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So I've been kicking around all my ork models lately and decided I might go back to them after the next 2 weekends. So here is what I came up with:

Big Mek-110 (In Wagon w/Burnas)
PK, KFF

Big Mek-85
KFF

11 Burnas-165

3 Nobz-200
1xBig Choppa, Battlewagon w/Deffrolla, Plank, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota

3 Nobz-200
1xBig Choppa, Battlewagon w/Deffrolla, Plank, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota

Troops

Deff Dread-105
4xDCCW

Deff Dread-105
4xDCCW

20 Boyz-160
Nob w/PK, Boyz w/Shootas and 1 Big Shoota

20 Boyz-160
Nob w/PK, Boyz w/Shootas and 1 Big Shoota

19 Boyz-154
Nob w/PK, Boyz w/Slugga and Choppa

19 Boyz-154
Nob w/PK, Boyz w/Slugga and Choppa

Heavy Support

Battlewagon-140
Deffrolla, Kannon, Grot Riggers, Armored Plates, Plank

3 Killa Kanz-135
3xGrotzookas

3 Killa Kanz-135
3xGrotzookas

So what do you guys think? It's got a solid face punch and massive survivability. The Nobz debark turn 1 and a boy unit embarks. Giving me 52 Assault models in wagonz w/3 PK's. Followed up by 8 walkers and 40 more boyz. All protected by a KFF all game. Let me know what you guys think.

The lack of solid anti-tank long range capability is alittle distressing. How about turning those Kill Kan Grotzookas into rokkit launchas?

Agreed You should throw rokkits on those boyz. Im not too sold on rokkits with Killa Kanz,try playing some games with the Kanz without any weps on and use count as rules. See what works...and im a big fan of your work(painting)!!!

Few objections to your list:

1. You have a couple battlewagons in there (dedicated transports) who don't have a gun. Not even a 5 point big shoota - you need one, if for nothing else than to suffer through a weapon destroyed result without stopping your mobility.

2. The killa-kans need rokkits for anti-tank. You *have* anti-troop galore across your army.

3. Worse, killa-kans are hard to make work in a mechanized list like this - they move at a slower speed, and can't match the battlewagons for speed and ability to get to targets.

4. Battlewagons are either sitting still and shooting, or moving 12" to deliver their payload to their target. A kannon is 5 points more expensive than a big shoota - if you're firing it, you're probably doing something wrong, since its the only gun on your battlewagon...of which I should remind you, a couple don't even have any.

5. 3 Nobs. Interesting. I think that every unit in an ork list should serve a purpose. What purpose do yours serve? Just to get the battlewagon? Is dropping 65 points on 3 models who can't stand up for themselves in combat, can't shoot, or do anything particularly useful going to really serve your goals? You could get those battlewagons in your heavy support slots and put the boyz in there.

6. Killa-kans are awesome; no argument there. Dreads....eh. We've talked about them. But against....trying to mesh those into a mechanized list....you're going at two different speeds here, and either the vehicles are going to dawdle in getting to the enemy, or your dreads/kans are going to get left behind.

7. My goal in writing ork army lists is in making a balanced list capable of answering any threat. How are you going to fight Eldar? Dark Eldar? Tau? There's two serious weaknesses; the first is that you don't have any speedy units (deffkoptas) to zoom up and engage suits / broadsides / turn1 assault vehicles....and the second is that skimmers (all those above armies) can turbo-boost up in front of you and stop the battlewagon wall. If you're locking them in tight together, they can't rotate to tank shock/ram, and if they're spread out, you're opening yourself up to side armor shots. So what happens when I play Dark Eldar against you, and I take two empty 55 point raiders, boost 24" across the field, and park them in front of your KFF wagons? Or just one? a 3+ save and you're stuck in place.

8. Grabbin' Klaws. They're nice for every time you boarding plank a vehicle and fail. Next turn...it ain't going nowhere. And for the skimmers that block you physically from advancing? Even more useful.

9. Lootas: Feels like you've got glaring weaknesses to any army that plays ranged firepower or fast attack. Thinking of my DE again, I imagine us having two turns where I shoot you and kill a vehicle or two. Followed by a turn where I turbo-boost across the field to stay away from you. Followed by move and shoot. I thin kI'd have a greatly fun time playing against this list with the DE list that YOU helped me build. That I'm bringing this coming weekend to the GT. Even 5 Loota units have anti-tank capabilities, and can reduce the threat to your wagons....whose mobility is of the greatest importance. Anything you can do to protect them from losing their mobility will help.

