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Hey folks!

I was just reading through the BA codex and something caught my attention. Corbulo has a special rule that says, "Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made, such as for an armor save, a Leadership test, a To Hit Roll, a Scatter roll, or even to seize the initiative. If Corbulo is slain before this ability is used, then it is lost."


The I turned to page 86 of the rulebook.....and in the little box it tells you the steps to prepare for a game.

1. Agree points limit and choose forces
2. Prepare the Battlefield
3. Select a Mission
4. Deploy Forces
5. Start the Game!

The last thing you do before starting the game is force deployment, which is determined by a die-roll between your opponent and yourself. The winner chooses first or second. Both players deploy their forces (or reserve) as appropriate, and then the game starts.

That seems to mean that a BA player with Corbulo may not re-roll the dice that determines who goes first / chooses deployment - because that die roll is done before the start of the game; while Corbulo can only affect rolls in the game. Precedent has been set for influencing the pre-game deployment roll in at least three other codexes (DE, IG, SW) so the language clearly exists for making it work if the authors so choose, but they instead chose to limit it to game rolls, noting that you could spectacularly reroll "even to seize the initiative!" which also happens when the game starts.

Anyone with thoughts on this? And Gwar, we talked about this offline - while you're welcome to add to the discussion (as I'm sure you will), I'd ask that you quote sections of the rules in doing so; no made up rules please! =)

And As I said there, if the roll off to determine who goes first is not part of the game, it cannot affect the game, meaning that the roll off was pointless.

Gwar! wrote:And As I said there, if the roll off to determine who goes first is not part of the game, it cannot affect the game, meaning that the roll off was pointless.

I think you're fond of calling things strawman arguments; I don't know if this is one, but it is certainly a false dilemma. The universe is full of things influencing other things that are not a direct part of the event.

A coin toss before a football game influences the game, but isn't part of it.
Drafting new players into a team is not part of the football game, but will still affect the game.
The mission that is rolled for isn't part of the game, but definitely affects the game - you play to the mission. Deployment is the same.

In short, you've created a sentence out of imaginary facts, but none of what you said is supported in any way by rules, logic, or common sense.

The roll off to see who goes first is not part of the game. It determines who is going to START the game, and has a definitive meaningful impact on the game.

And on a personal note, we're having steak tonight. Don't be jealous Gwar.

I'd rule that the roll can be rerolled. That role isn't part of the Game, but it is part of the game.

Dashofpepper wrote:

A coin toss before a football game influences the game, but isn't part of it.
Drafting new players into a team is not part of the football game, but will still affect the game.


.

Those are part of the game of football. Or is the rules for writting your list not part of the game? After all it is not done during the game. If it's not part of the game then it does not apply to the game and I can therefor bring 10 HQ's.

Dash you are going to confuse our European friends (he means American Football, not Football )

That said, it does really depend on how you define 'the game.' In the BRB the steps you listed 1-5 fall under the category 'organizing a battle.' There are rolls in this as well, so if you can re-roll the dice to determine deployment, I would have to say you can re-roll the choice of mission and deployment type as well...at the end of the day, it really is implied that everything after Step 5 is 'the game' and the rest are just part of 'organizing a battle.'

Or, he means football, not soccer............

shh, now you are just going to confuse them even more, they have no idea what soccer is might as well call it Lacrosse!

dash, you may have strict RAW on your side of the argument but you'll encounter a significant portion of players who will disagree with your view. 40k isn't played in the courtroom but the tabletop. some people will see the list you said as examples, not an all inclusive list of what you can affect. that's why the words "such as" are in there and the precedent to affect rolls before "start the game" is in the list of examples. most people will consider the "game" to start when the players reach the tabletop and any roll they make to be valid. GW has proven that they don't reference their own rules with the same fine tooth comb that players do and it's more likely that they simply didn't see that interaction or felt that their inclusion of a pre-"start the game!" example along with the words "This can be any roll you have made" rather than choosing to exclude it.

finally... are you and gwar debating not only rules but food based cat head decorations? what's with the new avatar gwar? dash has fruit so you went veggie?

Auspex is wargear that allows you to shoot pre-game, after infiltrator deployment...so I would say the game doesn't begin until someone starts their first phase of their first turn.

warboss wrote:finally... are you and gwar debating not only rules but food based cat head decorations? what's with the new avatar gwar? dash has fruit so you went veggie?

Vassal + Skype funsies.

warboss wrote:dash, you may have strict RAW on your side of the argument but you'll encounter a significant portion of players who will disagree with your view.

Players disagree on all sorts of things, which is why we have the rulebook to steer people back onto course.

And in this case, we have the rulebook to tell us when and how the game starts, and what actions distinctly happen before the game....actions that lay out the template for the game itself - rolling for mission, rolling for deployment, rolling for terrain sometimes, rolling for deployment, rolling for objectives.....

