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Wouldn't he be a 'good guy' who's goals are actually pro-humanity?

It will never happen, because his magic is worse than a regular space marine librarian's.

No he wouldnt, because he is an absolute donkey-cave that like most of the CSM thinks only about himself.

I thought that:

A) he doesn't acknowledge the chaos gods as his master (though if he is an unknowing pawn of tzeentch is a different matter)

B) That his quest was centered on continuing to find ways to bend chaos to humanities will and benefit.

Orkeosaurus wrote:It will never happen, because his magic is worse than a regular space marine librarian's.

This made me laugh till I pooped

Orkeo has great one liners that do have tendencies to cause BMs. Ahriman still favors his knowledge over humanities will to bend chaos though. His knowledge of everything is really what Tzeentch wants.

His first act would probably be to locate and ransack the black library, and from there he would spend the rest of eternity fighting off the incessant attacks of all 16 craftworlds (or however many there are).

I am on the side of Chaos, but Ahriman becoming a Chaos god? When the Emperor is reborn, Orks become happy grots, the Eldar die, and Tyranids all explode, we can then CONSIDER the SLIM TO NONE possibility of Ahriman becoming a god

Ahiman will become a god when GW stops making gratuitous SPEHSS MEHREEN codices every three months. However though, it is safe to assume that if Ahriman DID somehow become a god, all the regular spehss mehreens would become gods as well in order to retain their superiority

Corvus wrote:Ahiman will become a god when GW stops making gratuitous SPEHSS MEHREEN codices every three months. However though, it is safe to assume that if Ahriman DID somehow become a god, all the regular spehss mehreens would become gods as well in order to retain their superiority

I wish I had more signature space for this...so much truth....

Pffft, Calgar's already a Fluff God, suck it Ahriman

Even if he did, why worship an ignorant version of Tzeentch?

He's failed for the past nine-odd thousand years to get into a library gaurded by disco clowns. Somehow I don't see him ascending to godhood.

The GW,the masters of the universe will decide will he become a god.

I'm not interested in thoughts about if he CAN, or CANNOT become a god- because game wise it will never happen.

The question is, is if he did manage to succeed what he would be the chaos God of, and perhaps would he even be of benefit - not detriment- to humanity.

Opinions on if he can or not are rather pointless; you have to assume he already did in order to address my actual question.

likely he would be on the side of humanity, but might still oppose the impierium and they would still oppose him.


2 empires, one devoted to knowledge, one devoted to ignorence.

Well I think his intentions would be to help humanity, but will as always with him, end up doing bad. Kind of a "depends on whos perspective" thing. He will think hes doing good for humanity but will in turn mess things up. Thats the way of it. I dont think he will really be a specific chaos god either. But if GW ever DID do that, he would replace Malal for sure. He would be the god of Chaos undivided. The way I think Chaos marines really SHOULD be. Just a different outlook on life, and not so anti Emperor.

The knowledge within the Black Library may well be badass, but it's clearly not "god-maker" level on the scale that the Four are gods. If it were, the Eldar (who are *the* psyker-witchcraft race) would have been far more powerful than they were. That knowledge didn't just appear somehow, it must have been earnt/discovered/unlocked, so they clearly had opportunity.

I agree that the library would not make him god status, but a a serious threat. He might simply be squashed by the 4 gods...

Anyway, if he did and survived and such, he is still a CSM and thereby selfish. He can say he is working for the good of humanity, but look at what he has done, the amount of warp he screws around with, the nature of the warp, and not to mention what the knowledge in the black library would do to him. That stuff has messed up alot of characters much more formidable than him... Horus for example...

But lets say the warp doesnt drive him insane or corrupt him completely. There are still problems.

-Chaos gods are emotional energy that have grown and gained consciousness. So what would he embody? He would be more like a super psycher, more like the emperor than a god.
-Lets say he gets through all this with the best of intentions... ya... look what the rubric did to his fellow brother marines. He could do much more harm than good.

Bottom line is, I think his actions in the 40th millennium better dictate his intentions. He is ruthlessly pursuing knowledge, messing with chaos energies, narcissistic in his belief that he can control what the emperor himself knew was uncontrollable, and has a superiority complex when it comes to his dealings with the chaos gods... he is surely a pawn of tzeench or he would have been royally screwed by now (and his ambition only serves to strengthen tzeench), and most of all-he is not allowed into the black library. Only those without the taint of chaos in their souls are allowed within the black library. If you have that down then he could get in without this much trouble. Therefore, he is tainted and his intentions are not pure. He would help himself, not humanity.

Now those are the kinds of well thought out Posts I like!