0200, time for sleep, so the rant will have to stop here; other folks will talk to you about deathstars, MCs, bosspoles, daemons, lightning claws.....min/maxing, etc.

<3 Hulksmash

1) Updated to show actual Big shootas. The points had been added in but I forgot to write them in.

2) It's 30 more points for the kannons. I fully expect to be running the kanz most rounds and when I don't I like the Grotzookas for the sheer amount of hits they can land. And it's not a huge percentage boost against AV11 which is all I'd use those rokkits for.

3) Don't need the kanz to match speeds. It's a two wave smash. Basically half of my army is capable of taking midfield and holding it while the other half of my force is designed to push into the enemy deployment zone.

4) Battlewagons are still delivery systems. Forgot to write in the gun on the top two but that was an oopsy. The two units of 19 slugga boyz hop in on the first turn and go on the offensive. The wagons then drive around and hopefully deffrolla any vehicles that are a threat to my forces. And I like the kannon. I'm willing to pay 5 more points to have a chance at the random time I shoot it to take out a transport better. I would have put it on all 3 but didn't have the points

5) The nobs are there to get the Battlewagons. They also have the ability if I leave them in there to attack using the planks but otherwise they really are just there to use as a throw away unit to give me a chance to set the boyz up for the right charge.

6) Dreads and Kanz are never left behind. They are with the secondary force. I don't need to hit all at once with this list. Basically the BW force hits them hard enough that they don't have enough left to take the mid from me. And a lot of people have an issues taking out 8 Walkers and 3 BW's all of which are KFF covered.

7) Don't need the turn 1 engagement. As for play eldar and DE that is actually where the style of list comes into play. I won't get into theoryhammer but I've considered what you put there and a two prong approach leaves them very few places to run.

8) To many points in a vehicle. It started to get crazy so out they went

9) Hate them. Won't use them. Don't think they add enough to drop kanz to fit in more BW's in heavy support.

As for your list we can play test it while your here in real life if you like I have the list for the most part already built for funsies but I think you'll be surprised by the way the list plays. No it's not in your normal wheel house for style of play but I think it has a ton of advantages against the Mech armies of 5th Edition.

And as for Deathstars units I can swamp, avoid, or tarpit them. MC's are a little harder but same concept just bigger. Only Tyrannids run enough MC's to make me worry and I still think I could take them. Bosspoles might make it into the final part of my list since it's large squads and they help but I'll be tweaking it as I go. This is basically the rough draft of my next army. My wolves are fun but I think I've tweaked them pretty hard at 2k and need something else to mess with

If you plan on running the kans and dreads why not take the zookas off and put on big shootas? It frees up 30 pts, trim 10pts somewhere else and you can add a grot squad to hold your objective. Grots are also really usefull against bugs. The slaver can reduce an attack from a MC and the grots can act as a speed bump for you boys - allowing the boys to charge and not get charged.

I think the 2 wave attack works very good with orks (I know I'm committing heresy for saying that.) It stops people from concentrating their fire and makes them spread out. You'll find opponets taking desperate shots at you BW's with ML when they should be shooting at your Kans.

On another note about the big shootas, big shootas knock down DE raiders just fine and - STR 5 and 36 inch range. Add in the BS 3 for grots and you're looking good.

DashofPepper hit most of the things I was thinking (and a couple I didn't) so yeah deffdreads are meh, espesialy at 105 points each. I never give a big mek a PK because of the conflict of interest. His KFF does nothing in cc so why put him there? It looks like you could benifit from some fast attack, think about single deth koptas. If you play killpoints alot forget it, but in objective of other games they are invaluble for silencing devatators/broadsides, for a turn or two.

Hulk,

I can't ignore Dash's wisdom with Orklists, but I play against Orks all the time and Gitsnak's been tooling with 2 kannons in his lists. They do a really good job for the point cost it does better than one big shoota against troops (usually) and it has harried my skimmers more than once.

I think it's a negligible use of points that may do you well.

