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Incidentally, apparently the rumors of the Heavy cavalry not being able to march have been nixed.

Ithilmar barding was nice in 6th.

Ah, I can't keep up, but apparently high elves will have an exception to the special restrictions (only 3 of one type) or rare restrictions (only 2 of one type) because they're an elite army? Makes sense... was wondering how HE would cope with 25% core (well, I'm still wondering that...)

Sorry if that's already been covered in this thread!

Durandal wrote:I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I wouldnt chock this up to only younger players...

I know plenty of adults that couldnt add up a list correctly if their life depended on it.I was a math tutor in college and there were adults who didnt even get order of operations..... Luckily we have things like army builder that do it for us.

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and multiply by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

ShivanAngel wrote:

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and divide by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

And you were a math tutor?

(dividing by .25 is the same as multiplying by 4) I think you meant to type "multiply by .25". Most army tabulation is done in advance... I don't see percentages being a problem, ESP if the rumors of tourny sizes changing is true...

Platuan4th wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and divide by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

And you were a math tutor?

gak

Thats why i tutored in the afternoon and not 730 am....

Part of the rumored 500 page behomoth of a rulebook we're looking at is actually each army is going to be getting a bit of a "treatment" to bring the old book in line with current rules.

So there's really no reason at this juncture to speculate on potential % caps for the HE's.

After doing some Testing. I must say that Spearmen being 7x3 wil be a thing of the past. 5x5 for Spearmen is going to be the new rage for HE. Meanwhile all of the other races will move to 7x3 for their spearmen.

The rumours are so varied, and so many require a complete retyink of the high Elf army that this is very difficult to call.

I am prepared to wait.

However one thing I suspect is that High Elf archery will not get the price drop it needs because they have the 'advantage' now of firing in two ranks. I cannot afford one rank of archers let alone two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Durandal wrote:I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I wouldnt chock this up to only younger players...

I know plenty of adults that couldnt add up a list correctly if their life depended on it.I was a math tutor in college and there were adults who didnt even get order of operations..... Luckily we have things like army builder that do it for us.

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and multiply by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

I copncur with this. Jervis wants to dumb down the game removing options and choice in the name of clarity and then adds percentages. How idiotic.

Well, reading through the newer set of confirmed/strong rumors, some observations:

ASF + ASL (Great Weapons) = Fight at Initiative value. Coupled with
ASF + I greater than opponent = Re-roll to hit

Means that Swordmasters and White Lions won't be nerfed. Against most armies, this means that they just got a nice boost since now they'll get re-rolls against most non-elven enemies. Coupled with High WS + extra attacks from second ranks means that they'll do a lot more damage per combat than before.

The second rumor mentioned also will help make PG a more viable damage-dealer as well (puts them on par with Black Guard now).


Fight with one more rank, spears fight with +1, Stubborn if you have more ranks than the enemy -

I think I'm gonna start running spears 6x4 now. These guys are actually gonna be quite nasty against most non-elven infantry. They'll take more hits in general from the enemy, but more likely than not, you'll be causing more casualties per combat as well. (You go from 50% chance of hitting -assuming you need 4's- to 75% chance of hitting. If you're hitting on 3's, that's an increase from 67%->88% hit rate).


No more S7 Chariot auto-kill
Obviously this makes chariots more viable (and makes the Lion Chariot not as bad a point sink if hit by a cannon or something).


Must have 2 ranks to negate flanks
Cavalry in general is getting a bit hit by this. Those 5-6 strong Dragon Princes will still do decent damage, but you'll have to overcome the +2-3 rank bonuses on the charge (shouldn't be terrible. Rubber-lance syndrome should be mitigated for them a lot).


Fast cavalry and Skirmishers
Well, at least Reavers will be faster at what they do now. Not quite sure how Shadow Warriors will fare (other than boosts from ASF + Higher Init).


General Shooting Rules
This is gonna be an across the board pain in the butt, and we'll see more Stone-Throwers in other armies. While the combat rumors suggest that we'll get a pretty decent buff to combat, we'll be taking more hits from shooting. I suspect the old MSU-style lists will be less prevalent.

Archers are still over-priced. LSG are somewhat more valid now.


Percentage Caps, Redundancy Caps
Obviously, the 2x 10 Archers minimum lists are no longer going to be valid. 2 Large Block of Spears/LSG + 10 Archers will likely be my go to infantry base. The bump in Core reqs means less Heroes or Specials. Star Dragon Princes will be limited to 2.5k games at minimum.


Magic
Teclis has been toned down a bit, and scroll caddies won't be _as_ necessary as before. Though a Lvl 2 using High Magic with Silver Wand and scroll (or RoF) doesn't seem like a bad choice.


