Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This exact thing happened to eldar when 5th edition came out.

They removed the killzone from close combats, allowing close combat casualties to be taken from the back, and also they added a defender reaction, which would be analagous to removing clipping.

Simultanously, they let supporting attackers (not in base to base) get to attack with their full attacks.

This is step for step exactly what is happening to combat, with the steadfast rule stacked on top of it.

You don't want to know what happened to eldar close combat units in 5th edition.

And please, I understand that the games are very different.... but the design philosophy for both armies is the same. High initiative, devastating attacks on low toughness, bad armor save units. And the game is changing in very similar ways in terms of the combat phase.

My guess... High elves will survive by relying on the same thing that eldar relied on in the 5th ed change. Maneuverability, excellent shooting, and a few all star stand out units that are so good that they defy the nerfing they got.

Shep wrote:
My guess... High elves will survive by relying on the same thing that eldar relied on in the 5th ed change. Maneuverability, excellent shooting, and a few all star stand out units that are so good that they defy the nerfing they got.

Thats what they survive on now

I don't post on this forum much.. I do so mostly on Warseer and Ulthuan.net.. but here are some articles I wrote to help you guys on 8th Ed. High Elf changes.

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-lords-and-heroes.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-units.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic.html

Enjoy the read Princes

Hey HERO,

I read these articles that you copy-pasted on ulthuan.net. Some comments -

Princes - I'm still not convinced that they'll be terribly worthwhile outside of a Dragon build (which, I know, you were rating at 2k levels). They're still twice as expensive as a Noble and really only contribute a little more to battle than a Noble (though the Ld10 will be nice, I'm not convinced it's quite worth the points). The main advantage is his survivability since you've more options for armor (I so wish Vambraces of Defense were just 5 points cheaper). Also, I suspect the Ogreblade will be the "go-to" weapon for any High Elf Princes this edition (given our S4, that +2S bonus is huge).

BSBs - I think, given the fact that magic has apparently become devastating when successful, that a BSB will default to the Banner of the World Dragon in this edition. Gaining immunity to any/all spell effects is just going to be huge, and the benefits of the D6 CR is somewhat diminished given the new Steadfast rules for break tests (and considering the points costs of HE models, the opponent will more than likely benefit from the rule).

DPs - I can kind of see the appeal of running a 10+ strong unit of Dragon Princes...but given TLOS rules, that seems like a very dangerous prospect, especially if your opponent has lots of warmachines.

Think I'd rather un 10 silver helms TBH. Cheaper and do the same thing the DP's are supposed to do.

Cav is the new flank breaker in this edition, get it as cheaply as possible.

Eh...I'm still not sold on Silver Helms. Yes, they're better now that they get re-rolls against a lot of enemies, but they're still 7 points less for 50% less attacks and without the ability to take a magic standard.

At the very least, they benefit more from having a second rank than the DPs (DP's lose out on 1 attack) and don't compete for "slots" anymore. If they were 21 points with shields and no barding, I think they'd be a more popular choice but the lack of a Magic banner hurts them quite a bit.

excellent articles. I have decieded that once I get my 2nd box of silver helms painted, I will have to get a block of PG. I think in this edition they will one of the most used units in HE armies. Plus they look sweet.

Phoenix Guard are definitely the "winners" of the High Elf elite infantry. With I6, they'll be getting the re-roll benefits of ASF almost all the time, and that 4+ Ward save remains the best armor save of any HE troops.

@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

2nd rank of horses don't hit. Not a huge impact on the overall statistics, just pointing out.

I don't disagree with most of your points. Yes, both units share the same role in the army, and admittedly, with the Force Organization and ASF changes, Silverhelms became a much more viable and attractive option since they are no longer hampered by fighting for a Special Slot.

