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A list I've been running for the past 8 months:


HQ: Shas' el XV8 w/ Plas, FB, Pos Relay, BK, HWMT, HWDC, 2 Shield Drones
Shas'vre XV8 w/ Plas, FB, TA, HWDC, 2 Shield Drones....................................244

Elite: 2 XV8 Shas'ui w/ FB, TL Flamers.............................................................86

Elite: 2 XV8 Shas'ui w/ FB, TL Flamers.............................................................86

Troop: 8 FW, 1 Shas'ui w/ BK. ......................................................................105

Troop: 8 FW, 1 Shas'ui w/ BK .......................................................................105

Troop: 10 Kroot, 2 Hounds..............................................................................84

FA: 4 PF, 1 Shas'ui, BK, 3 RR
Devilfish w/ DP, MT, TA ................................................................................205

FA: 4 PF, 1 Shas'ui, BK, 3 RR
Devilfish w/ DP, MT, TA.................................................................................205

FA: 3 Piranha w/ FB, DP, TA...........................................................................225

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL .............................135

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL .............................135

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL .............................135


Add 10 kroot and 5 hounds for the 1850 build

Feel free to comment, would appreciate feedback.

focusedfire wrote:Devilfish w/ DP, MT, TA .

Why aren't you upgrading all the way to SMS? It'd make the MT and TA really pay off. It eliminates the drones' KP too.

focusedfire wrote:HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL

Kudos for running Ionheads. Truly. But you must get a lot of, "Dude? ... Dude! Why the hell *not* Railguns?"

Really, the 'almost' Warfish is my only real eyeborw raise for the list.

It is the 40 points. If I feel that the game may be highly competitive, I'll tweek for the SMS.

I will suggest that you try as is. If you keep the Drones, it is only 2 less shots but they can pin and there are points that you can still move around in the list.

The real strength of this list is the 15 36" or more S6-7 AP 3 shots per turn. Does a good number on MEQ and monsterous creatures.
Then add the 9 Fusion blasters that are fast or deep strike and the tactics become clear.

Someone once said that the Tau weren't playable without the Railguns and that was all the challenge I needed.

Thank you for your comments. Pls continue.

I might have to steal some ideas here. I tried to build a Tau list that relied on Seeker Missiles a while back. Just tweak a couple things here and there, and you trade those S7 shots for S8 that hit rear and side armor.

@Darkhound- The Sky rays will give you a total of 18 Seekers, you then would need 3 full teams of PF's in order to have an effective Alpha Strike. This doesn't leave many points for units that actually shoot.

I can make Sky Rays work but not as effectively as the Ion heads. With the Ion heads you get 9 shots per turn. In 2 turns they equal the Sky rays number of shots with out running out of ammunition or needing the points sink of the PF's.

Then there is the fact that Sky rays only have a range of 36" with their markerlights. They are dependent upon other units to increase the range of their missiles.

Seeker missiles are not effective heavy armour killers. Their S8 is for AV 12 or less. AV 13-14 is better left to meltas and/or railguns. Now S8 does have a 16+% advantage when dealing with AV 11-12 but the Ion heads 60" range and non-reliance upon PF teams make up for this difference.

When it comes to monsterous creatures, the only prob for the Ion cannon is the Wraithlord(Now that 'nids are limited to T6). But even then, the Ions wound 1/3 of the time and the 9 meltas help to finish.

IMO, The jump from S7 to S8 is not worth it when balanced with all other factors.

Having said this, I would still be interested in seeing what you come up with, for a list.

Thanks

I have considered switching to ion heads myself, as most people would advocate HH railguns for the large blast option, but even still, the single S10 shot on armor misses just too much of the time. I also like that it makes HHs considerably cheaper...

focusedfire wrote:Seeker missiles are not effective heavy armour killers. Their S8 is for AV 12 or less. AV 13-14 is better left to meltas and/or railguns. Now S8 does have a 16+% advantage when dealing with AV 11-12 but the Ion heads 60" range and non-reliance upon PF teams make up for this difference.

Seeker Missiles take some doing to work, but what they have over the Railguns and Ion Cannons/MP is being able to hit rear and side. You have to maximize hitting the lowest armor value of your targets to make up for the lack of strength, but it is something you can do. Pirhanas are great vessels for this use, getting to move 24" behind the enemy and still unload their payload. With the 4+ save some of them will survive (since you'll certainly have done some damage to the enemy), and they can use their Meltaguns to help mop up. They aren't something to entrust your whole game to, and I've given a lot of thought to fail-safes and back-up plans. Anyway, its late; I'll draw up a list in like 8 hours. Do you mind if I post it here?