None of those rolls are part of the game, they're part of the pre-game setup. So does Corbulo allow you to re-roll the mission? You show up to a GT and say, "Well, I don't want to play DoW, so Corbulo is going to reroll for the mission and give us something else." Where's the line? I say that the line is where the rulebook calls it - after deployment. Once deployment is finished, you start the game. IE, Corbulo can't use his "one reroll per game" to influence pre-game rolls.

You don't roll for mission at most GTs. Even if you did, Corbulo would let you reroll and I don't see the issue with that.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:You don't roll for mission at most GTs. Even if you did, Corbulo would let you reroll and I don't see the issue with that.

That's a nice opinion there....but what I'm looking for is any kind of refutation using the rulebook, which seems pretty cut and dry here against him doing it.

Corbolo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made, such as for an armour save, a leadership test, a to hit roll, a scatter roll or even to seize the initative. If Corbolo is slain before thi re-roll is used then it is lost.

thats the rule quoted.

if you look at were it actually says to roll off on the deployment types it does say "the players roll-off" and then after all deployment is done and any infiltrators and scout moves are done to "Start the Game"

but I would point out that siezing the initiative is done pre-start of turn1 which corbs reroll specifically allows.

It says "once per game." It does NOT say "once per Game."

Massive difference. Deployment and setting up the battle are part of the game but are not part of the Game.

Again, if the Roll off is not part of the game, how can it affect who goes first?

Say you were playing a friendly game, or a weird tournament that wanted you to roll for mission from the book. Would you assume Corbulo allowed you to re-roll the mission choice die if you had rolled it? Or the deployment choice die?

I think "step 5, start the game" is pretty clear, and everything else is pre-game, even if it affects the game. Something CAN affect a game and not be part of the game - the coin toss example used could fit that, as does the scheduling decisions done by the NFL that chose your opponent.

The rulebook is unclear as to where "seize the initiative" actually happens. It could be read that you "start game, roll, then begin turn" or "roll, then start game/begin turn". So the fact that Corbulo's rules include seize the initiative as a roll example to me isn't evidence that it can be used for earlier rolls.

mrdabba wrote:Corbolo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made, such as for an armour save, a leadership test, a to hit roll, a scatter roll or even to seize the initative. If Corbolo is slain before thi re-roll is used then it is lost.

thats the rule quoted.

if you look at were it actually says to roll off on the deployment types it does say "the players roll-off" and then after all deployment is done and any infiltrators and scout moves are done to "Start the Game"

but I would point out that siezing the initiative is done pre-start of turn1 which corbs reroll specifically allows.

Yes....seizing the initiative is done pre-turn 1. That's part of the game. The game starts once deployment is finished, according to the rulebook. Everything after deployment is the game. You place your models, I place my models, then the game starts: Infiltrating, scouting, seizing the initiative, and the first turn. Nothing before that point is part of the game.

Gwar: All I see are semantics. Game vs game, with an uppercase or lowercase is irrelevant. There's no distinction made in the rules, I don't see how it relates anywhere either. If you must, then here: Corbulo allows you to reroll once per game with a lower case g. Page 86 tells you to start the "game" with a lower case g on page 86. Its the same game. I have to be honest, I don't think attempts at trying to define "game" vs. "Game" or making empty assertions that pre-game actions can't affect a game are really useful here.

You're told when to start the game in the rulebook, and you have a codex that says you get a single re-roll during the game. And the rulebook clearly puts the roll for who goes first in the pre-game arena. Is there anything to support a contrary opinion aside from "I don't think that's fair," or "That's referring to a Game, not a game" or anything relevant?


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lambadomy wrote:Say you were playing a friendly game, or a weird tournament that wanted you to roll for mission from the book. Would you assume Corbulo allowed you to re-roll the mission choice die if you had rolled it? Or the deployment choice die?

I think "step 5, start the game" is pretty clear, and everything else is pre-game, even if it affects the game. Something CAN affect a game and not be part of the game - the coin toss example used could fit that, as does the scheduling decisions done by the NFL that chose your opponent.

The rulebook is unclear as to where "seize the initiative" actually happens. It could be read that you "start game, roll, then begin turn" or "roll, then start game/begin turn". So the fact that Corbulo's rules include seize the initiative as a roll example to me isn't evidence that it can be used for earlier rolls.

The rulebook isn't unclear as to where seizing happens. It happens after infiltrating and after scouting - where infiltrating is the first step of the game, per p86.

The rulebook isn't unclear as to where seizing happens. It happens after infiltrating and after scouting - where infiltrating is the first step of the game, per p86.

Infiltrating is part of Deployment...

