Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi

A strange event occured twice at our FLGS this Past Thursday. The proliferation of Blood Angels players going dread happy led to this occurance.

Situation:
A dreadnought gets rammed, neither vehicle is destroyed, and the models are in base contact in the subsequent combat phase.

Question:
Since the models are in base contact, can the dread swing?

Relevant Rules Sections that I have perused so far:
The rules for ramming don't resolve it on BGB pg 69...
the rules for ramming a walker don't resolve it on BGB pg 73...
The INAT doesn't resolve it... (or I couldn't find the answer quickly or easily)

BGB pg 63, column 2 allows models in base contact with a weapon skilless tank to attack it... but the context is within that of the other unit assaulting the vehicle first...

On the one hand -
- the attacks normally allowed against a vehicle which is in base contact in that vehicle's turn are considered to be part of a continuous assault - which the rammed dread didn't initiate in its own turn.

On the other
- normaly the unit that is allowed to attack isn't locked in combat, and neither is the dread, but they are in base-to-base.

RAW
- no, it seems the dread cannot attack because it didn't initiate an assault, which allows the attacks in the next round without being locked in place.

The answer I like, but doesn't seem to be correct -
- swing away.

Thoughts and arguments on this situation?

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

You appear to have summed up the issue pretty well. RAW, in the situation as described, the walker would indeed be unable to attack as it never initiated an assault.

However, there is nothing stopping the walker from moving (as it is not locked in combat) so I can't see anything that would prevent you in the walker's next assault phase from simply declaring a charge, shifting it in infinitesimal amount along the hull, and swinging away.

So in practice, I think most players would be fine with you just making an attack without the messing about.

Correct. You would have to move away and then assault it after.

The upside is you would get to move, shoot it first and then assault!

I think he means he wants the dred to hit in his enemys assault phase, after being rammed which is borderline ridiculous.

God, I already know you guys are going to rip into me with both feet again.

P 63 "Successive turns"

Units that still have models in base contact with a
vehicle in its Assault phase may attack it again, just as
in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that
would count as engaged in a normal assault).

Talking about a Tank that rammed a walker with no decisive result, and we are now in the Tank's assault phase.

I see the relevant point as "Counting as engaged" (base to base contact or within 2 inches) here, not whether an assault has occurred in the past. Being engaged simply allows the assault to happen in the Tank's assault phase, I don't see any restriction requiring an assault to have happened in the past. The conditional at the beginning of the "Successive turns" section is talking about whether the Tank and other models are still in base to base contact, which it then affirms (paraphrasing "Yes they are considered in base-to-base contact or base-to-hull contact, however they are not considered as engaged for the purposes of Shooting, the units assaulting a tank can still be shot at".

Then in a separate line of reasoning the "Guidebook" (thats what I'm calling it nowadays) moves on to say that "if it would be considered engaged as described earlier, then it can attack the tank in the Tank's Assault Phase"

Seems like the tank and the walker would be in "Base to hull" contact and therefore would be considered engaged for the purposes of being able to assault during the tanks assault phase.

Be gentile

Refer to my previous post.

Vis - you missed out the "may attack it again"

they havent attacked it before, therefore cannot attack it again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Vis - you missed out the "may attack it again"

they havent attacked it before, therefore cannot attack it again.

Pretty much this. You cannot attack something "again" if you have not done so already.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Vis - you missed out the "may attack it again"

they havent attacked it before, therefore cannot attack it again.

Ahh i knew my lazyness to look for a hole in his argument would result in someone else doing it, thanks nosferatu1001 and thank the interweb gods.

carlosthecraven wrote:

RAW
- no, it seems the dread cannot attack because it didn't initiate an assault

if one of my squads is being attacked it cant attack because it didnt initiate an assault?

There's a difference between being locked in an assault, and being rammed.

visavismeyou wrote:Seems like the tank and the walker would be in "Base to hull" contact and therefore would be considered engaged for the purposes of being able to assault during the tanks assault phase.

They might be considered engaged, but that's not the criteria given in the section at hand.

The paragraph you quoted is referring to a unit 'still having models in base contact'... with the 'still' in that case referring you back to a previous event. Specifically, the section as a whole is referring to assaulting the vehicle, and then models still being in base contact later on.

So it doesn't apply to models that find themselves in base contact some other way (although, as I said, I think that's how people will tend to play it) but only to models who have assaulted the vehicle and are still in contact.

HamHamLunchbox wrote:if one of my squads is being attacked it cant attack because it didnt initiate an assault?

Yes, of course they can fight in close combat. We're not talking about infantry fighting... vehicles (which can't be locked in combat like everyone else) have different ruels that apply.