I do have a few interesting takes on things:

The first being the nature of the Chaos gods as emotional energy that have grown and gained consciousness- I have no contention with that, but I have to say it doesn't seem inconceivable that 'higher' emotions are off limits. In Ahrimans' case (and more likely then not, the Emperors as well, were he to become a chaos god) would be a wonderful chaos God of Pride - an emotion that can lead to both wonderful, and horrible things, much like the intentions of Ahriman, and the well intentioned, but at times to pridefully carried out actions of the Emperor.

In fact, it seems that if a Chaos God was to arise from Humanity, that would be it- and if a Human were to ascend to this position, it'd probably have been the Emperor, Horus, Magnus, or at a distant 4th (but now 3rd since Horus kicked it) Ahriman.

The other thought is that the Black library wouldn't need guards if there were total safe guards as to the purity of those who access it.

Slaanesh is already pride.

It's more interesting to think about the archetype that Ahriman represents rather than some hypothetical situation involving his ascension. He's the archetype of the Chaos Sorcerer, the selfish and esoteric madman who believes that he can bend the Primordial Destroyer to his will rather than the other way around.

Something to consider is where GW got his name from. Here's a link to wikipedia's entry on the name Ahriman.

KingCracker wrote:He would be the god of Chaos undivided. The way I think Chaos marines really SHOULD be.

Modern-GW has brainwashed and corrupted you!

"4 Legions under Gods, divided", "Four Rings to rule them", "Four for All and All for Four", etc etc...

Nurglitch wrote:Slaanesh is already pride.

It's more interesting to think about the archetype that Ahriman represents rather than some hypothetical situation involving his ascension. He's the archetype of the Chaos Sorcerer, the selfish and esoteric madman who believes that he can bend the Primordial Destroyer to his will rather than the other way around.

Something to consider is where GW got his name from. Here's a link to wikipedia's entry on the name Ahriman.

Slaanesh is pleasure; lust, excess, pleasure, perfection and hedonism are all better lumped as thing which promote pleasure then pride, and he, like the other Chaos gods, use pride to lure mortals over to chaos- if Slaanesh was the sole purveyor of pride, then its hard to see Magnus as having been seduced by Tzeetch, since it was appeals to his pride that were the gateway to his fall.

Sleenesh was 'born' due to the excess pleasures of the Eldar; hedonism was the definitive characteristic of their pre-fall existence; by contrast the definitive mark of Humanity is the overwhelming sense of pride humans possess about their place in the universe as its natural born masters, and the continuous cultural constructs that promote it as virtues (EDIT: which, if not taken to excess, are wonderful concepts)- honor, dignity, ect...

Its that thought that makes me wonder if a Human did ascend to being a God/Chaos God (though that position dose not be default have be 'negative' in the sense that the four powers of chaos are in 40k) which Ahriman seems to want to do in order to 'control' chaos - and theoretically, so might the Emperor have wanted to, then one must wonder what they would embody. Else where i think someone suggested that the Emperor, should he have ascended to godhood, or that he is on track to do would would be a lord of entropy, or of hunger- perhaps a hunger for power, which is a form of realizing pride, but I don't think a Human turned chaos God would embody such a primordial power; human nature is centered on its ego centrism, not a continual lust for everything around us (except as something to augment our status, or our self worth- hence pride

Carlovonsexron:

The fifth circle of the domain of Slaanesh is the garden of Vainglory (p.11, The Realm of Chaos, Codex: Chaos Daemons). Those who feel pride in this circle become lost in that garden and eventually become trapped in it.

So yeah, Slaanesh is pride. Also temptation and greed (Avidity), Gluttony, Carnality, power (Paramountcy), and Indolency, and lies. Its number is 6, It is the first amongst the Dark Powers, the Prince of Chaos.

fair enough, though if Slaanesh can shove around tzeentch to cover lies in the same manner tzeentch does, then I dont see to much of a reason why a chaos god human wouldn't be able to shove Slaanesh over about pride They also intertwine in terms of Slaanesh's paramountcy, and Tzeentch being the lord of ambition- those two go rather hand in hand, rather illustrating that Chaos gods seem to be able to exist with overlap...

to paraphrase someones sig who's name i can't recall.



the four gods are a lie, there is only change.

Khorn is simply changing valiant warriors into blood thirsting maniacks.

Nurgle is changing healthy bodies into pestulent carcasses of decay.

Slannesh is changing sane, upright creature into slaves to their own senses.

Change is everything and everything is Change.

Tzeench is the master of Chaos.

