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So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

Two rank shooting seems interesting. As you've mentioned, most will simply go 2 ranks of five, though hills provide some other options. I think this is something that helps infantry armies too- as you can take infantry shooters and the huge long lines won't disrupt things as much as they currently do. It's why I don't usually run thunderers or quarrellers in my armies.

I agree about the 'step up' rule being a pain to HE (and to a lesser degree DE) due to their fragility. As a dwarf generally striking last anyways, it provides a mild boost, though I typically don't kill much anyhow.

RZ

All I know is that I am currently having a star dragon converted aat great expense and I've dropped a few hundred over the last year in buying up HEs and have just started assembing them.

Now after the release of al the rumours I'm putting everything on hold and will be going back to 40k after a 4 year hiatus... the percentages are going to kill my dreams of dragon riding general. :(

Also I'll expand my Lizardmen as I have some tourneys in August that will be using 7th ed rules.

I know high elves rely on it, as well as my dark elves, but i personally think ASF is poorly done.

Charging is meant to be an advantage, but always strikes first completely takes that away.

I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

boogeyman wrote:I really don't think GW cares about the game play.

http://www.bugeatergames.com/?p=123

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

I think that knowing GW the rumors are ture...Just look at some of the stuff that has recently came out - SW, BA, and Skaven to name a few.

cptjoeyg wrote:I think that knowing GW the rumors are ture...Just look at some of the stuff that has recently came out - SW, BA, and Skaven to name a few.

What are you getting at with Skaven hehe? They are a decent army, but not nearly as strong as daemons, DE, or VC.

Specs wrote:So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

1) Yeah I honestly think that the Daemon book was written the 25% understanding in mind. 2 things are going to happen with this change IMO. Characters on dragons are going to become much, much more powerful because the number of tools that someone may have to deal with it will become tougher to take. Players will not be able to depend on Magic to win a game for them either. Coupled with this (and this is important) is that most games are going to be played at 3k points, and 3k is going to become the tournament standard, giving a tad more flexibility because you'll have 750 points to putter around with.

2) Combat is a whole new ballgame. One of the most prevalent attached rumors to the "step up" rule is that no matter how many attacks the model has, it still will only get one attack if it had to step up. Since it sounds like multiple ranks will be able to attack in combat now (2 standard, 3 for spears, 5 ranks for elf spears!!!) a typical 6x2 swordmasters unit is going to have 25 attacks before anything resolves. Even if they do take a few wounds collaterally, they are still going to rock face against whatever they end up attacking.

3)With 5 ranks of attacks? Uhh. That means all of your models are pretty much always attacking. 7x5 plus full command is 35 attacks. We start to get into the realm of both silly, and effective when talking about that sort of weight of attacks, especially when ASF comes into the mix.

4) The cheaper the archer, the more effective the rule. Elf Archers are the most expensive, meaning they benefit less.

HE Cavalry are going to be massively less effective unless they are 2 attack base cavalry or have the lance formation. This is because you don't get multiple ranks of attacks. So you come in with 7 str 5 attacks and then another 6 str 3 attacks, and your opponent fights back with whatever he's got left. High Elves on foot point for point are simply going to have a stronger weight of attacks.

I'm scared of 8th edition.

What is Warhammer coming to?

I thought the whole fight-in-two ranks was dismissed as an incorrect account of the step-forward change. If it wasn't and all infantry does fight in 2 ranks, plus an extra for spears and another for martial prowess, pless step-forward, then our infantry will be pretty good. The more I look at things, the more I think we'll be seeing a lot more LSG.

I'm not scared of 8th ed., I'm actually looking forward to it. WFB is all about infantry blocks. If everything became monsters and skirmishers then it'd just be 40k. I want to see a more block focussed game, but I just hope I don't have to shoe-box all my models and replace them to have a half-way competitive army. Hopefully, the FAQs, etc... will help balance things.

P.S. GW: While you're making changes, don't forget to make Silver Helms core.

but I just hope I don't have to shoe-box all my models and replace them to have a half-way competitive army. Hopefully, the FAQs, etc... will help balance things.

That is what I'm scared about

And you know what will make THAT happen?

Percentages.

ShivanAngel wrote:

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

Problem for GW is that their whole existence is focused on selling minis. The rules are a means to do that.
Why would anyone buy a dragon mounted model anywmore?
I assume all mounts will be included in the cost.
So a Skaven Grey Seer on a doombell will be the only character in a 2000 point skaven army.
Seems pretty dumb doesn't it?
This is probably why there have been rumours they are going to 3000 points as a 'base' game (IMHO just stupid as will take too long to get an army of that size) but it will allow you a big character and 1-2 heroes.

Well, while I'll still get the new starter set for the new High Elf models...I'm gonna hold off on doing anything drastic with my Asur until we get the Rule Book.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

Problem for GW is that their whole existence is focused on selling minis. The rules are a means to do that.
Why would anyone buy a dragon mounted model anywmore?
I assume all mounts will be included in the cost.
So a Skaven Grey Seer on a doombell will be the only character in a 2000 point skaven army.
Seems pretty dumb doesn't it?
This is probably why there have been rumours they are going to 3000 points as a 'base' game (IMHO just stupid as will take too long to get an army of that size) but it will allow you a big character and 1-2 heroes.

