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HQ:
Shas'o 75pt
missile pod 12pt
plasma rifle 20pt
bonding knife 5pt
HW Drone Controller 0pt
2 shield 30pt
HW multi-tracker 5pt
Positional Relay 20pt
total: 169pt
------------------------
Elites
Crisis Battlesuit Team
3 Shas'ui 75pt
1 team leader 5pt
1 Fireknife-6 (TL plasma rifles TL) 42pt
2 TL plasma rifles 60pt
1 target lock 5pt
HW multi tracker 5pt
drone controller 0pt
2 shield 30pt
total: 223pt
------------------------
Crisis Battlesuit Team
3 Shas'ui 75pt
1 team leader 5pt
1 Fireknife-6 (TL plasma rifles TL) 42pt
2 TL plasma rifles 60pt
2 target lock 10pt
HW multi tracker 5pt
HW drone controller
2 shield 30pt
total: 218pt
------------------------
Crisis Battlesuit Team( suicide team for tanks/ flamers)
3 Shas'ui 75pt
1 team leader 5pt
3 TL flamer 18pt
1 fusion blaster (TL) 12pt
1 missile pod ('ui) 12pt
1 HW multi tracker 5pt
1 HW drone controller 0pt
2 gun 20pt
1 drone controller ('ui)
2 gun
total: 172pt



Troops:

Fire Warrior Team
6 shas'la 60pt
total: 60pt
--------------------------
Fire Warrior Team
7 shas'la 70pt
1 shas'la team leader 15pt
bonding knife 5pt
total: 90pt
-------------------------
Fire Warrior Team
7 shas'la 70pt
1 shas'la team leader 15pt
bonding knife 5pt
1 HW drone controller
total: 90pt
-------------------------
Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
3 shas'ui 210pt
3 targeting array 30pt
3 TL plasma rifle 90pt
1 team leader 5pt
HW multi-tracker 5pt
HW target lock 5pt
1 HW BSF 3pt
total: 323pt
---------------------
Fast Attack
Pathfider Team
7 shas'la 84pt
1 shas'ui 22pt
bonding knife 5pt
total: 111pt
Devilfish (required by pathfinders) 80pt
SMS 20pt
targeting array 5pt
multi-tracker 10pt
disruption pod 5pt
total: 120 (231 with pathfinders)pt
------------------------------------------
final total: 1576pt
open points: -76pt

notes: the HW BSF were there because I had 6 open points and it was a "just in case of a stupid DoW mission and my broadsides are then useless" thing

Get rid of the individual points costs for the upgrades, and only list the total points cost of a unit as a whole.

@above: ok my bad.

Wolfblade wrote:@above: I have the total points for the unit listed under them I'll bold them so people can easily see them.

That's all good and well, but policy is to leave out separate costs.
As to your actual list:
I'd suggest losing the markerlight and multi-tracker on the Shas'uis of the Fire Warrior Squads. Then buy one of them a fish, for added armour and speed.

I'd like invite you over to this current thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290159.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290159.page
And to this old thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237732.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237732.page
for some ideas.

Now real quick, Your HQ's are overbuilt and you don't need 2 of them. the points you save here will let you balance your army

thanks focusedfire! I use 2HQ for the better stats then reg crisis suits and the fact that if all but the leader dies they can group together (I think please correct me if I'm wrong)

HQ's are way over kitted
-Twinlinking plasma rifles is generally way too expensive
- Twin linking anything on a shas'o is especially pointless.

Devilfish is unneccessarily over kitted

Multi tracker on the PF 'ui is pointless

I would take out all upgrades on one of the FW teams so they are the basic 60 point squad, and load em in the Pathfinder Devilfish to take objectives.

I would suggest using the points you save on either a couple crisis suits or a kroot team.

OK, I'll try to help but I'm not going to tell you what to run because everyone has their own playstyle. Rather, I'm going to show you the bugeting tricks that I've learned through experience and from Dakka

1) When people first start playing Tau, there is the tendency to overkit the squads to make them more survivable. Problem is, doing this drops the number of needed units meaning that each unit fielded takes that much more damage. KP can be a nusance but making 10 units fire at 10 units is usually better than making 10 units fire at 5. There are exceptions to this practice but then we get into the second point.