Granted, this is all speculation based off of the most recent rumors. Still, I don't think it'll work out horribly for the High Elves. The biggest worry is now going to be the enemy shooting phase, IMO. While I'm still uncertain about how Movement/Magic will work out, it doesn't seem to bad for the elves.

Silver Helms still suck.

Specs wrote:So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR RUMORS

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

That percent rules are true.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

That is also true, you now remove dead units from the rear, and any remaining units can still attack back.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

That is also true.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

I think that I will run a 30-50 block of LSG. I think with the chariot taking 3 wounds to drop, may make Korhil on Chariot very fun to play as an assassin I think

I wonder if the chariots will be subjected to the rumor of shared profile when having chars mounted in them. T3 chariots will not be cool.

cypher wrote:I wonder if the chariots will be subjected to the rumor of shared profile when having chars mounted in them. T3 chariots will not be cool.

I do agree with that, however I wonder by sticking a char in a chariot it would increase the stats of said chariot for example the Daemon chariots in 40k. Yes one profile but with 5 wounds is still pretty decent.

Can any one say high elf spear blocks? If you mob them (10 wide 3 deep) Up to 5 ranks for high elves can attack 4 for regular spear based.

Spears and LSG are now fairly legitimate anvil units, I would say.

24-30-strong blocks will likely be the new norm.

Jin wrote:Spears and LSG are now fairly legitimate anvil units, I would say.

24-30-strong blocks will likely be the new norm.

Will have to wait for the errta but I think Phoenix Guard will be even more so.

Definitely, although now, they can actually dish out quite a bit of damage. I would say PG can be used a lot more aggressively now with the ASF bonuses.

PG might be able to dish out some hurt but at 400pts for 25 of em they are still ridiculously expensive.

With the rumor that flanked units lose their stubborn bonuses i'm not sure just how well high elves will do. Swordmasters will be sorely needed to grind down big units till they break but those same swordmasters will take a beating from the swings back.

Gonna be an interesting game for the elves again. I kinda like it.

I did up some thoery hammer whilst at a lecture today.

30 Phoenix guard, 10 wide with a full command is the best I could come up with from the infantry units.

The 4+ ward save is just fantastic for survivability.

The other specials just fall like wheat with T3 and heavy armour.

Also a Level 4 arch mage with The staff sorcery (+1 dispel) for +4 to cast and +6 to dispel is going to be great.

30 Phoenix guard, 10 wide with a full command is the best I could come up with from the infantry units.

I'm sorry but unless the points values for armies are increasing from 2000 to something like 3000 or 4000, I can't see why people insist on massive units like that.

Your army will have two or three of those massive units in it, plus a few heroes and warmachines. How many enemy units did you plan to kill with them during 6 turns? What happens when the enemy has 3 mortars and 2 rocket batteries? Their accuracy increased by a ton and partials seem to be gone (the last time I checked the stone thrower rules there is no mention at all of partial hits, just that everyone wholly or partially hit is hit).

The way I see it, High Elves should be running three units of 15 Lothern Seaguard as core. They are reasonably useful units and just about cover the 25% mandatory restriction in 2250 or 2500p games.

As for other units, I was thinking of obviously a Dragon or two, two RBTs, and either a ton of chariots or a mix of chariots and Dragon Princesses.

Remember that ASF units that have initiative higher than their opponent get to re-roll hits every turn.

Also a Level 4 arch mage with The staff sorcery (+1 dispel) for +4 to cast and +6 to dispel is going to be great

The time of lord level casters is over. A lot of level 2 wizards can either get the full 6 spells of any lore or atleast 3 spells, which is enough to get a ton of useful stuff since the signature spell is usually very good (like the lore of fire). Now the price difference between the lord and a cheapo like this can be as big as 300 points, and all the lord does better is +2 more to cast and two more spells. Additionally, when his head blows up to a miscast, you're losing an expensive model but also your general. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Just like I won't recommend Greater Daemons who intend to cast spells. Magic is totally fickle, as you can get as low as 2 power dice on a critical turn your Kairos Fateweaver was supposed to do something important. It's better to just have a cheap wizard with a few spells and when you randomise 12 dice just go nuts with 6 dice on 2 big spells (average casting power 23 per spell and a very high chance of irresistible force, all done by a guy who costs 100-125 points).

Lord level casters still work, Therion, but you're going to see them (on average) throwing much less dice out unless you're trying for an IF / MC. Until many army-specific lores are swapped, they'll have an edge in that a good number of their spells will be simple enough to cast on a 3+ which means either single-die spam (not really caring for the chance of no more casting that turn) or two dice (meaning only a 1-in-36 chance of spell failure with another 1-in-36 being an IF / Miscast).

What you say on the big spells holds, however: You're going to watch people take low-level casters for them now, as - while less likely to go off barring an IF - they're risking much less in the process (100pt Hero v 250pt Lord).