However, your argument is also somewhat disingenuous since a similarly sized unit of Dragon Princes would have 16 WS5, S5 attacks on the charge + horse attacks meaning they have ~50% more reliability for only about 33% more cost. Not to mention the fact that, as stated before, Dragon Princes can gain benefits from Magical Banners which can really propel them in usefulness. In the event that the enemy manages to hold anyways and you're stuck in subsequent rounds of combat, the Dragon Princes will definitely come out on top over the Silverhelms. The immunity to flaming attacks is a nice bonus.

Can the unit of Silverhelms usually get the job done? Probably. Assuming you're hitting on 4's against T4 (likely case), You'll get 8.25 hits (not going to include horses into the equation since their numbers are equal) and 5.5 wounds on the charge dealt out. Similar unit of Dragon Princes (let's say they're hitting on 4's to even things out) will get 12 hits and around 8 wounds. This is assuming the DP's aren't hitting WS4 or lower. For a little over 30% the price, you almost 50% increase in effectiveness.

Ultimately, the value of that point difference becomes an issue of personal opinion.

I can see a HE player using both. The Silverhelms being used to flank the softer blocks of infantry or going war machine hunting. The Dragon Princes would be used to take out some of the harder targets on the field.

HERO wrote:I don't post on this forum much.. I do so mostly on Warseer and Ulthuan.net.. but here are some articles I wrote to help you guys on 8th Ed. High Elf changes.

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-lords-and-heroes.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-units.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic.html

Enjoy the read Princes

Where is the list of the new items he talks about? One of them is the book of ashur or something like that.

Someone on Ulthuan.net posted up the list of new Common Magic items. Too lazy to hunt down the link at the moment, though.

Jin wrote:Hey HERO,

I read these articles that you copy-pasted on ulthuan.net. Some comments -

Princes - I'm still not convinced that they'll be terribly worthwhile outside of a Dragon build (which, I know, you were rating at 2k levels). They're still twice as expensive as a Noble and really only contribute a little more to battle than a Noble (though the Ld10 will be nice, I'm not convinced it's quite worth the points). The main advantage is his survivability since you've more options for armor (I so wish Vambraces of Defense were just 5 points cheaper). Also, I suspect the Ogreblade will be the "go-to" weapon for any High Elf Princes this edition (given our S4, that +2S bonus is huge).

BSBs - I think, given the fact that magic has apparently become devastating when successful, that a BSB will default to the Banner of the World Dragon in this edition. Gaining immunity to any/all spell effects is just going to be huge, and the benefits of the D6 CR is somewhat diminished given the new Steadfast rules for break tests (and considering the points costs of HE models, the opponent will more than likely benefit from the rule).

DPs - I can kind of see the appeal of running a 10+ strong unit of Dragon Princes...but given TLOS rules, that seems like a very dangerous prospect, especially if your opponent has lots of warmachines.

Hey man,

The BSB with the Banner of World Dragon is viable in this edition, but I think magic banners kind of went down this Ed. The reason why is because the BSB is such an important centerpiece in the army that you want him to stay alive. As you noticed on my BSBs, the armor configuration best optimizes his suvivability. This doesn't mean that things like the Banner Banner or BoWD is out, but just a lot more risky than before. That and the fact that you can't park a Noble on a Horse in a unit of Infantry and still benefit from the 2+ LOS! rule. It becomes 4+ now.

As for the DPs vs the Silverhelm discussion, I still think the Dragon Princes are better for 7 points more per model. +1 WS/A/I and Dragon Armor keeps them competitive imo. Especially since the first rank gets to attack and the back rank of riders get to poke through, the amount of the damage they can deliver on the charge is very worthwhile. Immunity to fire attacks keeps them safe against the likes of lore of fire and metal, and some light, and keeps them safe from Dwarven Cannons that take Rune of Burning.

If guns and warmachines bother you, I think its time to look into those new Ellyrion Reavers we should be getting in September. I'll be sure to give them a try since they can Vanguard move and threaten Warmachines from across the board on your first turn.

