Sarah Palin guilty of Sedition?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Frazzled**

Plus Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh...

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/04/20/sedition-and-the-end-of-americ

Sedition and the End of America's First Political Party
By Craig Evan Klafter on 4.20.10 @ 6:07AM

Over the past few days, several commentators have raised concerns about the tone of opposition to the Obama administration and the Democratic leadership in Congress. Commenting on the occasion of the anniversary of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, former President Clinton noted that "the words we use really do matter, because there's this vast echo chamber, and they go across space and they fall on the serious and the delirious alike. They fall on the connected and the unhinged alike." Clinton's words were measured; Time columnist Joe Klein's words as delivered on NBC's April 18 The Chris Matthews Show were not. He accused former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, along with Fox News host Glenn Beck, of sedition. "I did a little bit of research just before this show -- it's on this little napkin here," said Klein. "I looked up the definition of sedition which is conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of the state. And a lot of these statements, especially the ones coming from people like Glenn Beck and to a certain extent Sarah Palin, rub right up close to being seditious." New York magazine's John Heilemann agreed, and added Rush Limbaugh to the list because he described the Obama administration as a "regime."

Sedition first reared its head in American legislation in 1798. The Sedition Act (An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes against the United States; ch. 74, 1 Stat. 596) made it a crime to publish "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" against the government or its officials. It was enacted July 14, 1798 by a Federalist controlled administration and Congress, with an expiration date of March 3, 1801 (the day before John Adams' presidential term was to end). The Democratic-Republican opposition, led by Vice President Thomas Jefferson, denounced the Act as contrary to the First and Tenth Amendments to the United States Constitution, claiming that it was designed to stifle criticism of the administration and infringed on the right of the states to enact and enforce laws against defamation.

The Sedition Act was never appealed to the Supreme Court for review, although individual Supreme Court Justices, sitting in circuit, heard many of the cases prosecuting opponents of the Federalists. For example, Justice Samuel Chase (a staunch Federalist) heard a case against David Brown in 1798. Brown led a group in Dedham, Massachusetts, in constructing a "liberty pole" with the words, "No Stamp Act, No Sedition Act, No Alien Bills, No Land Tax, downfall to the Tyrants of America; peace and retirement to the President [Federalist John Adams]; Long Live the Vice President [Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson]." Brown was tried in Salem, Massachusetts, and attempted to plead guilty, but Justice Chase would not permit him, wanting him to name those who supported him. Brown refused, was fined $480, and sentenced to eighteen months in prison. In total, twenty-five people, primarily prominent newspaper editors, were arrested pursuant to the Act. Of them, ten were convicted of sedition, often in trials before openly partisan Federalist judges.

Although the Sedition Act expired (the day before the end of President Adams' term) before its constitutionality could be directly challenged, subsequent Supreme Court opinions have assumed its unconstitutionality. In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, the Court declared, "Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history." 376 U.S. 254, 276 (1964) and in a concurring opinion in Watts v. United States, which involved an alleged threat against President Lyndon Johnson, William O. Douglas noted, "The Alien and Sedition Laws constituted one of our sorriest chapters; and I had thought we had done with them forever ... Suppression of speech as an effective police measure is an old, old device, outlawed by our Constitution." 394 US 705 (1969).

Federalists hoped the Sedition Act would stifle political opposition, but many Democratic-Republicans still criticized the Federalists and made the Act a key election issue in 1800. That election resulted in the "Revolution of 1800" -- a landslide victory by Thomas Jefferson and in Federalists at all levels of government being turned out of office. The attempt to muffle criticism also later contributed to the demise of the Federalist Party. Congress repeatedly apologized for, and voted compensation to victims of, the enforcement of the Sedition Act. Thomas Jefferson pardoned all of those who had been so convicted.

President Clinton was right to note that words have consequences, but so do attempts to limit free speech. I do not ordinarily listen to Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh, but from what I have read and heard none of them has advocated the violent overthrow of the government. To the contrary, they have encouraged people to express their dissatisfaction through traditional and widely accepted means. At the Boston Tea Party rally on April 14, Sarah Palin spoke behind a podium sign that read "Just Vote Them Out" about "what a good old fashion election can fix." In an April 10, 2009 video cited by bloggers as evidence of sedition, Glenn Beck channelled Thomas Paine and asked people to "demand our non-representing representatives in Congress to restore commonsense to the national debate." Rush Limbaugh has acknowledged referring to the Obama administration as a "regime," but routinely advocates that his listeners and readers "write, call, or email [their] representatives." In Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), the Supreme Court reiterated that the First Amendment protected expressions overtly political in nature. Joe Klein and John Heilemann, and those who agree with them, should be mindful that the last time a dominant American political party attempted to limit the free speech of their political opposition that party was thrown out of office and soon ceased to exist.