@ Darkhound- You speak of The Sky Ray hitting side and rear armour. Thing is, I never have a problem with getting the Ionheads into position for those shots. The seeker travel in a straight line, which means cross board shots. The new los rules and the Ion cannons range give the weapon pretty much an equal footing in this respect. Then factor in that most side and rear armour is av 10 or 11 and I fall back on the less expensive Ion Head.

BTW- am enjoying this discussion and no problem about the list. You asking gave me an idea.


@All Posters- If you have a 0 Railgun list that you like, Please feel free to post them on this thread for disussion.

Thank you,
FF

In theory I really like this idea, building an effective list without using railguns as a crutch sounds awesome. However in practice I can't see it being terribly effective, the cost effectiveness of railguns just can't be ignored and having looked at your list it ends up being fairly one dimensional. I think it would work fine against elite lists with low model count but any type of horde army would just roll over it. Yes I see the flamers yes I see the HH burst cannons however those flamers are only going to fire once before being assaulted off the table and burst cannons are only 18" range meaning you are a fleet (waaagh) roll away from being melta'ed and at the very least your opponent will be inside 12" to negate the DP.

I applaud the fact that you are still thinking about how to get more out of tau lists, you have even changed my mind about ion heads. However at the end of the day you can pay 86 points for a squad of fusion crisis suits that will likely only get one round of shooting or you can pay 70 for a broadside that will see multiple rounds. You get more bang for your buck buying anti-tank in your heavy slots in the same way that you get more bang for your buck buying anti-meq in your elites slots. Can elites do tank hunting and tanks do meq hunting? The answer is yes, are they as cost efficient doing it? ultimately the answer is no.

@Aftersong- Thank you for your kind words. If I may reply.

The list has a bit more depth than first initial appearance. I have found that the deep striking units tend to not auto-die as much as one might think. This is because they come in behind your opponents just as they are beginning their push for the objectives. Many players are loathe to turn a unit or two around at this point in the game. They will often just try to shoot the unit off(which usually has them using several times the units cost in firepower to get rid of them) or they just ignore the unit. Now in KP games the strategies are different and these units suffer but even then they have a decent survival rate because of the Pos Relay(ninja-esque positional deployment tricks).

When fighting hordes, Most are dependent upon a few strong alpha leader units. This list is good at removing those alphas and, when you focus the firepower, removing whole units in a single turn. The second gives critical time and manuevering room.

As to your statement about Heavies being better at taking out other heavies, I will have to disagree. I have not had a game in 5th ed where my Railguns took out more heavy vehicles than my deep striking elites, with one exception and that was against a 3 monlith necron build(Phased him out).
Case in point, you compared a 70 point Broadside to my 86 pt crisis team. Yes the 2+ save is nice but so is 4 wounds on a 3+ save. in many ways the crisis team is more survivable. Then compare one TL BS3 Strength 10 shot against front armour 13 - 14, versus 2 BS3 Strength 8 melta shots against rear armour 10, 11, or 12. Then factor in the cover saves the broadside is likely to encounter.

Now, I will admit that what I've posted is not the most competitive or only version of this list. I often run the PF devilfish with DP only, the Command squad with MP in place of the Plas, Command Squad with only 2 shield drones, the Piranha with DP, and will strip one Ionhead down to weapons and DP. I then take those points and drop them into my troops and PF's, or another crisis team.

Try the build, Its very shooty and the re-rollable deep strikes allow for very aggressive unit placement. All in all, I have had a lot of fun with this list(Especially in the current marine heavy enviroment).