I'm writing up another Magic article today.. it's going to be on Death, Light and Beast lores. We all know what High Magic does for HE and I'm not going to get into Fire and Heavens. Heavens just doesn't put out enough damage and hexes/debuffs that I like, and the only thing good out of the Fire Lore is Flaming Swords. But then again, I'm competitive

Also i dont know if anyone noticed, but the BSB is worth 100 victory points+ whatever you spent on the magic banner.

So some BSB's could be worth upwards of 150 points.

@Shivan - didn't notice that. That could be dangerous .

@HERO -
Oh, I don't disagree with your points on the survivability of the BSB. Just commenting on your choice of suggesting a Battle Banner build in the article. Magic Standards are definitely a lot riskier now with the decreased safety of hiding in units and the aforementioned VPs for Banners, but I suppose that's a somewhat fair trade off to get some great buffs from Magic Banners.

Agreed on your points on the DPs. Given the nastiness of the new Lores, that Dragon Armor may be a life-saver.

Given that I never had success with the Reavers, I'm pretty anxious to give them a try (as well as getting the new models! ). Eagles should also have a bit of an easier time taking out warmachines as well, so they'll likely remain valid options.

Ragnar4 wrote:@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

From what I understand about the new rules, flank charge doesn't negate stubborn. It only negates the rank bonus to combat. So neither will probably break the opponent by themselves, but DPs put you in a much better position.

About LoFire, i dont see it being taken a lot in tournies.

Mainly due to the fact that if the army has immune to fire units or what not the lore is pretty useless.

Killjoy00 wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

From what I understand about the new rules, flank charge doesn't negate stubborn. It only negates the rank bonus to combat. So neither will probably break the opponent by themselves, but DPs put you in a much better position.

Gads! I had been told different by a buddy. Yeah if they don't crack stubborn then DP's have a better shot at it.

New article up, covering 4 more lores:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic-part-2_25.html

Since the standard sized game will be 3k, you'll still be able to have that Star Dragon-riding Lord.

eledamris wrote:Since the standard sized game will be 3k, you'll still be able to have that Star Dragon-riding Lord.

Proof of such claims?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways, I posted another tactica:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-making-list.html

And another post on strategy:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-strategy.html

Anyone get a chance to try out Reavers in the new edition?

Waiting for the Battle box and plastic Reavers before I try

I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

Jin wrote:I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

You're focusing on the wrong stat here. M9 is the important one. Ability to move on the turn they rally if they fled from a charge is huge too. You're not paying one single point for their bows, you're paying a premium for a disruption unit.

Vanguard move with a wizard in the unit so you can get that unit on turn one to a flank, then use some direct line spells, or some 12 inch burst spells, or short lengh big boom spells. Also sounds... fun.

Fair enough points. Having no real prior experience running fast cav I'm still incredibly unsteady with regards to what they can do (I have seen DE Dark Riders wreak havoc, though, through shooting alone).

However, don't Fast Cav generally lose their Fast Cav status if a hero without the rule joins them? (Ergo no Vanguard?)

Ragnar4 wrote:

Jin wrote:I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

You're focusing on the wrong stat here. M9 is the important one. Ability to move on the turn they rally if they fled from a charge is huge too. You're not paying one single point for their bows, you're paying a premium for a disruption unit.

Vanguard move with a wizard in the unit so you can get that unit on turn one to a flank, then use some direct line spells, or some 12 inch burst spells, or short lengh big boom spells. Also sounds... fun.

Another problem that arises, with free reform on a failed charge with a ld test and musician. Coupled with the fact that you can restrain charges on a ld test, Charge baiting with fast cavalry got a lot worse in 8th edition.

You want the lore of metal as high elves really... Give your lothern seaguard +1 to hit and armor piercing so you can shoot, stand and shoot then spear them all with -1 armor save. You can also cast plague of rust and transmutation of lead to give a unit a -2 armor save.. glimmering robes can give your entire army 5+ scaly skin as well

OR can cast the above on sword masters, phoenix guard or white lions and negate all saves basically