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I just wrote a tactica article on my blog on alternatives to Mech lists, and I thought we could discuss it here as well since it ties in with JP spam.

http://foxphoenix40k.blogspot.com/2010/04/lets-talk-tactics-alternatives-to.html

I've found this thread and your blog an interesting read Makes me like 40k just a little more.

Thanks! So what do other people think about the article? About jump pack lists?

Played my 1st game with my all infantry blood angels list against bugs. Here are my initial conclusions:

#1: All ability of nids to jump massive amounts of wounds onto infantry doesn't amount to squad if it allows a 3+ armor save and FNP. I played against a very shooty list that lacked AP1/AP2 shots, and his shooting element of the army was severely handicapped by FNP.

#2: Lash Whip & Bone Sword warriors are the bane of the BA jump spam army's existence.

#3: At 1 wound and no invo sanguinary priests are a vulnerable Achilles heel of the BA jump spam army. A Vindicare assassin and/or abilities that can target individual models within an army like mind war or gift of chaos targeted at the sanguinary priest can really take the steam out of a BA jump spam army. Space Marines and IG should probably play with a Vindicare assassin more often.

Yea...but the Vindicare is a huge cost...both in points and in FOC.

To get the Vindicare you burn an Elite Slot and an HQ slot...crazy high opputunity cost just to snipe the priest... I'd think it would be easier just to shoot the squad alot and land some allocations onto the priest, else, kill FNP targets the good old fashioned way.

Valuable info, schadenfreude. Makes a lot of sense.

Sanctjud also has a point. You burn at least 2 elite slots, or a HQ and an elite, just to get the one assassin. If the BA player has more than one sanguinary priest, it will take the vindicare multiple turns to take them out anyway so it won't be terribly helpful.

Sounds like the best way to kill them is to single them out in CC. That's a dangerous prospect, though.

@FoxPheonix135:
Actually no. It's exactly One HQ slto and One Elite slot. It's in the DH or WH FAQ.
Can't use a DH Elite Inquisitor for a WH Assassin and vice versa.

In addition the Vindicare can:
A. Miss.
B. Fail to wound.
C. Not have Line of Sight.

Foxphoenix are you still deadset on all jump army? Looks like you might be looking at other options now.

I am running with two barebone Stormravens (extra armor, TL las, TL MM)... They are very powerful and very helpful for small elite jump units such as SG & HG.

My advice is keep one squad of SG & add an HG squad for the cheap priest. Load up on as much melta as possible. Bring a power fist in every unit. To me a Stormraven is so much better than a pred.

G

@Sanctjud: Oh, I didn't realize that was FAQ'd.

@Black Blow Fly: No I now realize that an all Jump-pack army, while thematically neat, does not perform all that well. However, I am trying to minimize the number of vehicles used in my lists, unless they have high armor values (such as land raiders).

I am in the process of painting up my honor guard right now, as well as my sanguinary guard. I only had one priest so I decided to go with the HG all the same.

I'll be going to the alaska preliminaries of 'Ard Boyz, so I'm already starting to put together some ideas. It will be jump-pack HEAVY, but not pure jump pack. I'm going to wait a bit on the StormRavens though, since it appears that GW didn't learn their lesson from the valkyrie about flying bases, disembarking etc etc. I'll wait until the GW FAQ or errata gets released. (Or whatever the 'Ard Boyz is going to use.)

I'm going to gather more experience with this codex before figuring out a list, but I'll be releasing it soon.

I think the Stormraven is the best armor in the book by far. For 215 points you get:

• extra armor
• TL lascannon
• TL multi-melta
• 4x Bloodstrike missile (S8, AP1, 72" R)

The Stormraven can deepstrike and fire two weapons!

I am planning to mount mine on the flight stand that comes with the Vendetta/Valkyrie kit, that way there should be no problems with the rules.

I am also a big fan of both Sanguinary Guard & Honor Guard. To me the Stormraven perfectly suits these two units and adds the armored element missing from an all jump infantry list. You of course can also transport a dreadnaught and what better way to get it where you need it most? I realize this gunship is vulnerable to long range firepower but it's perfectly suited for alpha striking.

G

I would be extremely interested to see a list that utilizes a few dreadnoughts with an entirely jump-pack infantry core.

Specifically, to keep up with the theme & field an awesome unit.. Furioso Librarians. Av13 Jump infantry dreadnought seems pretty lethal, nearly as fast as a fast vehicle & can assault 18" away. I think the sweet stop is 2-3 (depending on slot selection of that Sanguine Priest, elites or HQ) furioso dreads with another single drop-pod heavy support dread.

Turn 2 and one dread will be able to assault, the two/three others may be able to (15+18 = 33" total), along with the special-weapon firepower from 2-4 Assault squads. Trying to stop two AV13/12/10 walkers with smoke before they charge you (or atleast the field becomes alot more cluttered) seems quite a task.