Lemme just say I LOVE crisis suits, have a whole blog about them. So, basically I like to use them just a bit
HQ:
Shas’el, twin missile, plasma rifle, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD 123pts

Elites:
Plasma Bodygaurd: Team leader, twin missile, plasma, Bonding knife, HW MT, HW DC, x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui, plasma, missile, multi tracker, x1 shas’ui twin missile, plasma
233 pts (joined to HQ)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, target lock
182 pts

Armor Destroyer unit 1: Team leader, twin missile, fusion, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin fusion, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin-missile, fusion, target lock
202 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles, emp grenades 78 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

x6 fire warriors, rifles, emp grenades 78pts (for pathfinder fish)

X11 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 113pts

X11 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 113pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x6, shas’ui, bonding knife 99pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, Burst cannons, ion cannon, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 135 pts

HH, Burst cannons, ion cannon, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 135 pts

HH, Burst cannons, ion cannon, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 135 pts

Total:1854 pts

So this is my modified list from my normal comp list, i am liking the idea more and more, as much as I like broadsides, because this army completely trashes any real mech armies. As well, I agree with you focusedfire in that majority of the time, or atleast more often than not, deep striking suits tend to survive fairly well, and having 36" missiles after melta'ing something is one of my favorite things to do. As well, a decent amount of people will no doubt argue I do not have suitable av14 death spam, but in all honesty, when you face a decent amount of av14, the army is greatly limiting other things it can use. and per my army strat of being constantly on the move, i am not too worried.

As well, one MAJOR way of utilizing useless firewarriors, and a tau anti armor method widely overlooked, is emp grenades. I have had great success with these, as most armies with landraiders prefer to throw them in your face as quickly as possible, in which case i have had a 6 man emp fire warrior unit take out a landraider twice. Comments are of course accepted...

I absolutely agree with you about the EMP grenades. In my previous post I mentioned that I have other versions of this list and that the points I pull off of other units goes into my troops or anothercrisis team. When I put the points into the troops, they get the EMP's.

Your list is interesting, Have you considered a miss/fusion, miss/fusion, missile/flame load out on 2 of your crisis teams? Not trying to get you to spam fusion as much as the 20 pts for S6 plasma irritates me. I usually only put Plas on BS4, or higher, command squads. If I'm paying 20 points for it I want it to hit.

Mull it over and let me know what you think.

Find a way to fit more volume firepower into the list and I will gladly playtest the heck out of it. As I said I like your concept I just think it needs more polish to be really effective.

I was thinking maybe drop the second pathfinder team bring the first one up to 8 which frees a slot for more fb piranha allowing you to drop a crisis team without diminishing anti-tank capability which could in turn free up points for a stealth team? not sure precisely how that would all work I kinda just spitballing here but I would like to see a list with a bit more dakka in it.

Alright, here's what I was thinking for 1500:

Shas'el, AFL, MP, PR, HWMT, HWTA, HWDC, 2 Shield Drones, 130
2 Crisis Suits, FB, TL Flamers, 86 pts
2 Crisis Suits, FB, TL Flamers, 86 pts
8 Fire Warriors, Shas'ui Bonding Knife, 95
8 Fire Warriors, Shas'ui Bonding Knife, 95
10 Kroot, 70
7 Pathfinders, Devilfish, DP, 169
7 Pathfinders, Devilfish, DP, 169
3 Pirahanas, FB, DP, 2 Seeker Missiles each, 270
Skyray, Burst Cannons, TA, DP, MT 165
Skyray, Burst Cannons, TA, DP, MT 165
1500

The point of the list isn't over-whelming firepower, but precise application. Disable things with the highest front armor first (pulling from the Pirahanas to hit rear), then work your way through the rest of the armor hitting sides with the Skyrays (who should be positioned on each board edge). Apply Fusion Blasters where necessary, and mop up with BS5 Firewarriors.

@DarkHound- Thanks, I like the list. Though, your gonna be annoyed with me for saying this...How about a compromise? Swap the Sky Ray's For Ionheads loaded with 2 Seekers each. Leaves you 20 pts to use elsewhere and removes the running out of Ammo problem. This is how I normally run my Seekers.


@ All Posters- This is a slightly more tuned version of the list.

HQ: Shas' el XV8 w/ MP, FB, Pos Relay, BK, HWMT, HWDC, 2 Shield Drones + Shas'vre XV8 w/ MP, FB, TA HWDC, 1 Shield Drone...213 pts

Elite: 2 XV8 Shas'ui w/ FB, TL Flamers...86 pts

Elite: 2 XV8 Shas'ui w/ FB, TL Flamers...86 pts

Troop: 8 FW, 1 Shas'ui w/ BK, EMP...132 pts

Troop: 8 FW, 1 Shas'ui w/ BK, EMP...132 pts

Troop: 10 Kroot, 6 Hounds...106 pts

FA: 4 PF, 1 Shas'ui, BK, 3 Rail Rifle- Devilfish w/ DP...190 pts

FA: 4 PF, 1 Shas'ui, BK, 3 Rail Rifle- Devilfish w/ DP...190 pts

FA: 3 Piranha w/ FB, TA...210 pts

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL...135 pts

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL...135 pts

HS: Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon, Burstcannon, DP, MT, TL...135 pts