The rest of the list... I leave that alone as most of the input you got seems solid, but remember sometimes a list is about how you play it. You may curb some weakness by playstyle or generalship that we can't see.

I give advice to Hulksmash very carefully.

I think he's probably one of the best Warhammer 40k players in the world, and I hold him in some measure of awe - I can count the number of people I have never been able to beat in a game of 40k on one finger. I'm wary about giving him advice because he's probably already thought of it. ><

Dreads and kanz in fast lists tend to work just fine to be honest.
Im running a basic list at the moment with 2 dreads (3 DCCW and skorcha each) and 6 kanz (3 rokkitz, 3 skorchas) as my slow stompy part.

Also have a wagon full of burna boyz, 2 trukk boyz units and a 8 man warbike unit.

Generally the fast units hold an army in place and stop most of the shooting, allowing the kanz and dreadz to walk into combat without a stray las popping them.

As for the kannon on the wagon: Why not? recently ive been trying different layouts on my wagon rather than the basic one i used to take.
Actually found that zzap gunz are worth thier weight in gold most of the time.



Only real crit i have is the random arse klaw on the KFF mek
He shouldnt be in combat.
And also, wheres the red paint? never fails to earn its cost back.





Also, along the line of wagon army's, i should be trying out a 8 wagon list, so ill post how that goes

HQ - warboss x2
Elite - 3 x3 nobz with 3 wagonz
troop - 2x3 nobz with 2 wagonz
heavy - 3 wagonz


I know, units of 3 nobz dont have a ton of use, but the wagon is the only focus.
and with 8 of them tank shocking about all game, it could be amusing.

Dashofpepper wrote:I give advice to Hulksmash very carefully... I'm wary about giving him advice because he's probably already thought of it. ><

I think a lot of us know the weaknesses (at least the over-arching ones like lack of anti-tank or too many points in one vehicle etc) before we post. Sometimes it's about sanity checks and minor tweaks.
Some awesome advice I've seen you give regularly is to run 19 boyz rather than 20 in wagons in case you need to re-allocate an HQ into a vehicle. That's something I think people miss when making 'hypothetical I'm gonna build it if people tell me it's awsome' lists. They just press the '20 boy' button.

I think most people want advice within the framework of their lists. I give advice with that in mind most of the time at least. I think Hulk's list is pretty cohesive for what he obviously wants to do with it. I think the rokkits on the boyz is great advice, because after playtest after playtest I think Orks definitely need SOME ranged AT even in lists that are full on rushes. Even if it's to protect the rear against speeder/kopta style units.

Good luck to you, Hulk.

I think the ranged anti-tank is best served in deff-koptas and Lootas though.


And Hulksmash.....a lot of objection to your list is that you don't have any ranged anti-tank, no way to stop armies that play keep-away.

Your answers have been, "I hate Lootas, won't use them, prefer kans (which don't have rokkits)."

In short...I'd love to play against your list. Or send Motaro to play against your list with his Mechdar. While spreading out with a two prong approach as you say might not leave them far to run...that's making some assumptions about things not dying, and you getting to them.

Personally, I'd drop one empty skimmer in front of your battlewagons per turn. You're probably not going to get anywhere near me and I'll be happy to have a shooting war with you.

I know this is kind of a side note, but Dashofpepper mentioned using dethkoptas as long ranged AT. I have never had any succses with using them like that. They seem too fragile to trade shots, especialy at 24", plus it's a big point/per model increase.

I don't use them to sit back and snipe, I use them to shoot/assault transports on turn1.

Thing is Dash that Eldar dont have enough units to sacrifice one per turn to keep my BW's in place. I don't assume nothing will die but Mech Eldar won't have a ton of shots that can take down a BW if they are moving that much or fast enough to avoid me. Mechdar already have a huge issue with Orks.'

