack
3 Squads of 10 Assault Space Marines, with 2 Meltaguns
Death Company with Jump Packs


So, I'd like to discuss the merits of Jump Packs, as well as their shortfalls.

The floor is yours, gentlemen.

I'm also building an all infantry jump list with the new codex by converting a lot of Khorne Berzerkers into jump infantry with a winged Kharne model leading the army. I'm going to paint them as the Knights of Blood chapter, and I'm going to give the inquisition a laundry list of new and nasty things to say about the Knights of Blood.

At 35 points a model Death Company with jump packs completely suck. At 20 points a model they are a good mechanized unit, but the extra 15 points a model for jump packs kills the idea of jump pack death company.

35 points a model for a troops choice that can't score in the exact same list where 40 point Sanguinary Guard are also a troops choice that still counts as a scoring unit, has a 2+ armor save, and built in master crafted power weapons.

But death company has feel no pain....and so does Sanguinary Guard once a priest is added along with assault marines both of which are scoring units in an army with Dante.

But death company gets to re roll to wounds and well as to hits from their chaplain.....at twice the cost of an assault marine. If you want to force a large number of regular wounds 2 assault marines are better than 1 death company, if you want to force a large number of power weapon wounds 1.5 sanguinary guard are better than a 60 point death company armed with a power weapon.

But death company are relentless if I give up their bolt pistol for a bolter....and cost just as much as a bike that is T5, also has relentless, and can gain feel no pain + furious charge from a sanguinary priest.

Speaking of bikes they would have a good synergy with jump infantry, but are not a scoring unit. I might add some at 2500.

when i grab the new dex, and some assault marines, i wil ltel lyou how it goes

it seems posiable

I ran a dev squad in support of rushing rhinos and jump pack troops the other day. 3 ML. one Las, and a TL las on a razorback.

The Razorback could move 12 inches and still shoot its las, but it was 90 points....It did just pop transports all over the place, and lasted the whole game cause there was too much 'in your face' stuff demanding attention.

I think it was suggested early on...for Bikers to get FNP from Priest aura...conga line to give everyone cover saves behind them.

Then they turbo only 18" and have the Jump packs move and run behind them to keep the whole cover save thing going.

So basically the most vulnerable thing would be the bikers on turn one. This can be mitigated if you can obscure half the conga-lining squad with terrain or someother trash unit.

It's all theory for me at this point, but I do run a SMurf Biker army, so am interested in trying this out.

I have some Sanguard expierieince to share. Took 5 with a p-fist and a banner. attached a Libby, and aSanguinary priest....was assualted after the Deepstrike by 8 BT with BP/CC, and a P-fist...survived, wiped the BT squad, was then assualted by 8 more BT's with a pfist and EMP's Champ's, they killed a couple before they died. if you get the charge there bestial... and if they get charged by anything not geared to kill dedicated assualt troops in assuat, you'll wipe your opponents...

There amazing... if you like JP's... Sanguard are Bestial

Sanctjud wrote:I think it was suggested early on...for Bikers to get FNP from Priest aura...conga line to give everyone cover saves behind them.

Then they turbo only 18" and have the Jump packs move and run behind them to keep the whole cover save thing going.

So basically the most vulnerable thing would be the bikers on turn one. This can be mitigated if you can obscure half the conga-lining squad with terrain or someother trash unit.

It's all theory for me at this point, but I do run a SMurf Biker army, so am interested in trying this out.

I"m thinking the same. If I go 2nd turbo boost scout bikers 6" in front of the jump pack's priest with the scout move.
They will be T5 with feel no pain and a 3+ cover save.
The rest of the army will have a 4+ cover save from the scout bikers.

If I go 1st the scout bikes will probably turbo boost within assault range of enemy vehicles and do a turn 1 suicide assault against vehicles that have not moved yet.
Jump packs would advance 12" and run.
The scout bikes would then die from the turn 1 retaliation for blowing up the vehicles, but their job is to just blow up vehicle causing chaos and a distraction for the assault marines that will be on top of the enemy on turn 2.

Oh, that sounds cool as well, didn't even think of that. I was talking about normal Power Armored Bikers, but the scouts are alot more defensive in that they will always get that 3+ cover due to scouts.

Only thing that screws it hard are Drop podding hvy flamers/fast hvy flamers/aka Hellhound sorts of stuff....which there are a healthy amount out there. So I'm thinking maybe a mix of scout bikers and regular bikers to plan for that.

Nice to see you are experiencing some success! Good on ya mate.

: )

G

glad you are having success with yoru all jump pack list. Mine is currently in a vat of gren stuff getting stripped of 10 year old paint jobs.