2)Decide what Type of army you want to build. Do you want a firepower army that throows out a tremendous amount of shots, A resilient army that can take the abuse, or a fast and mobile army. Normally the army is a combination of these but one style of build will appeal to the tactics you favour. Start with whichever army type that naturally appeals to you. Next, create a list of what units you want in the army, include weapons but do not add any other wargear. Add up the total points, subtract from planned army total. Example: 1750pt army minus 1530 points of units leaves only 220 pts for wargear option. If there is not enough points for the wargear needed then look to which units you cancut in strength or could drop altogether.

Some bugeting tips.
3) The only real reason to take a Shas'o in the current gaming enviroment is if you plan on using the Com and Control Node. Aside from this a Shas'el equipped with a Targeting array has the same BS as a Shas'o but will be 15 pts cheaper.... 25 pts Cheaper if you can live with the Shas'els BS 4.

4) Battlesuit teams of 2 with no drones never need to take Bonding Knives because the unit can never fall below half-strength without being destroyed. This can save you 5 points a squad.

5)Some wargear is from 4th edition and is pretty much useless in 5th. IMO, these would be:
A)Decoy Launchers
B)Sensor Spines
C)Any hard-wired wargear on base infantry with the possible exception of the drone controller

6)Things that seen to be a negative can in fact be a positive. Look at Pathfinder teams where you "have" to buy a transport. Currently it is common practice to take the Pathfinder Devilfish and use it for the Fire warriors. This gives you transports for the troops, makes the PF's cost effective and gives access to the PF devilfish marker beacon to help your deep strikers. The only drawback to doing this is that the FW's can not start the game embarked.

7)If a unit is going to spend most ofthe game in a transport, "Do you really need to buy a team Shas'ui, Bonding knife, or grenades?"

8) It is common concensus that no Tau SC's are worth their point cost, but you can build some interesting lists so, again, it is up to you to decide what fits your playstyle.

That is a good start. Play around with this and the other info, then redo and post your revised list so we can work on it from there.
P.S.- look about in the army list section and you'll pick up the shorthand style of list writing. This will help others assess your list so they can help you.

Later


Edit for transposed entry

HQ's are way over kitted
-Twinlinking plasma rifles is generally way too expensive
- Twin linking anything on a shas'o is especially pointless.

Devilfish is unneccessarily over kitted

Multi tracker on the PF 'ui is pointless

I would take out all upgrades on one of the FW teams so they are the basic 60 point squad, and load em in the Pathfinder Devilfish to take objectives.

I would suggest using the points you save on either a couple crisis suits or a kroot team.

1. the pathfinder has it so he can fire his markerlight AND the carbine (so if enemies try to assualt them i can hopefully slow them down)

2. I'm not taking markerlights out on my FW as they provide another source WHEN (not if) my pathfinders die (and the FWs can still use the devil fish)

3. The HQ crisis are better stat-wise then reg crisis suits (and the TL stuff came in when my friend said he was about 100ish points over)

4. the devilfish may be overkitted but I like them overkitted with extra possiblities (flechette : discourage assualts, disruption pod: cover save, targeting array: easier to hit, multi tracker: move more and still shoot, sms: more shooting/fewer easy KP, Target lock: yeah probably get rid of it.

focusedfire wrote:OK, I'll try to help but I'm not going to tell you what to run because everyone has their own playstyle. Rather, I'm going to show you the bugeting tricks that I've learned through experience and from Dakka

1) When people first start playing Tau, there is the tendency to overkit the squads to make them more survivable. Problem is, doing this drops the number of needed units meaning that each unit fielded takes that much more damage. KP can be a nusance but making 10 units fire at 10 units is usually better than making 10 units fire at 5. There are exceptions to this practice but then we get into the second point.

2)Decide what Type of army you want to build. Do you want a firepower army that throows out a tremendous amount of shots, A resilient army that can take the abuse, or a fast and mobile army. Normally the army is a combination of these but one style of build will appeal to the tactics you favour. Start with whichever army type that naturally appeals to you. Next, create a list of what units you want in the army, include weapons but do not add any other wargear. Add up the total points, subtract from planned army total. Example: 1750pt army minus 1530 points of units leaves only 220 pts for wargear option. If there is not enough points for the wargear needed then look to which units you cancut in strength or could drop altogether.