Letter to the Editor

StumbleUpon| Digg| Reddit| Twitter| Facebook

**Tyyr**

So, peaceful opposition to the current government constitutes sedition? Well always nice to know where people stand on issues.

**Kilkrazy**

This article is saying;

(1) there isn't a law against sedition,

(2) even though there was once, it was never tested by the Supreme Court and could not be relied upon,

(3) Sarah Palin etc. are not saying things which would fall under this sedition law if it existed.

**Tyyr**

Yes, I realize this. I was commenting on Joe Klein's and John Heilemann's statements.

**Frazzled**

More discussion on the Joe Klein charge
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36020.html

Joe Klein: Yes, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck 'seditious'
Tags:Sarah Palin, Liberals, Conservatives, MSNBC, Joe Klein, Time Magazine, Glenn Beck Listen Print Comment Email Subscribe By ANDY BARR | 4/19/10 1:18 PM EDT Text Size- + reset

Time columnist Joe Klein (left) says he stands his assertion that Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin are coming close to being 'seditious' in their attacks on President Obama.
AP photo composite by POLITICO
Digg/Buzz It UpDigg this Story! Buzz it up! Add to LinkedIn POLITICO 44
Rebutting attacks from conservative critics, Time columnist Joe Klein on Monday said he stands his assertion that Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin are coming close to being “seditious” in their attacks on President Barack Obama.

During an appearance Sunday on NBC’s “The Chris Matthews Show,” Klein said that much of the heated political rhetoric “especially the ones coming from people like Glenn Beck and to a certain extent Sarah Palin, rub right up close to being seditious.”

Klein was criticized by conservatives over the remark – which received play on the Drudge Report, National Review and the conservative media monitor NewsBusters.

“Liberals are all too often eager to charge conservative personalities of using hyperbole to gain a political advantage, especially when it contradicts their world view - whether it's suggesting the Obama administration is taking the country down the path of socialism, fascism or any other –ism,” wrote NewsBusters’ Jeff Poor. “However, it could be argued there's a different set of standards for those same people when they want to make strong charges.”

Klein defended his comment in a post on Time’s blog “Swampland” Monday as not at all out of bounds.

“On the Chris Mathews Show Sunday, I said that some of the right-wing infotainment gasbags — people like Glenn Beck etc. — were nudging up close to the edge of sedition. This has caused a bit of a self-righteous ruckus on the right,” Klein wrote. “Let me be clear: dissent isn't sedition. Questioning an Administration's policies isn't sedition. But questioning an Administration's legitimacy in a manner intended to undermine or overthrow it certainly is.”

“It's not illegal—unless actions are taken to overthrow the government in question—but it is disgraceful and the precise opposite of patriotism in a democracy,” he added.

Back to top

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36020.html#ixzz0ldsFgK2F

**sexiest_hero**

They lie, flat out lie but if people want to belive the lie so be it.I think Bush Sr. was the last respected (Somewhat conservative. Shouldn't have got caught raising taxes. Regan got away with raising taxes oddly enough. Sara's husband is a dirty traiter. She is just foolish. These open carry rallies are bad news. Beck is crazy as hell, and Rush said the Iceland volcano happened because of health care. They have done nothing illegal yet though. I think they push some crazy nuts too far. I don't like how I'm an enemy to America just because my political belifs are different. It's like they only ont a one party system.

**generalgrog**

First of all I don't disagree with the Time journalist. I watched that Chris Matthews show, and what is not being shown in that copy paste is where they were playing snippits of comments by palin and beck where they "almost" encouraged people to use guns against the government. I can't remember right off hand the exact comments but they were borderline in my opinion. Basically playing up to the passions of their audiences love of guns.

So the guy said that they were "close" to being seditious, not "are" seditious. So technically, I agree with him. I also think it's a stunt and not a very well thought out one, since the tea partiers will view it as more "they're out to get us" stuff.

GG

**Demogerg**

Its all an act to keep us focused on the "little things" that dont really matter.

Demogerg's rules for American politics.

Never vote for an Incumbent
Never donate any money to politicians, they make enough money working the system and getting funded through their parties.
Never do volunteer work for any politician or party. They have enough drones who work for free and enough money to pay to get all their own work done for them
Never advertise who I will be voting for, there is no reason to give the number-crunchers more data to fine-tune their machinations of control.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Tyyr wrote:So, peaceful opposition to the current government constitutes sedition? .

Nope
I assume that in the States as here in Blighty there is a constitutional opposition to the government. It is how democracy tends to function.

Note that peaceful opposition is not the definition of sedition in the article qouted by Frazzled.

"false, scandalous, and malicious writing"

which almost corresponds with deformation in Civil Law.

Would also add that sedition has connotations with undermining government in an unconstitutional manner. At its worst infers conspiracy to treason.