1750 pts

When the list gets to this point, the rail rifles become the next area for adjustment. If you drop them then you shift the points into a 6 FW squad, or add 5 Pathfinders. If you take the 6 FW route then adjust units to become two 6 FW teams in the PF Devilfish and one 12 FW team on foot. Or the points for FW Team on foot can be used for a second Kroot unit. Guess I'm saying, "Tweek your list according to personal playstyle"

Again, comments welcome

Its an interesting idea, but you lose essential Markerlights to make Seeker Missiles work at all. With my build you can light up as many as 6 targets a turn, but without the Skyrays you're limitted to two targets. With the latter you end up either using the Seeker Missiles or buffing your army.

However, moving up to 1750 you can easily fit an Ionhead and flesh out the scoring units.

hmmm ive never even ran an ion head lol..but these builds do look interesting

what about jockeying around for another squad of piranhas?
i think they might get a little more mileage than deepstrike suits as well as offer more board control and late game contesting..

focusedfire wrote:
Then add the 9 Fusion blasters that are fast or deep strike and the tactics become clear.

So this is how you deal with AV14 all-around...I was wondering where that came from.

Good job running this kind of list, every Tau person I see has railguns, I've never seen one without them.

This also works pretty dang well against the mech hell that is the current metagame.

By the way, do you suicide your suits to deal with AV14 campers like the Russ? Or do you just run your Piranhas towards them?

DarkHound wrote:Its an interesting idea, but you lose essential Markerlights to make Seeker Missiles work at all. With my build you can light up as many as 6 targets a turn, but without the Skyrays you're limitted to two targets. With the latter you end up either using the Seeker Missiles or buffing your army.

However, moving up to 1750 you can easily fit an Ionhead and flesh out the scoring units.

You gonna play around with this list of yours? If so would like to hear how it works for you then discuss tactics.

TopC wrote:hmmm ive never even ran an ion head lol..but these builds do look interesting

what about jockeying around for another squad of piranhas?
i think they might get a little more mileage than deepstrike suits as well as offer more board control and late game contesting..

Not to hard to jockey but you have to re-adjust one FW Team for foot Slogging. Then your trading 2 Markers, 3 RR shots a turn, your back up marker beacon for the next 3 Pirahna and the Gundrone squadron. Could be fun, Write the list up and post it. Then play around with it and let us know how it worked and if you liked it.

Gavo wrote:So this is how you deal with AV14 all-around...I was wondering where that came from.

Good job running this kind of list, every Tau person I see has railguns, I've never seen one without them.

This also works pretty dang well against the mech hell that is the current metagame.

By the way, do you suicide your suits to deal with AV14 campers like the Russ? Or do you just run your Piranhas towards them?

Thank you, My deep strikers have a pretty good survival rate because I rely heavily upon the marker beacons to aggressively position my teams. And Yes, My Heatwaves jump into a point about 6"-7" from the tank or other big shooty thing hidden in the back. I go for a point that blocks line of sight to the rest of my opponents army if able so if the vehicle doesn't blow up they are safe.
Because I often run the Piranha without DP(and vise versa) I use the Posi relay to try to bring them in second turn.

focusedfire wrote:

TopC wrote:hmmm ive never even ran an ion head lol..but these builds do look interesting

what about jockeying around for another squad of piranhas?
i think they might get a little more mileage than deepstrike suits as well as offer more board control and late game contesting..

Not to hard to jockey but you have to re-adjust one FW Team for foot Slogging. Then your trading 2 Markers, 3 RR shots a turn, your back up marker beacon for the next 3 Pirahna and the Gundrone squadron. Could be fun, Write the list up and post it. Then play around with it and let us know how it worked and if you liked it.

Was actually thinking more along the lines of...

cut 4 pathfinders, cut 3 rail rifles, move the fish over to FWs so its not slogging, Change some suits around, probably even cutting 1 team of deepstrike suits... although i really like having flechettes on piranhas...it makes them amazing ) yea it only works when the enemy hits them..but if your throwing them in the way... they gotta do something to get around lol

@ TopC- Can't wait to see the list.