The main thing you guys are missing it seem is this. It does not say you get to "re-roll once during the game". It says "once per game". During would imply yes, during the game. Once per game would imply at any given point you need to drop a die. Pretty clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note that if it is not your die roll to make. Meaning your rolling for mission type. Since its not your die roll (either player can make it), you cant re-roll it.

Dashofpepper wrote:

The rulebook isn't unclear as to where seizing happens. It happens after infiltrating and after scouting - where infiltrating is the first step of the game, per p86.

What? page 86? Where exactly is inflitrating or scouting mentioned on page 86?

On page 92, and in each deployment type's section on page 92 and 93, it says "deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves" followed by "Start the game!" So infiltrating is not the first step of the game, since "Start the game!" is.

The box describing "seize the initiative" on page 92 says "In any standard mission, just before the player that should go first begins his first turn, the opponent can decide to try to steal the initiative". It does not say anywhere whether or not "just before the player that should go first begins his first turn" means BEFORE or AFTER game start. The question remains - is actually beginning the turn what counts as starting the game making seize the initiative pre-game, or is there just some declaration that the game has started, and then the player begins his turn, with "seize the initiative" acting as an interrupt. I take it to be the latter based on how it is written, but it is unclear.

Anyway, you seem to agree with my basic interpretation, that seize the initiative is after "Start the game!" which means that the fact that Corbulo's rules say he can affect the seize roll has no bearing on whether or not he can affect the deployment roll. We are in agreement with how this rule works.

Natfka makes a good point. You deploy once per game, you roll to seize once per game, you take your second turn once per game, and you tally objectives/KPs once per game. It seems like you could use Corbulo's ability to re-roll any die related to the game, whether it happened during the game or not.

I'm not sure I've said anything better than Natfka did, but I thought examples might help.

lambadomy wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

The rulebook isn't unclear as to where seizing happens. It happens after infiltrating and after scouting - where infiltrating is the first step of the game, per p86.

What? page 86? Where exactly is inflitrating or scouting mentioned on page 86?

On page 92, and in each deployment type's section on page 92 and 93, it says "deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves" followed by "Start the game!" So infiltrating is not the first step of the game, since "Start the game!" is.

The box describing "seize the initiative" on page 92 says "In any standard mission, just before the player that should go first begins his first turn, the opponent can decide to try to steal the initiative". It does not say anywhere whether or not "just before the player that should go first begins his first turn" means BEFORE or AFTER game start. The question remains - is actually beginning the turn what counts as starting the game making seize the initiative pre-game, or is there just some declaration that the game has started, and then the player begins his turn, with "seize the initiative" acting as an interrupt. I take it to be the latter based on how it is written, but it is unclear.

Anyway, you seem to agree with my basic interpretation, that seize the initiative is after "Start the game!" which means that the fact that Corbulo's rules say he can affect the seize roll has no bearing on whether or not he can affect the deployment roll. We are in agreement with how this rule works.

My bad; I thought they were after the game started. Didn't flip open and read that part myself.

But since there are no rolls to make for infiltrate or scout (unless both players have them) you place your stuff, make your moves and the game starts with the seizing of the initiative roll.


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Natfka wrote:The main thing you guys are missing it seem is this. It does not say you get to "re-roll once during the game". It says "once per game". During would imply yes, during the game. Once per game would imply at any given point you need to drop a die. Pretty clear.


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Also note that if it is not your die roll to make. Meaning your rolling for mission type. Since its not your die roll (either player can make it), you cant re-roll it.

I'm not "missing" anything. It says once per game. And the rulebook defines for us where the game starts. The game has a start point and a finish point - and the roll for deployment/first turn happens before that start point, making his re-roll ability not apply to that particular dice.

Once per game DOES imply at any given time you need to drop a dice. But only DURING the game, not before or after. IE, from the seizing the initiative stage until the game ends on turn5-7ish, you can choose to reroll a dice.

hey howabout the roll to see if the game ends?

me: Now I'll roll to see if the game ends

opponent: ok

Meh I rolled a 5 and it keeps going, well I'll reroll it, oh good I got a 2 so the game ends, seems like I have all the objectives tied up so I win!

of course, there is no precedent in the big book for who exactly can make that dice roll, so it will be a per TO ruling as to whether far seeing eye affects end of game rolls

Depends on if you consider all the other elements part of what is considered the "game". If setting up is indeed part of the game, then getting to use a re-roll during that time would have to be legal.


If you consider that setup is NOT part of the game, then you would be right.




Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thanatos67 wrote:hey howabout the roll to see if the game ends?

me: Now I'll roll to see if the game ends

opponent: ok

Meh I rolled a 5 and it keeps going, well I'll reroll it, oh good I got a 2 so the game ends, seems like I have all the objectives tied up so I win!

of course, there is no precedent in the big book for who exactly can make that dice roll, so it will be a per TO ruling as to whether far seeing eye affects end of game rolls

Ooooh, I like that. If you take turns, then when the BA turn to roll to end the game comes up, he can re-roll the result if he doesnt like it. Neat.