Whilst there are some seriously fun options; 215pt stormravens are some serious autocannon fodder if you end up going second as well as tieing (how do you spell the verb of tie?) up alot of points within a list. Although a no brainier in higher point games.

So, personally, I think an entirely jump-pack themed list is viable.

Stelek posted a list up on his blog that focused around 4 jump squads, with 4 chaplains (2 of them reclusiarchs) and 3 sanquinary priests.

I think the list would be better with more bodies, but it's a good example of what jump-pack spam can do: drown you in fast FNP, Furious-charging maniacs.

I am not sold on a completely jump army for the following reasons:

FNP is great versus small arms fire but does nothing for you versus low AP ordnance. A couple of solid shots from a demolisher could wreck the army. You need some hard cover versus armies such as IG.

The same thing applies to armies that can generate a lot of close combat attacks that ignore armor saves. I am thinking daemons and Tyranid hordes with multiple MCs lurking within a sea of gaunts/genestealers.

Assault units are great at moving forward & and taking objectives but not good at sitting still and holding them. That's why I prefer a mix myself. The Stormraven offers the best method of dropping your dreads where you need them with some support.

The Vindicare is not that much at 110 points. A space marine list just isn't going to fill an elites slot for less than 110 points. Space marine HQs are just as expensive as an inquisitor so the loss of an HQ to an inquisitor with a psychic hood and mystics over taking a space marine librarian is a sacrifice many space marine players are willing to make.

It's difficult, but not impossible to force wounds onto a priest in a 10 man squad.

If the wounds ignore FNP and a wound is forced onto the priest the squad is already wiped out by AP1/AP2 firepower.

If the wounds don't ignore FNP then forcing 11 wounds need to be forced onto the squad for a 1/6 chance of the priest failing his armor and FNP rolls, and it takes 22 wounds to force a 2nd wound onto the priest.

A Vindicare isn't the end all b all for killing priests, but if a marine/IG army is going to take an inquisitor anyways...

Why worry about Feel No Pain? Haven't you people played Plague Marines? Plasma weapons not only ignore Power Armour, Artificer Armour, and give Terminator Armour a run for its money, but it ignores Feel No Pain.

In fact the game is replete with weapons that ignore Feel No Pain and Sv3+. Battle Cannons, Demolisher Cannons, Winds of Chaos.

I can't wait until I get to cast Winds of Chaos in conjunction with Warptime on a unit of Blood Angels containing a Sanguinary Priest.

"Hey, you can't feel any pain? That's okay, this doesn't hurt a bit."

non-ig armies are limited in the amount of special weapons they can take.. most rely on AP4-5 guns to do the job which marines with FNP can easily take.. So yes, you die to special weapons but are so much better off vs the bulk of the enemy army

I love my storm raven now that I got it built and painted.. Only vehicle in the game that can move 24", get a cover save by moving fast and fire a TL-MM in the face of a vehicle.. If it dies, so what you have FNp terminators in your grill .. and if it doesnt, you're going to be hurting even more

I also like the deep strike and fire 2 weapons idea..

Im having great luck using a mix of assault marines in rhinos, librarians, then also having atleast 1 jump pack squad backed up with furioso or terminators and some tanks. Oh, and any strategy that includes the use of a vindicare really isnt a strategy at all.. That guy has such a high theoryhammer rating yet such a low practical use rating its scary

Block LOS with any model to his target and hes pretty useless!

Yeah I don't see the Vindicare happening.

G

How about:
2000 pts

librarian, JP, shield of sanguinius, bloodlance. 125

3 X sang priests w/ JP 225

3X sang priests w/ JP 225

10 assault marines, TH, 2X melta 240

10 assault marines, TH, 2X melta 240

10 assault marines, TH, 2X melta 240

10 assault marines, PF, 2X melta 235

10 assault marines, PF, 2X melta 235

10 assault marines, PF, 2X melta 235


67 jumping troops, 5+ cover for the first line for weathering fire if you get first turn, and the ability to combat squad into 12 DoA melta teams for if you are second. Probably not the best competative build ever, but takes the term "jumptroop spam" pretty far.

I'm thinking of taking this list to hardboyz just for fun, because it is ridiculously stupid in its fun factor:

Mephiston w/Honor Guard
Dante w/ Sanguinary Guard
Assault Termies w/4 TH/SS in Land Raider (crusader?)
2 Full Assault Squads, 2 Meltas each
2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos
Scout squad with locator beacon

1. Reserve everything but mephiston, 2 tac squads, and the scouts. Mephiston and the tac squads move around, looking like they're accomplishing things.