@ All Posters- Any of you planning on playing these lists? If so, give the rest of us a heads and let us know what you think. I personally like this build and have had a fair bit of success. Finding out how others fair with this type of build helps to refine the tactics, though.

I plan on playing my updated list as soon as I have my stuff to play haha, moved to seattle not too long ago, so most of my stuff is still back in PA

I like that list a lot Focusedfire. I don't play as tau myself, but I play against them a LOT (though not for a few months since my tau target has been busy lately it seems...) My normal opponent usually runs lots of DS fusion/plasma teams, and I agree they are dead scary. Generally my exorcists fear nothing with multiple T4 wounds, but that much Str 8 and 6 dropping right behind them is a huge issue, requiring either rhino/sister bubble wrap or hiding them in a corner, both of which limit my effectiveness. Combine that with getting my transports stopped and popped by ion shots and the like, and I really have to get my damage done early because I can not rely on mobility to help me be everywhere at once.

If were to play Tau *spits* this is the list I would run, or something very similar (outflanking kroot are a hoot, as it were.)

Thank you for the compliment, Wehrkind. I know the jeopardy that you put yourself in by even thinking of the possibility of playing Tau(The =I= is always watching).

I've stated already the impetus for why I started working on this build but there were other reasons, too.

I had been playing mechanized meq lists that were out shooting my Tau by using multi-melta Speeder spam leading an armoured wall/turtle. When I started running this build, the Skimmer squadrons stopped being an issue and I was out shooting my opponents as is right and proper. Ion cannons do a wonderful number on Speeder squadrons.


Edit sentence structure

LOL how about this

HQ

Shas'o-, Fusion blaster, Missile pod, multi-tracker, stimulant injector, Hard-wired drone controller, 2xShield Drones-144

Troops

10xfirewarriors-60
DF-DP,2xSM-105

10xfirewarriors-60
DF-DP,2xSM-105

11xfirewarriors-100

Fast attack

5xpathfinders-60
DF-DP,2xSM-105

5xpathfinders-60
DF-DP,2xSM-105

5xpathfinders-60
DF-DP,2xSM-105

heavy support

Sky Ray-DP, BC-140

Sky Ray-DP, BC-140

Sky Ray-DP, BC-140

Total 1744

28 Seeker Missiles

21 Marker Lights

1 Suit

And some fire warriors to make use of the hell load of markerlights

In all probability this list would suck but i think it would be fun to play and maybe fun to play against.

@ChocolateGork- While not a fan of the SkyRay myself, the list does look fun. I do question the 5 Devil Fish and utter lack of heavy tank killing, though.

The changes I'd make would be:

Drop the 2 exrta devil fish for some Tank busting units

Or drop one D-fish and one Pathfinder unit, then bring the other 2 pf units up to full strength and invest in a piranha squadron to carry some Seekers.

The last could equal to:

30 Seekers

22 Markers

4 Fusion blasters

and enough room to adjust the list for another crisis suit.

What do you think?

Here is a Tau list without RG's I've been thinking of running for fun.
My experiance with Piranha squadrons of 4 with FB,DP,TA and 3 TL has been fantastic.
Including the droped drones you can engage 5 vehicles and/or units and it seems to last 2-3 rounds of consentrated counter fire from the majority of the army your attacking if you get a good first strike in, so it wasnt a leap to want to field a second and double the pain on mech lists.


1999pts

HQ 1:125
Shas'el BC,MP, HWDC, HWMT, PosR, x2 Shield Drones

HQ 2:148
Shas'o BC, PR, HWMT, Stim Inj, Ir Ar, VRT

Elite 1-3: 112, 112, 112
x3Stealthsuits x2 BC x1 FB x2 TL x1 TA

Troop 1: 145
6FW
Devilfish DP

Troop 2: 70
10 Kroot

Troop 3: 70
10 Kroot

Troop 4: 70
10 Kroot

Fast 1&2: 315, 315
x4 Piranha x4 DP, x4 TA, x4 FB, x3 TL

Fast 3: 165
x5 Pathfinders
Devilfish DP, x2 Seeker Missile

Heavy 1: 240
x3 Sniper Drone Teams

Deploy Sniper Drone Teams, Shas'el with Positional Relay and Pathfinders. Reserve FW, Flank Kroot and Piranha. Deepstrike Stealthsuit Teams and Shas'o.
Use Positional Relay for 2 Turns for tactical effect and open the flood gates turn 4.