Some bugeting tips.
3) The only real reason to take a Shas'o in the current gaming enviroment is if you plan on using the Com and Control Node. Aside from this a Shas'el equipped with a Targeting array has the same BS as a Shas'o but will be 15 pts cheaper.... 25 pts Cheaper if you can live with the Shas'els BS 4.

4) Battlesuit teams of 2 with no drones never need to take Bonding Knives because the unit can never fall below half-strength without being destroyed. This can save you 5 points a squad.

5)Some wargear is from 4th edition and is pretty much useless in 5th. IMO, these would be:
A)Disruption Pods
B)Sensor Spines
C)Any hard-wired wargear on base infantry with the possible exception of the drone controller

6)Things that seen to be a negative can in fact be a positive. Look at Pathfinder teams where you "have" to buy a transport. Currently it is common practice to take the Pathfinder Devilfish and use it for the Fire warriors. This gives you transports for the troops, makes the PF's cost effective and gives access to the PF devilfish marker beacon to help your deep strikers. The only drawback to doing this is that the FW's can not start the game embarked.

7)If a unit is going to spend most ofthe game in a transport, "Do you really need to buy a team Shas'ui, Bonding knife, or grenades?"

8) It is common concensus that no Tau SC's are worth their point cost, but you can build some interesting lists so, again, it is up to you to decide what fits your playstyle.

That is a good start. Play around with this and the other info, then redo and post your revised list so we can work on it from there.
P.S.- look about in the army list section and you'll pick up the shorthand style of list writing. This will help others assess your list so they can help you.

Later

1. & 2. ok thanks I'll take this advice and rebuild the army to fit a style (static gun line I think. My friend likes to charge forward a lot)
3. I like the Shas'o here because of the extra wounds/ my friend was over points and I decided to just add in more points to my list
4. True, but I'd like to keep some markerlight sources after my pathfinders die (which they generally will after the first volley of BS5/no cover saves)
5A. never mind. Yeah I only take decoys if I'm running full mech and I have extra points or if my opponent can only glance.
5BC. yeah I agree I try to never take them unless I know it'll be very cover heavy.
6. same thoughts but it shouldn't be a problem if they start unembarked.
7. hmmm true I'll remove the stuff from one of them as only one will be in a transport
8. yeah same thoughts. The Aun'va is entirely against all of the ideas of tau (CC =bad!) and firesight limits down the options (kroot are great meat shields against orks!) and shadowsun doesn't seem very good to me besides the fact that she can let others use her leadership.

I'll post my new army list later, but I'm still working on it.

edit: fixed spelling mistakes

Heh, Sorry about 5A. I was supposed to type decoy launcher but transposed. I fixed the entry. I must be getting lysdexic.

Seriously, use the disruption pods. Currently this is a written in stone practice until the next dex or rule set. The only time I don't use them is on piranha if I plan on them being in reserve. Again, sorry about the erronious entry and misinformation.

Later

ah ok nvm then. here is my new list:

HQ:
Shas'o
TL missile pod
plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW Drone Controller
2 shield
HW multi-tracker

Bodyguard 1 & 2 ('vre)
2 plasma rifle
2 missile pod
2 targeting array
2 HW Drone Controller
2 marker 2 shield
2 HW multi-tracker
2 HW target lock
total: 417pt
------------------------

Shas'o
missile pod
TL plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW Drone Controller
2 shield
HW multi-tracker

Bodyguard 1 & 2 ('vre)
2 plasma rifle
2 missile pod
2 targeting array
2 HW Drone Controller
2 marker 2 shield
2 HW multi-tracker
2 HW target lock
total: 421pt
--------------------
Troops
Fire Warrior Team
6 shas'la
total: 60pt
--------------------------
Fire Warrior Team
5 shas'la
1 shas'ui
1 markerlight
1 HW multi-tracker
total: 85pt
-------------------------
Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
2 shas'ui
2 Advanced Stabilisation System
2 TL plasma rifle
1 shas'vre
Advanced Stabilisation System
TL plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW multi-tracker
HW target lock
1 HW Drone Controller
2 marker
total: 355pt
-----------------------------------
Fast Attack
Pathfider Team
7 shas'la
1 shas'ui
bonding knife
HW multi-tracker
total: 116pt
Devilfish (required by pathfinders)
SMS
targeting array
multi-tracker
flechete discharger
disruption pod
total: 130 (246 with pathfinders)
------------------------------------------
final total: 1584


can anyone possibly give me some more advice for knocking it down a few more points (on what I don't need possibly

Still command heavy,IMO. Still sinking a vast amout of points in these squads

One of your command squads equals in cost what My normal HQ and two Crisis teams cost.