Yeah the mounts are the only things that are getting me atm, and how to do them. My only guess is the cost of your mount may be taken out of your rare or special in some cases? So many of these rumors conflict or completely change the game. Its basically if this happens then there is no way this will happen. But if this and this happen that cant happen..

For me the problem isn't the base rules (sure they can do with fine tuning every edition). It SHOULD be, essentially a stable game system- they have had 25 years to perfect it.

The problem is the studio's inability to write army books that work within the rules of the games.
They are just way too sloppy with special rules, stats, points and magic item combos.

Which is why every black guard unit in DE armies suddenly has the ASF banner, or the drakenhof banner on every grave guard unit, or evey daemon army has fleash hounds, flamers and horrors.

They were doing a good job up until HE (when they screwed silver helms and ellyrian reavers and to a lesser extent overpriced spearmen) then it all fell apart after VC.

So basically...2250 will be the new 1500....

Mother....so what, I just have to buy another 750 points of models for tournies, after I JUST bought my $300 worth of 2250 points.

I'm not made of money, GW can only go so far with their prices before people just start saying "No"

@Waaagh - I'm with you on that. I feel like a lot of the changes they're putting into this are fixing problems that either weren't really big problems or were problems of specific books/builds.

Prior to the HE books, we had which books?

-Bretonnia
-Empire
-O&G
-Ogre Kingdoms
-Wood Elves
-Dwarfs
-Tomb Kings (sort of).

All reasonably balanced against each other (can't speak for Brets or Ogres, though).

Then High Elves came around which caused an uproar because of the Army-wide ASF (which was less game-breaking than people thought).

Then VC which escalated the Magic Phase creep and started the trend toward super-killy heroes.

Dark Elves continued the Army-Wide special rule creep with Eternal Hatred and just had "no question" units like Black Guard. It also really pushed the "un-killable" Lord/Hero trend with the crazy armor/ward/regen combinations that you could provide them. Monster Hammer really started showing up here. Some just stupid magic item pricing.

Daemons was just plain dumb-powerful. Army Wide Fear/Ward Save/ITP with decent stats all around to boost? Stupid amounts of Magic.

Lizardmen - More monsters. More Magic. More 4+ armor. More attacks per model.

Warriors - actually, I've got no experience with these guys, can't say.

Skaven - don't know much about these guys, but seems like more "obvious choice" monsters, sloppy and unclear rules

Beasts - even more monsters with crazy abilities (not necessarily unbalanced, but just more and more of them).

Specs wrote:
1. More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

1) Won't you be able to field a Moon or Sun Dragon? Also, i though the standard size tourny game will be 3k instead of 2k. That will be a max of 750 points, sun dragon plus lord, plus 100 pnts of magic items is 480 pnts. Upgrade to moon is 550.

4) So does this mean archers on a hill will be able to fire in three ranks? If so, lothern seaguard will be much better than they are now.

Hello all,

I believe we are all getting off to a bad start, we know certain rules are just flat not going to happen, no matter what some of the Warseer posters are saying. I am not going into them all but here are a few I know are BS, and some are likely true and why I think that.

Percentages:
-This is just a wishlist rumor from some of the guys on Warseer, and I have less than 0 confidence in it being true, hell that is the kind of thing that gets a book writer fired, (and possibly lynched by players.) In fact if it is true, I suggest that we get a movement together to get said writer fired.

Magic changes:
-These are really stupid as GW, has learned from past versions to follow the first rule (KISS), keep it simple stupid.
-Now some of the rules are still kind of wonky but those are for balance, that was figured out in previous editions.

Combat Changes:
-Step up: Possibly could be added to increase profit margin to GW, as people will buy larger units. This seems very reasonable and quite possible.

-One save not layered saves: This is also likely for the same reason, but I won't like it since I am a fan of Phoenix Guard, but oh well.

Movement Changes:
-Heavy Cavalry can't march: This seems very reasonable and once again will return the focus to infantry blocks where they make more money. . . I actually expect this, possibly with some more movement spells.

Where do you get the idea that percentages are a warseer wishlist rumour?

Reliable sources (including our own Reds8n) have stated time and again that this is one of the most confident assertions regarding the 8th edition rules. When people with good track records of giving reliable early information say the same thing repeatedly, I'm inclined to believe them.

What strikes me is that lots of people don't want there to be percentages because of the changes that it (may) mean to their armies. However, there are a number of factors to consider here.