My list looks something like this at 1500

HQ
JP Libby with cover power and blood talon

Elite
Sanguary priest jumppack (pw if points available)

FA
5 Vanguard packs TH 2 PW
5 Vanguard packs TH 2 PW

Troops
10 Assault marines packs 2 melta powerfist I pistol
10 Assault marines packs 2 melta powerfist I pistol
5 Assault marines packs melta power weapon hflamer

The bikes/speeder ideas do sound effective I may try them in later versions of my list after I test it out

Here's a revision, now that I finally got my codex in the mail yesterday:

HAMMER AND ANVIL

"Hammer"

Dante

Sanguinary Guard with PF and Chapter Standard

2 Assault Squads with 2 Meltaguns each (full tens)

"Anvil"

Assault Terminators with TH/SS combos in LR

Predator with TL Lascannon

1500 Points

At 1750 and up, I add attack bikes. At 2000 and up, I may think about adding librarians, death company, etc.

Here's one I just threw together:

Librarian - Jump Pack 125

Librarian - Jump Pack 125

Honor Guard w/ Jump packs Company Std & Champ - Squad: 1x PW, 1x Flamer 220

Honor Guard w/ Jump packs Company Std & Champ - Squad: 1x PW, 1x Flamer 220

3 Sanguinary Priests each with Jump packs 225
**Each SP joins an Assault Marine unit

9 Assault marines - 2x Melta guns
*Sgt Hand Flamer & PW 235

9 Assault marines - 2x Melta guns
*Sgt Hand Flamer & PW 235

9 Assault marines - 2x Melta guns
*Sgt Hand Flamer & PW 235

Land Speeder - TML 90

Land Speeder - MM/HF 70

Land Speeder - MM/HF 70

1850pts exactly

45 Jump Infantry 3x Landspeeders, 5 Sanguinary priests so every unit/model has FnP.

Although not a blood angels player, I have played against the new blood angels 4 times already, and sat in on two of the blood angels players in my group talking for about an hour on theories...

As of right now, in my opinion, a disciplined player could play with all of his 'infantry' being jump infantry. But i don't belive that at cut throat levels of competition that you could get by without heavy support.

In my mind, having no transports is enough of a radical departure, that you would still be rocking heavy theme even if you included some predators. Also remember that the models you are talking about bringing are rocking 3+ or 2+ armor followed by FNP. So don't worry that if you bring a tank or two that you are just giving them something to shoot their lascannons at. Those lascannons would LOVE to be shooting at the sanguinary guard.

I'd probably start every cut-throat, prison-rules blood angels army with three lascannon sponson destructors. But from there, you could certainly run dante/honor guard/sang guard/death company. Or Librarian/honor guard/assault marine/death company.

Having no idea how nasty your environment is, I can't say for sure what you'll "need". But I can say that so far, it looks like blood angels don't really need to be mechanized.... but then that is true of space wolves and space marines as well. If you weren't mechanized, you would want jump packs, much like the space wolves want to be cavalry and the space marines want to be riding bikes.

If you weren't mechanized, you would want jump packs, much like the space wolves want to be cavalry and the space marines want to be riding bikes.

Wow, so simple and yet it blew my mind

I get the worst of both sides in my meta.... I get the shooty-death of tau suit-heavy lists, and the unstoppable tide of greenskins. I don't face a lot of lascannons, which is fortunate for me, but I do face a lot of mid-strength firepower. I do wish that the Sang. Guard had an invul save, but if they did there would not ever be a reason to take terminators right? I guess that makes cover especially valuable to them. Its ok though... they'll be running with dante for precision deepstriking.

Its fun to talk theory on this all day long, but I guess I won't really know how it will do until I try it. However, I do realize now that it is unlikely that an ALL jump pack army will be competitive. You need a balance of synergy. Thanks for all the help guys!

I have played 8 games using heavy jump pack new BA. They do ok but are not suitable for tournaments. Wolfs alone will destroy a jump army by using hurrican. 24' radius take a dangerous terrian test taking off and landing please. That's 33% of your unit gone. We have no heavy slot that can compete with thier super cheap, split fire devistators and their spechial characters laugh at our spechial characters and kick sand in their faces.

Bad breaks with terrain will also screw a Jump army. If the enemy can sit so deep in difficult terrain that you need to land in it in order to assault say goodbye to 17% of your army before you even fire a shot.

Also uber CC units like Nightbringer can rip through assault marines like butter.

Jump packs are cool but not top tier. For that you need to mech spam... Sigh....

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but another pro for the all jump pack army:

DoA lets you reroll the units reserve roll, right? That will allow you to either commit more forces on turn two, or to try and prevent your army from coming in piece meal (i.e. that one unit that rolls a 5 on turn two againt that Master of the Fleet, try and keep him back them back in reserve). It gives a way to come down hard with most of your units, or to keep them back and punish those who hold in full reserve against you.