This list is also very light in the troops department. At 1500 pts you want at least 3 squads of troops


Try this:
With the exception of the broadsides, try to not let a squad cost more that 220 pts.

Also try to make 20-25% of army cost come from the Troops section.

*Hint- A 25 point XV8 Shas'ui has the same BS as a 35 point Shas'vre. Crisis elites general kill more that the HQ's when viewed by a Point for Point basis.

Hope this helps

hmmm ok thanks! I'll try that then post my new list later. thanks again focusedfire! (so basically get rid of body guards and replace with crisis suits? now I feel dumb lol. 10 free points off, per guy, for minor useless downgrades (WS, etc))

It is ok to run bodyguards but the temptation to over-kit them is ever-lurking.

Downside to using elite crisis and joining a commander is a possible first turn vulnerability.

Up side is you can have a three-strong crisis squad joined with a commander thus giving you a less expensive and more durable command team.

Build a list and call it List A.

Try running one command squad w/bodyguards but keep the unit cost down to 240 pts

Then build 2 elite teams for 300 pts. total

Build rest of list from there.


Next, Build list B using two commanders that join together to form a unit and two or three crisis teams.


*Note that you can join 2 commanders to the same unit also, but each must join the team. If they join one another then they loose the ability to join another unit.


Pls, remember that I am not trying to tell you what exactly to run, but rather show you a variety of waysto build effectively. This is because each has their own preferences.

Case in point, I generally try to build most of my squads with a homogenous BS. This means that I prefer to run my command squad with a Shas'el and bodyguards(
or joined crisis team) that is equipped with Targ Arrays so that the team all have BS4. I could give the Shas'el the Targ array also but preffer the faster rolling of then all being the same. Your opponents will appreciate this too.

Hope this helps

notes: I got 339 extra pt. any advice on where to spend it?
also helios or fireknife? for the suits? or a combo? or others?
going with the list B idea. (no worries about waiting for me. my turn takes about 10min if I'm going slow. my friend on the other hand takes about 1/2 an hour )

anyways here's the list
HQ:
Shas'o
TL missile pod
plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW Drone Controller
2 shield
HW multi-tracker
HW target lock
------------------------

Shas'o
missile pod
TL plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW Drone Controller
2 shield
HW multi-tracker
HW target lock
total: 177
--------------------
Elites
Crisis Battlesuit Team
3 Shas'ui
1 team leader
1 Fireknife-7 (TL missile pods)
1 Fireknife-6 (TL plasma rifles)
1 Fireknife+ (targeting array)
HW multi tracker
HW target lock
HW drone controller
1 marker 1 shield
total: 257
------------------------
Crisis Battlesuit Team
3 Shas'ui
1 team leader
1 Fireknife-7 (TL missile pods)
1 Fireknife-6 (TL plasma rifles)
1 Fireknife+ (targeting array)
HW multi tracker
HW target lock
HW drone controller
1 marker 1 shield
total: 257
-------------------------------
Troops
Fire Warrior Team
6 shas'la
total: 60pt
--------------------------
Fire Warrior Team
11 shas'la
1 shas'ui
1 markerlight
1 HW multi-tracker
1 HW target lock
total: 150pt
-------------------------
Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team
2 shas'ui
2 Advanced Stabilisation System
2 TL plasma rifle
1 shas'vre
Advanced Stabilisation System
TL plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW multi-tracker
HW target lock
1 HW Drone Controller
2 marker
total: 355pt
-----------------------------------
Fast Attack
Pathfider Team
7 shas'la
1 shas'ui
bonding knife
HW multi-tracker
total: 116pt
Devilfish (required by pathfinders)
SMS
targeting array
multi-tracker
flechete discharger
disruption pod
total: 130 (246 with pathfinders)
------------------------------------------
final total: 1161

Please ignore the lack of capitalization on the letter 's' - my keyboard is broken so I have to ue the 'Paste' function to type an s, and don't have a 'cue' to type words like '_uestion'.

