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"At the start of your turn, as long as the model with the regeneration biomorph is still alive, roll a D6 for each Wound suffered. For every 6 that is rolled, the model recovers a single lost Wound."

"A Mawloc, at any point during it's Movement phase, elect to re-burrow provided it is not engaged in close combat. If a Mawloc chooses to do so remove it from the table and place it back in reserve. It automatically re-emerges via Deep Strike during your net Movement phase. Note that a Mawloc cannot Deep Strike and burrow in the same turn."

So a Mawloc gets all shot up on the block in the enemy turn, at the start of my turn I don't roll any 6's, I elect to burrow. At the start of my next turn, while the Mawloc is still in reserve, do I "...roll a D6 for each Wound suffered. For every 6 that is rolled, the model recovers a single lost Wound." since the Mawloc "...is still alive," or does being in reserve stop the regeneration effect?

It is unclear one way or the other and there is no clear RaW answer.

You have to clear it with your opponent pre game.

On the other hand since models not on the table are not considered in play, nothing happens until it returns to the table.
Thats just my common sense talking ignore it if you want.

I think someone else had gotten an answer from GW box-stuffers along the lines of "models in reserve are not considered in-game until they arrive" so the Mawloc can't regenerate...

Though it's absolutely not RAW and not in the actual rules. So clear it with your opponent.

"Models in reserve are not considered in game till they arive" is great, however the wording in the codex says 'Alive'...

the argument then becomes, is the unit alive in reserve?

This is typical GW tomfoolery that needs the FAQ.

I think this is one of the "It makes sense but RaW doesn't quite handle it". It makes sense that it can regenerate even though the "At the beginning of your turn" comes before "Beginning of movement phase" and the Mawloc is under ground. Just ask your opponent if he thinks that the mawloc can regenerate even though it is underground.

It's alive, so yes. While the rules don't define 'alive', they do define death and casualties.

This 'models not on the table provide no effect' bit is getting ridiculous.

Does Pedro Cantor give Stubborn while in reserve? Does Shrike give Fleet while in reserve? Can Kor'Sarro Khan and his White Scars outflank? Do weapons only become master-crafted once Vulkan He'Stan has arrived on the battlefield? Do the abilities stop once the Chapter Masters are dead? How does Descent of Angels work - the Blood Angels aren't in play when they Deep Strike.

Gwar! wrote:It is unclear one way or the other and there is no clear RaW answer.

You have to clear it with your opponent pre game.

OMG. What is going on? I havn't been on the forums much, and I come back and Gwar dosn't have a clear RAW answer? Is this the end of the universe as we speak?

I would say when he is in reserve, he is still "alive" and gets to roll. Is there a rule that prevents units in reserve from having any effects? I remember there were some rules that even if in reserve they still take effect.

forkbanger wrote:It's alive, so yes. While the rules don't define 'alive', they do define death and casualties.

This 'models not on the table provide no effect' bit is getting ridiculous.

Does Pedro Cantor give Stubborn while in reserve? Does Shrike give Fleet while in reserve? Can Kor'Sarro Khan and his White Scars outflank? Do weapons only become master-crafted once Vulkan He'Stan has arrived on the battlefield? Do the abilities stop once the Chapter Masters are dead? How does Descent of Angels work - the Blood Angels aren't in play when they Deep Strike.

Most of those rules you mentioned talk about "if an army includes(insert name here) then all (insert name here) use the special rule (insert name here)"

NOT
While (insert name here) is alive, ...

Nightwatch wrote:Most of those rules you mentioned talk about "if an army includes(insert name here) then all (insert name here) use the special rule (insert name here)"

NOT
While (insert name here) is alive, ...

If you include special character then all units in your army blah blah blah...

Include as what? Include as an HQ choice? Include as a Space Marine? If they become a casualty, the rulebook says they play no further part in the game. Do Space Marines forget thair chapter abilities? The Codex says nothing to override the casualty effects in the rule book.

RAW: ????
RAI: I think its supposed to work while burrowed.
HIWPI: I allow it to regen underground, its an expensive ability that doesnt do much, and to be TFG over it is not worth the effort when there is no RAW to argue.

forkbanger wrote:It's alive, so yes. While the rules don't define 'alive', they do define death and casualties.