Is it enough to make it better than Mech? I have no idea, I haven't really played as Marines. But I like the idea and it can make a very potent finesse-esque army.

Russell wrote:I have played 8 games using heavy jump pack new BA. They do ok but are not suitable for tournaments. Wolfs alone will destroy a jump army by using hurrican. 24' radius take a dangerous terrian test taking off and landing please. That's 33% of your unit gone. We have no heavy slot that can compete with thier super cheap, split fire devistators and their spechial characters laugh at our spechial characters and kick sand in their faces.

Bad breaks with terrain will also screw a Jump army. If the enemy can sit so deep in difficult terrain that you need to land in it in order to assault say goodbye to 17% of your army before you even fire a shot.

Also uber CC units like Nightbringer can rip through assault marines like butter.

Jump packs are cool but not top tier. For that you need to mech spam... Sigh....

1) Drop-podding/jump packing Libby dreads or normal libbies should allow for good old hood proximity as well as murdering that runepriest + squad.

2) 6 longfangs should be halved in strength by the bolt pistol & meltagun fire. At the very least.. they will have the one turn of firing at your squad before they themselves get charged, rhino or no rhino.

3) 17% of an army will never happen because only models actually moving into terrain will be testing. Over exagerating is pointless.

4) The nightbringer does not have a jump back. You do. Good times!

Mech spam is tried and tested. They can easily be used well, in simple terms of moving one model compared to 10 as an example. I think this new assaulty BA codex will bring some really potent true non-mech armies to bare.

1) Drop-podding/jump packing Libby dreads or normal libbies should allow for good old hood proximity as well as murdering that runepriest + squad.

2) 6 longfangs should be halved in strength by the bolt pistol & meltagun fire. At the very least.. they will have the one turn of firing at your squad before they themselves get charged, rhino or no rhino.

3) 17% of an army will never happen because only models actually moving into terrain will be testing. Over exagerating is pointless.

4) The nightbringer does not have a jump back. You do. Good times!

1. Our hood works 33% of the time. How is a drop podded Dread (whose own jump ability will be shut down 50% of the time by the enemy rune priest) going to kill an entire squad on it's own? It will drop then it will either be shot to death on the Wolf players turn with his meltas or the priests rhino will move out of the dreads range (if the rune priests rhino is out of close melta range it is more than 12' away from the dread to start.)

2. A 140 pt 6 man dev squad in cover will not be shot in half by a 6 man jump squad with 1 melta. (equal cost units). they will kill one dev (the one without the missile launcher.) then get slapped with 5 crack or Frag missiles and no cover save (as they will not want to DS into cover). Even a full 10 man squad with 2 meltas kills just 1.4 devs which is hardly half and will still suck down 4-5 missiles.

3. Well this over exagerated scenario happened to me. There was 8" of dificult between me and his unit my entire 11 man squad had to test. I lost the sang priest (natch) and 3 other guys, assaulting counter charge grey hunters without the priest was a disaster but I was commited when I made the jump in.

4. The enemy warriros are right next to his Night bringer. with only jump packs you have no long ranged fire to put on the bringer, the only way to get to the warriors is to be in counter charge range of the bringer. You charge warriros you may or may not wipe them out, then bringer charges the jump pack unit and kicks it's ass.... Or what if the bringer is just sitting on the objective? with no long range firepower how are you going to shift it, you need to come into melta range, his invul and wounds means you won't kill him outright, he charges the unit and destroys it. Good times indeed.... (this senario is equally aplicable to assault termies or any other uber CC unit).

1) Yeah, runepriests are pretty powerful; If they field the right powers vs the right army.

2) You can ONLY field 6 longfangs. You should NEVER field 6 assault marines, if you can help it. I guess cover will indeed be abundant for the longfangs; Assault marines are a bad shooty example. Still; 4 rockets kills 2 marines without cover. Thats now 36pts worth of death. The assault marines basically eat the longfangs. No mech, fewer targets

3) Ah, the longer people use jump infantry the better you will get at avoiding potential pitfalls.

4) Necrons > Close combat > Phase out. Thanks to the sword power & a multitude of dread options, str 10 vs monoliths should not be a problem either. You ignore the nightbringer, like any other army. The deceiver would be alot more troublesome. And no, they dont die. Sadly.

Russell wrote:I have played 8 games using heavy jump pack new BA. They do ok but are not suitable for tournaments. Wolfs alone will destroy a jump army by using hurrican. 24' radius take a dangerous terrian test taking off and landing please. That's 33% of your unit gone. We have no heavy slot that can compete with thier super cheap, split fire devistators and their spechial characters laugh at our spechial characters and kick sand in their faces.

Bad breaks with terrain will also screw a Jump army. If the enemy can sit so deep in difficult terrain that you need to land in it in order to assault say goodbye to 17% of your army before you even fire a shot.