As for your list each DL in your list has a 10% chance of wrecking a BW with a field. So you might kill one if your lucky per turn. Granted you could kill more but you also might kill less. And parking 1 doesn't guarentee you'll make your 3+ if I even decide to Tank Shock. It also will only block a single BW not the other two. And let's face it. Even big shootas, shootas, and grotzookas can take down or stun your paper airplanes

As for Koptas you'll almost never get that assault off against a solidly built list. And if you do it'll be against units that they allow you to charge which will cost less than that unit you just sent in. Deffkoptas just don't work in my experience for solid anti-tank. And as for lootas maybe I should be clearer. I hate them due to:

a) Random nature
b) Easy to kill/drive off or cost a ton of points to keep them on the table
c) Elites are a competitive spot and Lootas don't fill a roll for me. Since 5 lootas average less than 10% to take out a serpent (assuming 2 shots) they just don't make up for what other units can do.

I'm not gonna pretend that the list is lacking in certain areas. But the army has the tools to deal with everything. It might not have the ability to deal with it the way that is most common for you but the tools are there.

I personally don't discount any of Dash's advice on Orks. He's been playing as them much more recently than I have and a lot more games than I probably ever got even with my old list in 4th edition. That being said we have a very different game play styles and I think our outlook reflects it.

I quite literally don't think about a single thing I'm going to do before my turn starts. Dash is a lot more methodical. And my list building approach follows my playing style as does his. Basically I build a list, giving myself tools I know and understand, and assume that I'll react the way I need to when I need to. Then I tweak based on that initial list but it's normally pretty mild changes. Dash ruthlessly tests, tweaks, runs numbers, and adjusts his lists pretty constantly.

My style is not the best approach to list building or playing by far. In fact Dash's style would probably serve a lot of people a lot better. But I'm comfortable with it and it's served me alright so far

@Old One Eye
Thanks, I didn't even see your post the first time I was in here

Ok Hulksmash, I can see where this list is going, and I really like it. The two wave assault works really well, and is a really potent list. Am I correct in saying that the primary reason you are running deff dreads is for the extra cover, with the kanz, for the footboyz? If so, can I suggest dropping them and taking 6 warbuggies instead?

1. Versatility. If your opponent has a largely footslogging army, they can zoom ahead with the wagons and tank shock like crazy! if the board is light on terrain, and the opponent light on vehicles, they could form additional cover for the footboyz.

2. Survivability. I find 6 AV 10 open topped vehicles with 4+ cover is more survivable than 2 12 4+ cover vehicles. i have not mathhammered this. I find it so because of the additional redundancy with the kanz.

3. Ranged AT. They will come into their element against dark Eldar, with each squad easily dropping a raider per turn, much more useful than the dreads would otherwise have been.

Oh, and you can keep the zookas on the kanz, as this will balance the AT.

This is my advice, take it or leave it.

Just noticed, but the ork boyz seem to be missing a few...bosspoles?

Hulksmash wrote:Thing is Dash that Eldar dont have enough units to sacrifice one per turn to keep my BW's in place. I don't assume nothing will die but Mech Eldar won't have a ton of shots that can take down a BW if they are moving that much or fast enough to avoid me. Mechdar already have a huge issue with Orks.'

As for your list each DL in your list has a 10% chance of wrecking a BW with a field. So you might kill one if your lucky per turn. Granted you could kill more but you also might kill less. And parking 1 doesn't guarentee you'll make your 3+ if I even decide to Tank Shock. It also will only block a single BW not the other two. And let's face it. Even big shootas, shootas, and grotzookas can take down or stun your paper airplanes

Alright now, lets be realistic.

Vypers, raiders....it doesn't have to be a durn fire prism dropping in to block your passage. I don't know how you play a wagon line, but the wagons generally roll up the table in tight formation to prevent as much in the way of side armor as possible. The plus side is that it protects your side armor; the downside is that you can't really maneuver to rotate on the spot. If you have 5 battlewagons next to each other, and someone drops a raider 1" away from the three in the middle....those puppies aren't going anywhere that turn except backwards, unless you successfully ram/tank shock through.

Almost no one runs Vypers in their Mechdar Dash. I can count the number of guys that I've seen with them in GT's on probably 2 hands but that's over 4 years of several GT/Indy GT's a year. And I don't think I ever played against any of them either

And to be fair Dash even with fire support I won't be "going anywhere" if you put stuff in front of them if they make there save. It's not like I can shoot it out of the way before I move. It's a fact of nature that you deal with with big vehicles. I got enough soft shots to take out those kind of units without swapping out what's already there. So again why would I trade lootas (easy to kill or insanely expensive) for something harder, more durable, and with more uses?