**notprop**

She's guilty!

Too look that hawt, she must be doing something illegal!

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Thought for once a political discussion on Dakka could be informed and well balanced.

silly me

in any case she's more digitty dawg than hot

**ShumaGorath**

Demogerg wrote:Its all an act to keep us focused on the "little things" that dont really matter.

Demogerg's rules for American politics.

Never vote for an Incumbent
Never donate any money to politicians, they make enough money working the system and getting funded through their parties.
Never do volunteer work for any politician or party. They have enough drones who work for free and enough money to pay to get all their own work done for them
Never advertise who I will be voting for, there is no reason to give the number-crunchers more data to fine-tune their machinations of control.

If you never vote for the incumbent then you just advertised who you vote for.

Beck palin and limbaugh are massive douchebags, and I would question if beck could be guilty for insighting violence or unlawful activity (since he promotes a significant number of unlawful activities) but sedition is out of scope here.

**sebster**

The commentary from the right is pretty crazy and incendiary, totally out of perspective with the issues being discussed.

Klein's charge of 'almost treason' really isn't going to help that.

Demogerg wrote:Never vote for an Incumbent

....

Never advertise who I will be voting for

Ummm...

EDIT - Bah! Ninja'd by Shuma!

**Platuan4th**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Demogerg wrote:Its all an act to keep us focused on the "little things" that dont really matter.

Demogerg's rules for American politics.

Never vote for an Incumbent
Never donate any money to politicians, they make enough money working the system and getting funded through their parties.
Never do volunteer work for any politician or party. They have enough drones who work for free and enough money to pay to get all their own work done for them
Never advertise who I will be voting for, there is no reason to give the number-crunchers more data to fine-tune their machinations of control.

If you never vote for the incumbent then you just advertised who you vote for.

Last I checked, there were more than 2 names on the ballot on voting day.

If you actually read the post, he never said he cared if his selection mattered.

**ShumaGorath**

Platuan4th wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Demogerg wrote:Its all an act to keep us focused on the "little things" that dont really matter.

Demogerg's rules for American politics.

Never vote for an Incumbent
Never donate any money to politicians, they make enough money working the system and getting funded through their parties.
Never do volunteer work for any politician or party. They have enough drones who work for free and enough money to pay to get all their own work done for them
Never advertise who I will be voting for, there is no reason to give the number-crunchers more data to fine-tune their machinations of control.

If you never vote for the incumbent then you just advertised who you vote for.

Last I checked, there were more than 2 names on the ballot on voting day.

If you actually read the post, he never said he cared if his selection mattered.

So basically the entire post could have been replaced by "Ignore me my opinions on politics because my voting habits are intentionally irrelevant and arbitrary"

**Platuan4th**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Demogerg wrote:Its all an act to keep us focused on the "little things" that dont really matter.

Demogerg's rules for American politics.

Never vote for an Incumbent
Never donate any money to politicians, they make enough money working the system and getting funded through their parties.
Never do volunteer work for any politician or party. They have enough drones who work for free and enough money to pay to get all their own work done for them
Never advertise who I will be voting for, there is no reason to give the number-crunchers more data to fine-tune their machinations of control.

If you never vote for the incumbent then you just advertised who you vote for.

Last I checked, there were more than 2 names on the ballot on voting day.

If you actually read the post, he never said he cared if his selection mattered.

So basically the entire post could have been replaced by "Ignore me my opinions on politics because my voting habits are intentionally irrelevant"

Well, I see you could get that out of it. I read "Ignore me, my prejudiced ignorance on the system is showing."

**sebster**

Platuan4th wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:So basically the entire post could have been replaced by "Ignore me my opinions on politics because my voting habits are intentionally irrelevant"

Well, I see you could get that out of it. I read "Ignore me, my prejudiced ignorance on the system is showing."

I read "Ignore me, I've assumed a position of absolute ignorance as a cover for knowing absolutely nothing about politics"

**Mannahnin**

Inciting violence or rebellion? We had this discussion, didn't we?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289282.page

Klein's being inflammatory, but he qualified the comments- he said they're coming close to sedition, and that's no doubt correct. Some of the people supporting them are crazy enough to compare our current government to nazi facism or soviet totalitarianism, and to contemplate violence. Look at Tim McVeigh 15 years ago. There's certainly some of the same sentiments out there, and the Palins, Limbaughs, and Becks of the world do profit from feeding their anger, ignorance, and madness.

**Major Malfunction**

Meh. Just the Left doing what they do best.

Shift the argument from the topic to the motives of the speakers.
Insinuate malicious intent, hate, bigotry, whatever.
Name call.

I borrowed that from Herman Cain, another Conservative.