Also uber CC units like Nightbringer can rip through assault marines like butter.

Jump packs are cool but not top tier. For that you need to mech spam... Sigh....

The nightbringer is only I4.

Mathhammer for str 5 I5 attacks.
24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wounds
str 9 power fist attacks
6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.

Each assault squad should be able to cause 2 wounds to the nightbringer. If BA want to kill it a large volley of melta gun shots and a multi charge from multiple assault squads could kill it.

As far as hurricane is concerned jump infantry can choose to not use their jump packs when in range of hurricane.

Russell wrote:I have played 8 games using heavy jump pack new BA. They do ok but are not suitable for tournaments. Wolfs alone will destroy a jump army by using hurrican. 24' radius take a dangerous terrian test taking off and landing please. That's 33% of your unit gone. We have no heavy slot that can compete with thier super cheap, split fire devistators and their spechial characters laugh at our spechial characters and kick sand in their faces.

Bad breaks with terrain will also screw a Jump army. If the enemy can sit so deep in difficult terrain that you need to land in it in order to assault say goodbye to 17% of your army before you even fire a shot.

Also uber CC units like Nightbringer can rip through assault marines like butter.

Jump packs are cool but not top tier. For that you need to mech spam... Sigh....

I think you're over exaggerating, and your absolute statement that it is not viable is premature, especially when its based solely on one player's (yours) experience in only 8 games.

Psychic Hoods have a 42% chance to nullify a ld 10 enemy by my calculations (not 33%). If the opponent rolls a 1, its a 5/6 chance. If the opponent rolls a 2, its a 4/6 chance, and so on, giving you 15/36 possible rolls with two dice to nullify. This, ontop of an 84% chance to pass the initial test, gives the enemy psyker a 48% chance to pull the spell off.

As for landing in DT to assault, Im curious as to how a unit will be so deep in cover that your entire unit needs to land in. If its something like long fangs and theyre deep in terrain, theyll be giving cover saves to anything they shoot at. I dont see it being a problem, especially when you can land outside with the majority of the unit, reach combat with a few and then still have everyone attack.

Nightbringer rips everything apart, but is slow. How is he going to catch jump infantry, especially when the match his "move through buildings" ability.


I dont think pure jump packs are the best idea, because shooting is important too or it makes your army one dimensional. However, I think most of the army being jump packs can definitely be competitive.

Who brings crons to a competitive tournament these days anyway? So why bring up the nightbringer?

The main titan to topple is the Mechanized trend. Mech Guard, Mech Ork, Mech Eldar, Mech SM, its all in the current trend. Most of these lists are geared towards killing other mech lists, just because of the stupid prevalence of the trend. Taking a jump-pack list is beneficial in this case because you retain the mobility of vehicles without the risk of being shaken or immobilized. The downside is that they are more fragile.

schadenfreude wrote:As far as hurricane is concerned jump infantry can choose to not use their jump packs when in range of hurricane.

Huzzar!

Initial tests-games are looking good... took on a vanilla SM player today that was running a Mech list. Observations:

Sanguinary Guard are vicious with Death Masks. Worth every point. A Chapter Standard further increases their lethality.

Dante's pin-point deepstriking ability is quite handy, but honestly his points are just not worth it unless you are running multiple Sanguinary Guard units.

Descent of Angels allowing re-rolls on the reserve rolls is a godsend.

Sanguinary priests are worth every point when holding objectives.

Red thirst is awesome if you are running multiple Assault troops anyway. Furious charge and Fearless really help them perform their assaults.

Don't get charged, do the charging. Non-BA players take note. Sanguinary guard, when initiating the assault, get to strike first against most MEQs. Getting 4 attacks each with a Chapter Standard, coupled with Master Crafted power weapons, ensures that they'll put the hurt on in a charge. This is only exacerbated by the red thirst, in which they'll have even higher initiative and strength.

Deepstriking meltagun jump troops are awesome. In non-annihilation games, I like to combat-squad the assault squads into killer-teams that DS right at the 6" mark away from a tank or transport for easy vehicle kills. Dante is good at hitting the rear armor with his pinpoint deepstrike and 6" melta pistol.

Sanguinary Priests can get picked out of close combat, so keep them away from the front lines. Hide them as best as possible to ensure their continued coverage. The jump packs are expensive, but worth it if you are running a jump-spam list.

You still need an anchor to draw fire away from some of your units. I like to stick a single land raider in there. It pulls a lot of fire but has the armor to shrug most of it off, which buys time for the more fragile assault units to get where they need to. The TL Lascannons on a regular LR are good supporting weapons too.

Well that's about all I can remember right now, I'll figure out more as I get some more games in under my belt with the new codex.