1. Although there is high confidence that percentages will be introduced, the exact figures are still unknown. It could be 25%, but could well go as high as 50% - a level which would pretty well retain the status quo for most people's current selections.
2. The increase is standard game size to 3,000 points would mean that even a 25% restriction will still give you 750 points to spend on characters. Yes, you would not be able to take a lord on dragon with 3 powerful support charcters, you would be forced to make the choice between more characters or better characters - and these characters will be in an environment where they do not dominate the game due to the high numbers of RnF. Is this not just forcing you to think more tactically and to refocus the game from being a hero duel to a confrontation of armies?
3. Army composition changes every time there is a new edition of the rules and a new edition of an army book. It is a fundamental part of being involved with GW for more than a couple of years. Change will happen, on a regular basis. If it wasn't this that was changing, it would be something else.

Ultimately, whatever the change it will need dealing with but on its own merits and with whatever the final facts turn out to be. If you decide you cannot live with the changes the GW has lost a customer - but don't fool yourself into thinking that they'll lose sleep over the fact. There are far more people who will either agree with the changes or at least not care enough to let it drive them away.

I'd be running units of 20 archers to get to the 25% quota if the fire in 2 ranks is true, I'd be used to running them 10 wide currently anyway so why not take advantage of it. Suddenly makes shooting spam viable, and will make wood eld glade guard devestating....

As an example I just came up with this gem for 3000 points to fit in with the rumoured army changes.
NOTE: I could get rid of the prince and go magic spam, which will probably end up being better for the army and replace the white lions with more shadow warriors.

Prince, star dragon, Halbard, vambraces defence, armour caledor, amulet of light
Mage, level 1, dispel scroll.
24.8%

CORE:
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
36.8%

SPECIAL:
20 White Lions, full command, standard of balance
6 shadow warriors
6 shadow warriors
5 shadow warriors
21.7%

RARE:
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great eagle
Great Eagle
16.7%

'Dice rolling to amuse me and piss off my opponent for 4 turns'hammer with thanks to the new rules.

There isn't much that will survive 117 BS 4 Longbows and 4 repeater bolt throwers whilst Eagles and shadow warriors are busy redirecting and march blocking. Anything does get through it gets flank/rear charged by the prince and dragon.

Noone wins with this rubbish.

Oddly enough, the percentage caps weren't really something that I minded among the rumors. I find them to be one of the less objectionable issues of the rumors.

The fact that they're really gonna reduce the speed of our heavy cavalry (Silver Helms without shields will be an option finally, though) is going to hurt. And that shooting in two rows business will be more trouble for Swordmasters to deal with.

While I'm not opposed to those rules changes in a holistic sense, the HE army book + new rules I suspect will 'encourage' shootier options for High Elves.

I notice little mention of what D6+4 terrain pieces mean. Can any of you see shooty HE lists working anywhere near as effectively with an average of almost double the pieces of terrain on the board? That's going to muck up a lot of Bolt Throwers and Archer Lines from being used effectively alongside blocks that need to cover the gaps in cover.

Minsc wrote:I notice little mention of what D6+4 terrain pieces mean. Can any of you see shooty HE lists working anywhere near as effectively with an average of almost double the pieces of terrain on the board? That's going to muck up a lot of Bolt Throwers and Archer Lines from being used effectively alongside blocks that need to cover the gaps in cover.

Huge amounts of terrain will also hamper the enemy getting to you and allow funneling of them through the gaps in the terrain. Which is why I took 3 scouting units in the above list.

I once had the misfortune of playing against WEs with my lizardmen at 2500 points on a table with 2 hills (opposite corners )and 9 woods, one of which was the WE player's wood.

I couldn't make it past half way accross the table as I physically couldn't fit more than one unit through a gap between the forests at a time. He got into the woods to march block me and then just blew away each unit as it entered a gap.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In retrospect I think I would take units of 10 archers instead of 20- 10 of them in the above list, just for points denial and have more quarter capturers.

I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I don't mind the whole precent caps for various selections like Characters or special choices. I wasn't so bad back in the day (I'm remembering the when I started High Elves back in 1995).

I only hope that spear elves can wear heavy armour again, so I can use them to hold a battle line again...

Percentages don't bother me. I was always bothered by the I'll take the min number of archers and fill as many specials as I possibly can. I tend to wait on the new book rather than fear potential changes that may be playtested out before release.

Jin wrote:Oddly enough, the percentage caps weren't really something that I minded among the rumors. I find them to be one of the less objectionable issues of the rumors.

The fact that they're really gonna reduce the speed of our heavy cavalry (Silver Helms without shields will be an option finally, though) is going to hurt. And that shooting in two rows business will be more trouble for Swordmasters to deal with.

While I'm not opposed to those rules changes in a holistic sense, the HE army book + new rules I suspect will 'encourage' shootier options for High Elves.

RETURN OF ITHILMAR BARDING!!!!!!!!

In earlier editions the speed of cavalry was reduced by the 1" for Heavy Armour and 1" for barding, but the High Elves Ithilmar took away the 1" for heavy armor, but left the barding hindrance there. 6th ed got rid of the heavy armour penalty so they gave the Elves ithilmar barding that negated that rule too, but took it away in 7th ed for some reason :( Now maybe, just maybe we'll get it back.