Clay

That's my main issue with it. "Aha, Corbulo is alive, I can re-roll the die to end the game!"

"Ok, then I want to roll it instead."

"Well...I....er.... no?"

Against BA players you'd end up rolling off to see who gets to roll to end the game, and then if they lose they'll be upset that they saved the ability all game for nothing.

Enter now the tournament precedent [threat?] of allowing BA players to roll the die if they bring Corbulo, or face the wrath of the soft score from a player sore that you deliberately denied them their special ability.

Dashofpepper wrote:


Once per game DOES imply at any given time you need to drop a dice. But only DURING the game, not before or after. IE, from the seizing the initiative stage until the game ends on turn5-7ish, you can choose to reroll a dice.

Where does it say During the game. U made me re-read all related areas of the codex and I still cant find it. Even if game is defined from seize inititive onward, (which is fine I dont care cuase it doesnt matter here), you get one die roll per game. That means for anything that you want to re-roll. (please find where it says one re-roll during the game).

Once per game is pretty clear. Nothing implies or says it has to be from point of seize inititive to game end. It doesnt even say it has to be game related. If you decide during your game or before your seize inititive, that highest die roll buys pizza, you get a re-roll.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And As I said there, if the roll off to determine who goes first is not part of the game, it cannot affect the game, meaning that the roll off was pointless.

I think you're fond of calling things strawman arguments; I don't know if this is one, but it is certainly a false dilemma. The universe is full of things influencing other things that are not a direct part of the event.

A coin toss before a football game influences the game, but isn't part of it.
Drafting new players into a team is not part of the football game, but will still affect the game.
The mission that is rolled for isn't part of the game, but definitely affects the game - you play to the mission. Deployment is the same.

In short, you've created a sentence out of imaginary facts, but none of what you said is supported in any way by rules, logic, or common sense.

The roll off to see who goes first is not part of the game. It determines who is going to START the game, and has a definitive meaningful impact on the game.

And on a personal note, we're having steak tonight. Don't be jealous Gwar.

I'm sorry dash, but you're confusing concepts here in quite a few places.

Besides the obvious: Since it is explicitly stated in the rules text, you cannot argue against it; the player gets to re-roll a Seize the Initiative if he so chooses.

About the universe... If it influences... then it is causally related... lol... This is just a metaphysical fact... by "Part of the event"... again, this just makes no sense. If by event you mean the effect then that further makes no sense, no cause is ever the effect of itself, this is a causality loop and is irrelevant. Now I'll step out of all that irrelevant stuff to start saying things that are important to this discussion:

Rule number 1 when trying to understand the rulebook of Warhammer 40k: It is not a legal document, nor is it a technical document, nor is it even consistently written nor is it even well-written. I've come to this understanding over the last few weeks and I think it is going to be part of the majority of my responses to people when they ask questions like this. One of the most recent things was that I routinely call the "Small Blast" marker a "Pie plate", I am obviously wrong if you want to look at the rulebook as a technical document, but the guy who corrected me, about 3 minutes later called the "Large Blast" marker a "Template"... See my point? These terms are really all just interchangeable outside of the Warhammer 40k world and we understand what each other means by them, when you try to get technical about a book full of colloquial references and undefined or ill-defined terms, you're going to just confuse the topic more often than clarify.

When does the game start? The RAW Does not cover this... Organizing a battle section does not cover this, when it says "Start the game!" this can be taken in multiple ways, does it mean, start playing? Because you've already rolled dice and dice tend to be aligned with a game so what were you doing during the "Select a mission" part? Were you not playing a game? Wittgenstein would have something to say about that... What are you doing while you're assembling and painting your models are you playing a game? Is that part of the next game you play? When two people sit around on Tuesday and "Agree points limit and choose forces" for a "game" they "Play" on the following Saturday... were they playing the game on Tuesday? We are arguing over the rules... are we currently playing Warhammer 40k?

If the game does not start until after you deploy forces then no models have any abilities during deployment, no one can outflank, no one can infiltrate, no one can scout move... etc... You see the absurdity yet?

You see? this is the problem, the BRB is not a technical document; it was a huge step for me to stop treating it as a technical document as I was always looking at it as if it had technical references, I strongly suggest you follow in my footsteps in this regard.

If the deff rolla is considered part of the hull then I'm using corbulo's re-roll for the first turn

If dice are being rolled it's part of the game. The ability specifically effects die rolls. If you're rolling dice, it works.

Natfka wrote:
If you decide during your game or before your seize inititive, that highest die roll buys pizza, you get a re-roll.

I agree with this interpretation! I might start playing with Corbulo!