I have a uestion about the crisis teams - you know the Fireknife-6&7 wont be able to fire both their twinlinked and normal weapons together? Assuming the Team Leader gets the Targeting Array - thats the disadvantage of not having a team of sha'Vre rank - no hard-wiring Multi-Trackers on sha'Ui rank suit (despite the shas'Ui upgrade on a basic Fire Warrior granting access to it - doesnt really make sense but no-one would ever take bodyguards unless their elites were full/running a Farsight bomb). so the crisis suit teams will cost two-hundred and fifty-one points (my one key is also broken). Unless you meant to for wound allocation purposes, in which case I would still drop one of the Fireknife variants a you'll still have 3 differently armed models (Team Leader, FireKnife, FireKnife-7 e.g.).

I would also exchange some/all of the shield drones for gun drones, as the invulnerable save is somewhat negated by the 4+ cover save your Crisis units should nearly always be getting thanks to the jump move. Perhaps one of the shas'O's and maybe the Team Leader's. Until your suits are on one wound/stand a risk of failing two save, normal saves should be taken on them to absorb more firepower. Also, downgrading one shas'o to an 'el and taking stimulant injectors makes it more survivable than its 4-wound counterpart.

Finally, Twin-Linked Bs5 is a little overkill- do you really need to hit 35/36 of the time?

Hope that helps and isn't patronising ,

Guy

Thank you for your complements but there are many others whom are better, I think of myself as just experienced rather than an expert.

You are doing better. One clarification though, I meant 300pts between the 2 elite units combined. You will be amazed at how effective and survivable a cheap team can be. That is because the points saved goes into more units which increases firepower and makes focusing on just one unit tougher for your opponent.

You are also light in the troops section, try to get at least 3 squads in a 1500 pt game, 4 squads in a 2000pt game, ect.

Guyrevell has some good points, a little difficult to understand but good.

@guyrevell- Let me guess, tried to type after assembling models?

My post could have been a bit more coherant, I'm blaming tiredness.

And it could be one of many factors - dropping the laptop, the inordinate amount of tobacco in between the key or the skin cream that was spilled over the keyboard - I'm spoiled for choice.

And I agree about the points size for teams, I usually take 2 suits 2 gun drones per team. Grouping two cheapish shas'Els together can be a nice unit too - I'm a huge fan of both special issue weapons and running them alongside burst - 6 bs5 burst shots + flamer large template + 5 rending shots murders units without FNP, and usually a wound has to be allocated to team leaders, exarchs and special weapon holders. Its a nice small footprint as well, though I would agree with taking 3 + a commander if they're kitted the same, then things get mowed down rather than chipped. In 1750 points I usually run 6-8 suits, depending on whether I take 5 Broadsides or 3 + Ionhead/skyray, and try to keep the commanders around (or less than) 100-20 points, including drones (excluding a Positional Relay/Iridium Armour/stims/shield drone commander - that 160 points hilariously well spent).

Night Guys, words are going a bit fuzzy

Wolfblade wrote:Shas'o & Bodyguard 1 & 2 ('vre)
Shas'o & Bodyguard 1 & 2 ('vre)

I think your overall Crisis Suits (the 6 you have listed here) would serve you better thus:
1. Shas'el Fireknife: w/ TA, hwMT, hwDC, 2 Shield Drones - nothing else. With the TA, a Shas'el will still have Ballistic Skill 5. Giving a Shas'O Twin-Link is over kill.

Elite units:
2 and 3 - Pair of FireKnives
4 and 5 - Pair of FireKnives
6 - Single FireKnife with TA & hwMT (team leader upgrade required)

No need for Bonding, or team leader upgrades. Your pathfinders will provide increase for Ballistic Skill and depriving of CoverSaves to make your PlasmaRifles effective.

Wolfblade wrote:Fire Warrior Team 6 shas'la
5 shas'la 1 shas'ui 1 markerlight 1 HW multi-tracker

You'll want Target Lock instead of MT so the MarkerLight can target a different one than this unit ... and in general, these two min units are your Achilles heel. Poster focusedfire is right. These min troop choices will be easily scragged, even if you 'hide' one unit in the PathFinders' Warfish. And then you'll always be playing for a Draw. Next purchase: Kroot or another box of FWs.