Meanwhile, infiltrating scout squad brings in a deepstriking land raider full of assault termies. I'm thinking its going to be a crusader (only because I don't have a redeemer) with a multi-melta on it.

Also, Dante Pinpoint-strikes with his sang. Guard.

Honor guard drop in behind land raider (hopefully) to give the termies FNP, or near a tactical squad (as situation demands).

Assault squads have been combat squadded, and rain from the sky in single-shot kill teams, hoping to kill vehicles on the DS with close-range melta shots. If there are not many vehicles in his list, then I don't have to combat squad him.

2. ???

3. Profit!


Seriously though, it's kind of like a drop pod list, but better (IMO). Deepstriking meltas hitting all over the map will ruin somebody's day, as will a land raider chock-full-of-assault-termies landing on your doorstep will.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:I played a test game tonight (against my poor wife's sisters of battle) using the Descent of Angels rule... and I must say I love having multiple kill-teams of 5 men with 1 melta gun... the D6 scatter put them nearly spot on every time. Even allied land raiders couldn't handle meltagunners appearing all around it.

Keep in mind you can't Combat Squad your units if you Deep Strike them in via their Jump Packs. You can only opt to Combat Squad when the unit is Deployed, with the one exception being a unit that came in via a Drop Pod.

Are you serious? I have been playing that totally wrong then. Thanks for informing me of that, as that would be embarassing, trying to play that way at an event and being called a cheater or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm... I'm confused: when reading the special rule in the BA codex, it doesn't say anything that would prevent them from doing that. It just says upon deployment is when it is declared, just like reserves are, correct? So wouldn't it go like this: "This assault squad is combat squads, and will arrive via deepstrike." said during the deployment phase?

The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod - the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks.

Not During Deployment, when the unit is Deployed. If you keep it in reserves, then it's not deployed, and can't be Combat Squaded, baring the One exception of Drop Pod. It's really a super common mistake that I've seen.

Ah that would explain it. So you don't deploy when it is deepstriking... that sounds weird but makes since from that arbitrary RAW standpoint.

Id like to point out page 94 bottom left.. "once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it"

Sounds to me that deploys would count as deploy-ment.. I suppose it doesnt specifically say "deployment" but they share a fairly similar root word!

The drop pod exception is to allow 2 units to embark in a single transport btw not to get around the "deployment" phrase

Anyway enough you make the call nonsense.. I also like the idea of deep striking meltas.. provided you have units nearby to assault the guys who come out of transports

Yeah, I made a post in the YMDC forum about it... I'm sure Gwar will set us straight when he wakes up tomorrow

I try not to read the TMDC forum honestly :p most of those arguments never would come in game between reasonable people .. 90% of the forum is internet only stuff heh

Kirasu wrote:Id like to point out page 94 bottom left.. "once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it"

Touché good sir. I never noticed reserves was worded that way. Means my friend go screwed over in the 2008 Ard Boyz semi finals, which was the origin of my mistake. Don't tell anyone from my FLGS!! I'm supposed to be infalible!!

That does make for some interesting thoughts none the less. You'd roll for both with one roll, then hoosegow to split them or not right before hey come in.

yeah.. Ive been playing it a bit wrong too, since i split them up and rolled separately

While I think that jump units are fine in a BA army, I think you're absolutely nuts if you're intentionally foregoing their vehicle options.

The Baal Pred with AC/HBs is, quite frankly, one of the best firepower platforms I've ever played with. And being Fast gives the Vindicator a whole new outlook on life.

I don't think I could make a BA list without the vehicles. They just add too much oomph for a 150 point price range.

Nurglitch wrote:Why worry about Feel No Pain? Haven't you people played Plague Marines? Plasma weapons not only ignore Power Armour, Artificer Armour, and give Terminator Armour a run for its money, but it ignores Feel No Pain.

In fact the game is replete with weapons that ignore Feel No Pain and Sv3+. Battle Cannons, Demolisher Cannons, Winds of Chaos.

I can't wait until I get to cast Winds of Chaos in conjunction with Warptime on a unit of Blood Angels containing a Sanguinary Priest.

"Hey, you can't feel any pain? That's okay, this doesn't hurt a bit."

Battle Cannons are the only weapon you listed there that will get past feel no pain, but not terminator armor.
Power armor + FNP is almost as good as terminator armor. The only time terminator armor is better is against STR 8+ hits that are not AP2.
FNP MEQ is almost terminator armor, which is why some players like it so much.

There are 2 schools of thought for killing MEQ, and those are AP2 shots or mass wounds.
There isn't much MEQ can do against AP2 shots, but in the current meta game plasmas have fallen out of favor as most players prefer melta.
FNP works great against mass wounds for sources such as ork boys, lootas, tyranid shooting, Chimera spam, dire avengers, and most CC units.