This 'models not on the table provide no effect' bit is getting ridiculous.

Does Pedro Cantor give Stubborn while in reserve? Does Shrike give Fleet while in reserve? Can Kor'Sarro Khan and his White Scars outflank? Do weapons only become master-crafted once Vulkan He'Stan has arrived on the battlefield? Do the abilities stop once the Chapter Masters are dead? How does Descent of Angels work - the Blood Angels aren't in play when they Deep Strike.

while I think that the Mawloc should be able to regen after it tunnels back under ground during the game, I think your analogies are flawed. for Chapter Tactics, at the beginning of the game you swap that out for whatever relevant rule you want to bring up, thus, if chapter master dies the abilities do not stop working because each individual has them written into their ability list. This is not a valid argument for why the Mawloc can regenerate. I think the closest method of explanation is that the ability has to do something and the mawloc from the RAW design could very well be underground each time he is able to use his regen ability. Since his regen ability has to do something, it should be allowed to work while underground, otherwise the ability would be completely worthless.

So my IG advisors work from in Reserves, providing +1/-1 to Reserves rolls since they work as long as they are alive? For some reason it seems like everyone insists they have to be on the table (ie in play) for it to work.............. Even the INAT says no:
+IG.31A.02 -- Q: Does the Astropath's ability still apply while the model is in reserve?
A: No, as the ability doesn‟t specify that it can be used while not in play [clarification].
Ref: IG.31C.01, TYR.34B.04, TYR.56G.02

So based on that, then no, it does not work while the model is removed from play (ie back into Reserves) since the ability does not specifiy that it works when not in play.

visavismeyou wrote:

forkbanger wrote:It's alive, so yes. While the rules don't define 'alive', they do define death and casualties.

This 'models not on the table provide no effect' bit is getting ridiculous.

Does Pedro Cantor give Stubborn while in reserve? Does Shrike give Fleet while in reserve? Can Kor'Sarro Khan and his White Scars outflank? Do weapons only become master-crafted once Vulkan He'Stan has arrived on the battlefield? Do the abilities stop once the Chapter Masters are dead? How does Descent of Angels work - the Blood Angels aren't in play when they Deep Strike.

while I think that the Mawloc should be able to regen after it tunnels back under ground during the game, I think your analogies are flawed. for Chapter Tactics, at the beginning of the game you swap that out for whatever relevant rule you want to bring up, thus, if chapter master dies the abilities do not stop working because each individual has them written into their ability list. This is not a valid argument for why the Mawloc can regenerate. I think the closest method of explanation is that the ability has to do something and the mawloc from the RAW design could very well be underground each time he is able to use his regen ability. Since his regen ability has to do something, it should be allowed to work while underground, otherwise the ability would be completely worthless.

I don't know that this is a strong enough argument either. The Mawloc is going to be on the board about half the game even if you stay out of CC and burrow at every possible opportunity as you can't Burrow on the same turn you Deep Strike.

don_mondo wrote:+IG.31A.02 -- Q: Does the Astropath's ability still apply while the model is in reserve?
A: No, as the ability doesn‟t specify that it can be used while not in play [clarification].

So based on that, then no, it does not work while the model is removed from play (ie back into Reserves) since the ability does not specifiy that it works when not in play.

So Descent of Angels does what, exactly? Nothing, as the models aren't in play?

forkbanger wrote:

don_mondo wrote:+IG.31A.02 -- Q: Does the Astropath's ability still apply while the model is in reserve?
A: No, as the ability doesn‟t specify that it can be used while not in play [clarification].

So based on that, then no, it does not work while the model is removed from play (ie back into Reserves) since the ability does not specifiy that it works when not in play.

So Descent of Angels does what, exactly? Nothing, as the models aren't in play?

Works for me. Altho I'd say that since it specifically spells out that it grants a reroll to a particular roll, then it grants that reroll regardless. But you can play it any way you want to..........

Seriphis wrote:"Models in reserve are not considered in game till they arive" is great, however the wording in the codex says 'Alive'...

the argument then becomes, is the unit alive in reserve?

This is typical GW tomfoolery that needs the FAQ.

And if its not alive while in reserve I guess its dead and therefore cant do anything

That is a fallacy.

Much like Schroedingers Cat the unit can be, at least according to th e rules, in an indeterminate state.