Wolfblade wrote:XV88 Broadside Battlesuit Team 2 shas'ui
1 shas'vre
Advanced Stabilisation System
TL plasma rifle
bonding knife
HW multi-tracker
HW target lock
1 HW Drone Controller
2 marker

Use team leader instead of 'vre as the vre's stat upgrades makes no difference whatsoever in h2h. Totally worthless. Instead of A.s.s. go with a MT, *if* your terrain tends to be thin, allowing for a good view of most of the field. IF you use a lot of LoS blocking pieces, then stay with A.s.s., but I'd save points and just have the SMS. And toss the Marker ... drones? Run b-sides with Shield Drones, always.

Wolfblade wrote:Pathfider Team 7 shas'la 1 shas'ui bonding knife HW multi-tracker

Skip the MT. MarkerLight range is twice that of a carbine and carbines are kinda worthless. I've never seen a FW or PF crew with a MTracker.

Wolfblade wrote:Devilfish - SMS, targeting array, multi-tracker, flechete discharger, disruption pod

Here, I'll disagree with previous posts. This is called a Warfish, and if you move Combat Speed, you have a great 7 die gunboat. Keep it. FlechetteDis is optional, IMHO.

Also, go read AdvancedTauTactica.com. It helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:Notes:
I like to use shas'o over shas'el as that allows more options (like flamer or TL) for the same model but for 15 more points and an increase of other stats.

Those stat increases are nearly always meaningless, especially against MarineEquivalents (MEqs).Target Array makes up for the BS and the extra wound never really helps. WS? Pffff. You don't *want* to get into h2h.

Wolfblade wrote:markerlight sources besides pathfinders are included because pathfinders are expected to die fast (don't they always after the first volley of BS 5/no cover saves?)

I run two sets at 1850 or more. 1850 or less, one crew, and yes, they get clobbered pretty hard, but since I run my other FWs inside Warfish for the FoF maneuver, I don't have any other MLs. No other unit is as efficient as PFs.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

guyrevell wrote:I have a uestion about the crisis teams - you know the Fireknife-6&7 wont be able to fire both their twinlinked and normal weapons together? Assuming the Team Leader gets the Targeting Array - thats the disadvantage of not having a team of sha'Vre rank - no hard-wiring Multi-Trackers on sha'Ui rank suit (despite the shas'Ui upgrade on a basic Fire Warrior granting access to it - doesnt really make sense but no-one would ever take bodyguards unless their elites were full/running a Farsight bomb). so the crisis suit teams will cost two-hundred and fifty-one points (my one key is also broken). Unless you meant to for wound allocation purposes, in which case I would still drop one of the Fireknife variants a you'll still have 3 differently armed models (Team Leader, FireKnife, FireKnife-7 e.g.).

If I understand right, you're saying a TeamLeader *can't* have a TA? IF so, then no, you're incorrect. The Vre does the same thing, only with the worthless stat increases.

And I'm okay with your missing Q.

guyrevell wrote:I would also exchange some/all of the shield drones for gun drones, as the invulnerable save is somewhat negated by the 4+ cover save your Crisis units should nearly always be getting thanks to the jump move.

GDs are bad because they don't share the same Toughness, possibly bringing the unit's Majority Toughness down. GDs have crappier Armor Saves, but SDs take on the Toughness and Armor Save of their host. SDs are superior choices, always.

guyrevell wrote:Finally, Twin-Linked Bs5 is a little overkill- do you really need to hit 35/36 of the time?

Well put.

Nope I definately agree that Team Leaders can have a Targeting Array and 2 weapons and fire both, its just that his team was still equipped as though each member had access to Hard-Wired wargear.

As for Shield Drones, I'm still not sold when attached to 3+ save models. Obviously, if Gun Drones outnumber the suits then the majority toughness of 3 kicks in, but taking enough drones to outnumber suits is considerably overkill. Taking one gun drone to each suit means your highest 'majority' toughness is 4. Good use of the Jump move means the drones should have a cover save virtually all the time, so the only real issue is the 3+ save vs the gun drone's 4+. Which for a 50% increase in cost and no ability to shoot doesn't seem worth it to me. Gun drone shooting (except for that rare moment when a gun drone single handedly destroys any back AV10 vehicle, monstrous creatures and characters) is rather ineffective compared to the crisis suit controlling it but can add a wound or two extra and this is really important - even a single extra wound on a squad can really hamper its ability to wound wrap and keep special squad members alive - and a 1/3 chance of removing a melta guy can pay off.