Carlovonsexron:

I'd imagine that the wars fought by the Chaos Gods are metaphors for how meaning shifts and realigns according to the competition of metaphysical paradigms.

That said, the Dark Powers complement each other, as well as compete for non-material assets such as meaning, dominion, and alliance.

According to the article I linked to in wikipedia Ahriman is an antithesis to the true and the good, representing a notion of evil in various sects of Zoroastrianism. But rather than corner the market on evil, and in keeping with the theme of Chaos Gods being amoral and archtypical, I'd suggest that the Dark Power Ahriman would form the kernel of upon his ascension would be Antithesis, the Chaos God of opposition, conflict, inconsistency, and denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amon 'Chakai to the Rathelian Congregation, p.39, Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:"Don't you see? My Master Tzeentch cares not which of the Great Powers you serve.

In the end, aren't the followers of the Blood God changing valiant warriors into headless corpses? Aren't the worshippers of the Lord of Fliers changing strong, healthy bodies into rotting, diseased carcasses? Aren't the disciples of the Dark Prince changing stern, steadfast heroes into slaves to their own senses?

Chaos is a struggle to change, you must agree. Change rules all.

That's a piece of mortal theology rather than a statement about the super-nature of the Dark Powers. Rather ecumenical in tone, but I get the sense he's drumming up some some cannon fodder in order to pursue some secret agenda.

As to the Emperor's status as a god...

He is one, the god of the human spirit. He has a secular, human supremacist, unyeilding, noble, visionary, and so on nature.
He is kinda like all that is good in humanity if you want to take it that way. Kinda like Sanguinius was.

That is why he stands in direct opposition to the chaos gods and why faith in him is a potent weapon, especially against them. Think demon hunters and witch hunters. Their faith is literally a weapon or protection even in game terms.
That said, he did not want to be one and has a secular view, probably with the intention of the elimination of all god worship and thereby a severe weakening of the chaos gods. Possibly a weakening to the point of being vulnerable. Who knows.

The main problem with anyone becoming a chaos god is that the chaos gods were never anybody in the first place. As stated, they were pure energy... energy of a certain aspect... The only question here is if multiple spirits can count as that energy. This forms the idea behind the star child and infinity circuit gods in embryo theories. If this is so, then what they represent to those who worship them and the nature of the spirits that join with them are the deciding factors, not the personality of the original.
For example, the eldar god currently forming would be the an eldar god of the dead. That entails a few things, but dictates a distinct nature and aspect.
The emperor is a bit more hazy, but you just have to look at the spirits that join with his and you get a zealous, human centric, militaristic, noble, ect type god. Again, a significant picture of the good of humanity vs the bad (which is exactly what the chaos gods are)

Oh and thanks for the reference to the nature of the name or Ahriman. Very interesting.

Regarding the Emperor's own Godhead, all we have for evidence that the Emperor didn't want to ascend to the status of divinity is that it was the official position of his Empire prior to his installation on the Golden Throne.

Moreover being worshipped as a god does not make one a god. The Adeptus Astartes don't regard him as a god, for example. Some of the Adeptus Mechanicus regard him as the incarnation of the Machine God, the Omnissiah of cult myth, but other's do not and regarded as an interloper using his psychic powers to dupe the credulous.

That a mortal can ascend to the Immaterium and a warp entity is proven by the existence, or subsistence if we want to properly restrict existence claims to things that exist, that have extension in space and time rather than things with no such quidity, of Daemon Princes and other ascended. Just how much of the mortal identity survives the transition is an open question despite GW often treating daemonic entities as just another alien race (i.e. people with funny shapes), but the fact is that there are daemons that were once apparently people. Plaguebearers of Nurgle are notorious for being the remains of people killed by Nurgle's Rot, for instance.

Personally I like to take two approaches with this. The first is that ascension to Daemonhood is the result of daemonic entities laying an egg in the host's soul, which gradually devours the host's soul and takes its memories for its own. Essentially the transition from person to daemon is the result of a slow and prolonged possession during which the host's material aspect is made sacred and thus immaterial. The resulting daemon is hence whatever fragment of the gestalt Power that the Dark God in question wishes.

The second approach is more traditional in that the mortal in question bargains away fractions of their soul for psychic power, engages in sorcery, trafficking with daemons, and this part by part emptying of their souls and replacing it with the empty form of daemonic power eventually leads to the mortal ascending to the immortal plane (or descending, if you consider their fate as damnation) as they lose touch with, and existence in, the mortal plane.

Ahriman has only recently got himself a force weapon.. he is the complete archetype of chaos all talk no substance..

And I like him too.. Tis sad.

Njal will likely become a god though..