Where was all this talk of sedition when the Left was hanging GW in effigy, calling for his murder, etc.? Oh yeah... that was patriotic expression of free speech and totally different.

**gorgon**

The Green Git wrote:Meh. Just the Left doing what they do best.

Shift the argument from the topic to the motives of the speakers.

Yup. Just like when rightie whackjobs call Obama a Communist rather than address the problems with healthcare in this country.

I call it politics as usual from either side. You're the same as them to me.

**Kilkrazy**

Do you think such expressions of sentiment change their meaning depending on who makes them?

**Major Malfunction**

gorgon wrote:Yup. Just like when rightie whackjobs call Obama a Communist rather than address the problems with healthcare in this country.

I've never once heard anyone call Obama a Communist.

He's clearly a Socialist.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Do some people say Obama is a communist

**Ahtman**

The Green Git wrote:
gorgon wrote:Yup. Just like when rightie whackjobs call Obama a Communist rather than address the problems with healthcare in this country.

I've never once heard anyone call Obama a Communist.

He's clearly a Socialist.

Well, you didn't do one thing, but your rhetoric is just as nasty, broad, and stereotypical as the people you complain about. I'm with gorgon that parrots on both sides that toe the pundit lines are equally annoying. You say liberal like they conservative, and it makes me devalue your statements. It may not be your intention, but your political efficacy comes across as shallow and informed more by others then yourself. It may not be your intention, but it is what it is.

Of course I can't be blamed for any of this, I'm a non-voting felon.

Spoiler:

**Frazzled**

Mannahnin wrote:Inciting violence or rebellion? We had this discussion, didn't we?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289282.page

Klein's being inflammatory, but he qualified the comments- he said they're coming close to sedition, and that's no doubt correct. Some of the people supporting them are crazy enough to compare our current government to nazi facism or soviet totalitarianism, and to contemplate violence. Look at Tim McVeigh 15 years ago. There's certainly some of the same sentiments out there, and the Palins, Limbaughs, and Becks of the world do profit from feeding their anger, ignorance, and madness.

mcVeigh didn't give a

about Limbaugh. He went to war over Ruby Ridge and the fact the people responsible were promoted. Same to same for Waco.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Inciting violence or rebellion? We had this discussion, didn't we?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289282.page

Klein's being inflammatory, but he qualified the comments- he said they're coming close to sedition, and that's no doubt correct. Some of the people supporting them are crazy enough to compare our current government to nazi facism or soviet totalitarianism, and to contemplate violence. Look at Tim McVeigh 15 years ago. There's certainly some of the same sentiments out there, and the Palins, Limbaughs, and Becks of the world do profit from feeding their anger, ignorance, and madness.

mcVeigh didn't give a about Limbaugh. He went to war over Ruby Ridge and the fact the people responsible were promoted. Same to same for Waco.

Mcveigh was a special kind of nutjob. The kind that didn't really need prodding from popular media sources. Thats not to say beck isn't raising a generation of fanatical idiots though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Green Git wrote:
gorgon wrote:Yup. Just like when rightie whackjobs call Obama a Communist rather than address the problems with healthcare in this country.

I've never once heard anyone call Obama a Communist.

He's clearly a Socialist.

You are clearly deaf. Get that checked.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Inciting violence or rebellion? We had this discussion, didn't we?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289282.page

Klein's being inflammatory, but he qualified the comments- he said they're coming close to sedition, and that's no doubt correct. Some of the people supporting them are crazy enough to compare our current government to nazi facism or soviet totalitarianism, and to contemplate violence. Look at Tim McVeigh 15 years ago. There's certainly some of the same sentiments out there, and the Palins, Limbaughs, and Becks of the world do profit from feeding their anger, ignorance, and madness.

mcVeigh didn't give a about Limbaugh. He went to war over Ruby Ridge and the fact the people responsible were promoted. Same to same for Waco.

Mcveigh was a special kind of nutjob. The kind that didn't really need prodding from popular media sources. Thats not to say beck isn't raising a generation of fanatical idiots though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Green Git wrote:
gorgon wrote:Yup. Just like when rightie whackjobs call Obama a Communist rather than address the problems with healthcare in this country.

I've never once heard anyone call Obama a Communist.

He's clearly a Socialist.

You are clearly deaf. Get that checked.

Clinton was tying the talkie talkie to McVeigh. My point is it didn't have anything to do with McVeigh.

**dietrich**

notprop wrote:She's guilty!

To look that hawt, she must be doing something illegal!

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Sarah Palin.........

**Orkeosaurus**

Just the same attempt to stifle opposition that went on with the "you're with the terrorists!" era of the Bush administration.

Warning people of a "crime" that not only doesn't exist, but can't exist due to the protections afforded by constitution, is also very silly. Let's warn Obama that he's close to violating Jim Crow laws while we're at it.