Also their cost - for 2 Shield drones one can have 3 Gun drones. And the 1/6th increase in save is outweighed by having an extra wound and model. Having that extra model is invaluable for wound allocation, often meaning there is a single drone to nobly absorb that lascannon hit at the critical point of the game. Being AP'd by autocannons is very annoying, but as I've said, you should still get a 4+ save, and you'd only allocate those wounds to the drones if all your suits were down to one wound. Shield drones on 2+ save models is worth it without question though. For a happy medium, 1 of each type is quite an effective setup.

As for drone-less teams, I kind of see that as handicapping yourself. Crisis battlesuits would be overpriced without drones as the first 2 lascannons to hit the squad would kill at least one, cover or not, making them almost unusably fragile. In lower point games where Str8+ is too concerned with armour to shoot at suits, it's more viable, and nonetheless possible at any points level with a DeathRain suit, as the huge range means you can find a completely line-of-sight blocking piece of terrain and stay behind it all game. On anything with a Plasma Rifle, using it at optimum range will leave you just too close to risk having a 50-70 point model simply removed.

Plasma and Broadsides - works wonders as a squad-wide choice. 3 'Sides with Multi-Trackers shooting 9 twinlinked infantry-mullering shots is a sight to see. It does require further forward than usual placement, and as a unit can effectively control a section of the board. However (I did this too when I began collecting) giving only the team leader plasma seems fantastic, but when it comes to actually playing, tends not to work out too well - especiallyif they are your main anti-tank - they will be shooting at veichles and monstrous creatures until they get plasma-cannoned or assaulted, and wont usually get the chance to turn their firepower onto important, hard infantry units. I would recommend taking 2 units of 2, one with A.S.S. or Targeting Arrays, and one with Multi-Trackers and plasma, if you want to make use of that tactic. It means your opponent also has to make a choice on which to take out - with 2 Shield drones they are a tough nut to crack. Alternately, to save points and raise your opponents blood pressure, consider taking a drone controller on each, and 3-4 shield drones. In 1750 I take 5 'Sides and in 2000+ I take 6, as veichle cover saves can be many and unforgiving. Its not too important a point though - taking a Target Lock is the right thing to do with only one Plasma Rifle in a squad, meaning he can cause that extra wound or two to a different squad.

As for a Multi-Tracker on a pathfinder squad leader - his single carbine shot has a lowly 1/9 chance of killing one marine. Simply not worth it - even if you use the markerlight hit he has a 1/2 chance of generating to boost one squad to bs4, its stil not really worth it. And if he does fire his markerlight, the unit won't be able to charge (why not? 8 carbines and 16 attacks isnt great, but it steals his +1 bonus for charging!). You'd be better off moving and running, or moving and shooting depending on how far away the nasty squad is.

If I was you, I would get rid of all the marker drones (+120 points), and minimize the 11 man fire warrrior squad to 6, unupgraded boys (+90 points) giving you 210 to spend. 231 points (save some on other drones) gets you an 8-man, Bonded Pathfinder squad, and another Warfish for your newly downgraded Fire Warrriors to use. Alternatively, go for a 'standard' Devilfish (disruption pods only), and lose a pathfinder or two, and thats easily another suit. If you need markerlights to be everywhere then try a Skyray out - it is a truly underrated tank that can come in as cheap as 145 points, with 2 Bs4 markerlights that it can use on itself. Nice. Then try taking 2

Definately stop by Advanced Tau Tactica - especially the Acadamy section. Brilliant stuff.

Hope thats of use, and not too long-winded,

Guy

*EDIT*: Changed the paragraph on Shield Drones to make it clear (rather than completely wrong) on what I meant.

guyrevell wrote:As for Shield Drones, I'm still not sold when attached to 3+ save models. Obviously, if they outnumber the suits then the majority toughness of 3 kicks in, but taking enough drones to outnumber suits is considerably overkill. Taking one gun drone to each suit means your highest 'majority' toughness is 4. Good use of the Jump move means the drones should have a cover save virtually all the time, so the only real issue is the 3+ save vs the gun drone's 4+. Which for a 50% increase in cost and no ability to shoot doesn't seem worth it to me. Gun drone shooting (except for that rare moment when a gun drone single handedly destroys any back AV10 vehicle, monstrous creatures and characters) is rather ineffective compared to the crisis suit controlling it but can add a wound or two extra and this is really important - even a single extra wound on a squad can really hamper its ability to wound wrap and keep special squad members alive - and a 1/3 chance of removing a melta guy can pay off.