"Not alive while in Reserve" does not equal "Dead in Reserve".

This is not really an argument pertaining to the discussion. Merely pointing something out.

Steelmage99 wrote:That is a fallacy.

Much like Schroedingers Cat the unit can be, at least according to th e rules, in an indeterminate state.

"Not alive while in Reserve" does not equal "Dead in Reserve".

This is not really an argument pertaining to the discussion. Merely pointing something out.

true, the lack of a condition does not entail the existence of some other condition, however, the lack of some bivalent condition does in fact entail the existence of its opposite. Schroedinger's cat is not applicable and is not a philosophical principle, it is a physical conundrum speaking to the effects of the uncertainty principle of sub atomic particles which is inapplicable.

If you assert that the mawloc is not considered alive while off of the table and therefore cannot use the regen ability, you are asserting it must be considered dead, since this is nonsensical, the mawloc is still alive.

still alive...
still alive...

was this a triumph?

visavismeyou wrote:
true, the lack of a condition does not entail the existence of some other condition, however, the lack of some bivalent condition does in fact entail the existence of its opposite. Schroedinger's cat is not applicable and is not a philosophical principle, it is a physical conundrum speaking to the effects of the uncertainty principle of sub atomic particles which is inapplicable.

Yes. I see you also know what Shroedingers cat is about. Gratz.

If you assert that the mawloc is not considered alive while off of the table and therefore cannot use the regen ability, you are asserting it must be considered dead, since this is nonsensical, the mawloc is still alive.

still alive...
still alive...

was this a triumph?

Of sorts.

It's nothing to do with the uncertainty principle, more to the existence of a super position of states until the state is fixed in place. Uncertainty is being unable to tell precisely the velocity AND position of a particle at the same time.

In this case if you assume there are only two possible states, alive and dead, then not dead == alive.

However GW muddy this by having "alive but not on the table" as a third option, meaning the equivalency does not hold.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's nothing to do with the uncertainty principle, more to the existence of a super position of states until the state is fixed in place. Uncertainty is being unable to tell precisely the velocity AND position of a particle at the same time.

I see you know your Heisenberg.

*Heisenberg is out driving. "Route 88, check.....gotta turn off at next exit, check.
He gets pulled over by a cop. "Sir, did you know you vere doing 90 miles per hour?"
"Damn!", Heisenberg exclaims "Now I am lost!".

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's nothing to do with the uncertainty principle, more to the existence of a super position of states until the state is fixed in place. Uncertainty is being unable to tell precisely the velocity AND position of a particle at the same time.

In this case if you assume there are only two possible states, alive and dead, then not dead == alive.

However GW muddy this by having "alive but not on the table" as a third option, meaning the equivalency does not hold.

But there is no uncertainty in the present discussion... Thus, my point that it is inapplicable is still valid. There is no third state either, GW did not muddy this, players have. "Alive but not on the table" is the exact same as alive (read: they are identical in the present context), thus the mawloc is allowed to use the ability as it satisfies the only condition in the rulebook for using it.

If alive, then can use

Except that isnt correct. See the IG Advisors - while off the table their ability, which is predicated on them being alive, does not work.

Hence saying RAW is unclear, and that GW added a third option of "alive but not on the table", therefore the equivalency does not work.

I'll admit I don't know the answer and this should be FAQed to make our lives easier. I'd lean towards Mawlocs can, but it should be discussed with your opponent beforehand so there's no debate in the middle of the game when you're supposed to be having fun throwing dice.

However, I do want to add that as a Physics major and a 40k player, this thread has made me a very happy camper

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that isnt correct. See the IG Advisors - while off the table their ability, which is predicated on them being alive, does not work.

GW has never said that. You are quoting the INAT FAQ.

GW has yet to define "alive". I'm banking on that definition coming with the nid FAQ. Hive Commander, regenerate, astropath, fleet officers will all either be left as is or retroactively changed to work off-table based on how they rule.

this seems to have gotten rather philosophical.... or however its spelled. i have no clue what half of this is saying....but my 2 cents:

cent 1: mawloc not dead (ie not loosing all its wounds) = alive and therefore able to regen. seems to fit its fluff and such.
cent 2: in response to the cat and the speeding guy: "fire bad, tree pretty"