FYI, SHield Drones have the same Toughness as the model that purchased them.

Running a mix of one each per controller is how I normally roll.

guyrevell wrote:Also their cost - for 2 Shield drones one can have 3 Gun drones. And the 1/6th increase in save is outweighed by having an extra wound and model. Having that extra model is invaluable for wound allocation, often meaning there is a single drone to nobly absorb that lascannon hit at the critical point of the game. Being AP'd by autocannons is very annoying, but as I've said, you should still get a 4+ save, and you'd only allocate those wounds to the drones if all your suits were down to one wound. Shield drones on 2+ save models is worth it without question though. For a happy medium, 1 of each type is quite an effective setup.

Think about the cost like this, your spending an extra 5 pts for a 50% to negate a Plasma hit and effectively giving your very expnsive suit an extra wound to boot.

guyrevell wrote:As for drone-less teams, I kind of see that as handicapping yourself. Crisis battlesuits would be overpriced without drones as the first 2 lascannons to hit the squad would kill at least one, cover or not, making them almost unusably fragile. In lower point games where Str8+ is too concerned with armour to shoot at suits, it's more viable, and nonetheless possible at any points level with a DeathRain suit, as the huge range means you can find a completely line-of-sight blocking piece of terrain and stay behind it all game. On anything with a Plasma Rifle, using it at optimum range will leave you just too close to risk having a 50-70 point model simply removed.

The drones are normally not needed for deep striking suits because of the combination of attrition, time left in the game, and the units low cost. My Heatwave units jump in at a cost of 86-92 pts on turn 3-4

Alas! My poor sentance structure has left me looking like an amateur - thats what I meant and I'll edit it to read correctly.

Totally with you on dedicated close-range deepstrike units not wanting any drones, bonding etc, risky as that strategy can be. And hoorah for heatwaves! Have you considered a team of Flamer/Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster/Twin-Linked Flamer? It comes in at 90 points which can be a little heavy for a sacrificial squad.

I tend to run a 2 man 'Hades' team (I don't like 'HotKnife') of Plasma/Flamer/Mtracker, with a Twin-Linked Flamer, Bonding Knife and 2 Gun Drones on the Leader. Tends to be fairly devastating, especially for objective clearing, though I don't usually deepstrike them.

I find Shield Drones are nice to have and do give you a little extra peace of mind, I've just been trying to compact my lists to the utmost recently - aiming for a competitive 1750 list with no Railheads, Firestorms/Knives. I was trying to not use Kroot either but I gave in in the end - they are just too cheap! I'll be posting it tonight in fact.

OK on the crisis suits I'll make it so they have 1 weapon/suit if they don't have multi trackers.
I really like my shield drones so I think I'll keep them. (pinning S5/AP5 at 24" isn't that helpful to negate a 4+ invul vs various ap2/ap1 weapons is it?)
Only a limited amount of models so I generally try to overkit and my friend with a 5k+ SM army likes a "no proxy" rule (great for him, he has like 5 of every dread in every config and I'm short about 2-3 crisis suits of what I need atleast)
Any sugesstions on what else to add? I still have a free 339pt to use.
also did I put any TL & BS5 anywhere in my army?

@brothererekose: I think you're looking at an old list If you are still looking at my list w/'vre in it. I'll update my new list into my first post my bad

new army list at the first post

@Wolfblade-If your low on models right now is a great time to pick up some deals. Try to make it to a bits swap if you can. If not, hang around your FLGS and just listen. There is always someone getting out of the game or like when I started, a college student who had to make rent. $60 for 300$ worth of Tau Before you look at me that way, The guy set the price, not I.

Now to your extra points, some extra troops, HS, and one more FA would be good. Choose from there.

Later

OK thanks focused! I'll keep an eye out for deals ($300 tau for $60 nice!)

Off topic- Swap shop posting for tou just went up here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291447.page

On topic-Did you get a chance to read through the threads I posted earlier? If so, Did you find anything that helped or gave you new ideas for your army?

Off topic:thanks!
on topic: yes I did. I'm thinking that because I use broadsides over hammerheads (generally) That I'm going to use a somewhat static gun line (broadsides hide in a corner while I possibly put a unit or two to meat shield for them and the rest of my army moves as normal)