Like I noted, it's not only a question of deadly miscasts posing a thread to an expensive caster, it's also the fact that spending on a lord level wizard means you should be able expect some value out of that investment. We cannot safely say anything anymore about the short term casting power of any wizard because of power dice randomisation. We can count averages but six magic phases is such a short period you might go the whole game with little or no power dice. What we know is that when snake eyes is rolled a 100 point investment into a level 1 wizard will cast as many spells as a 260 point investment into a level 4, and both will have nearly an equal chance of getting a huge spell like 3D6 Fireball or Purple Sun off once they do randomise some dice to play around with.

On top of that, many magic items intended for level 4 wizards are now completely overcosted.

Personally, I'll go for a fighty lord and a cheap level 1/2 wizard every time. Lizardmen should naturally go for a Slann because of his extra abilities, and there might be some other exception too. In the case of High Elves as discussed in the thread though, I've got to argue for the Star Dragon Prince 100% of games and tournaments.

another thing to consider

you could get 3 level 2 wizards for the same or just a little more then the lvl 4 wizard. and with those 3 lvl 2's you can get every spell in the lore.

All the extra points really pay for are an additional +2 to casting values....

Actually thats pretty huge lol.

Plus remember you are getting +4 to dispel. If your opponent only has level 1's and 2's, then that +4 is going to be huge. Not to mention against bound spells.

Kill and I got into this over on the other thread about the banner of Sorc... but I Think it bears repeating here.

I don't have the book, and haven't paged through it, but from what I've heard, I simply can't imagine people taking more than 1 level 4 or 2 lvl 2's in anything but the most extreme of circumstances any more.

Also: I had heard that you get the +lvl to cast, but you don't get the +lvl to dispell. Can anyone confirm/deny?
It actually makes quite the difference. I'd consider spending the extra 100 or so points just to have another +2 to my dispell.

Finally: Speculation that 3 lvl 2's would get you all of the spells from the lore...
A) I thought every lore had 7 spells now and
B) The way spells are selected (according to things I've heard) is still the same. Which means roll a die, decide whether you want it, roll another die, if you get doubles you either roll again, or it becomes a 1. Everyone can have multiples of the 1 spell. The odds fall dramatically that you will have the whole range of spells with that system. (I wanna say that you'll only have the whole range around 55% of the time in that system)

It seems you haven't read the book properly since you're wrong on multiple parts:

1. You get the +lvl to dispel also.
2. The way spells are selected is that if a wizard randomises a spell that someone already has, he gets to select any spell he likes from the lore that noone yet has, instead of rolling again.

Therion wrote:It seems you haven't read the book properly since you're wrong on multiple parts:

1. You get the +lvl to dispel also.
2. The way spells are selected is that if a wizard randomises a spell that someone already has, he gets to select any spell he likes from the lore that noone yet has, instead of rolling again.

2nd line of my last post. Yep.. I haven't read the book properly.

What if you roll a 1? Or do all lores have 0 level spells?

Im kinda flipping between the archmage vs fighty lord argument.
On the one hand Theron is right. The archmage has the potential to be great and do a huge amount of damage but it also has the potential to fail miserably, moreso than in previous versions. His biggest asset is the ability to thin down large ranked units with spells such as flames of the phoenix. He also provides the amazing 5 to dispel.
The fighty lord is only vaguely better than white lion or sword master unit champions. His only real asset is riding the star dragon. However, this makes him bate for cannons who now have easier LOS and hit both the rider and the dragon at once (or so I have heard). The dragon also has the disadvantage in that it cannot take units on alone. It needs ranked units to support it.

I think the choice will come down to what armies you regularly face. Lizards,chaos, deamons - take the dragon. Dwarfs, empire, other high elves - take the archmage.


Core - Seaguard are the way to go. I am going to start with 25 man blocks as they fight in 4 ranks so there are some casualties to lose before I lose any attacks. Add to this the fact that the stand and shoot with 19 shots is actually something to fear and you have a good core unit to base the army around.

Special - All still have their purpose minus the pointless skirmishers.

Rare - Still great though eagles arent as cool as they use to be. Will have to read the rules in detail to see just how much they lost.

My army will look something like this to start
points are very rough

Archmage - 300 pts
BSB - 200 pts (probabally less)

2x25 seaguard - 650
25 phoenix guard - 350
14 sword masters - 240
10 dragon princes - 300
Full cmd in all
3x bolt throwers - 300
2x eagle - 100

This gives me a lot of offensive power to thin down the oncoming army along with a few units who can destroy harder units such as chaos warriors and a few units that can hang around for a long time. I might need to throw in some white lions or chariots to deal with the really heavily armored units as i am not sure just how well this will deal with multiple knight units. Fortunately these armies will become less common in 8th.

The army is kind of small for my tastes and that may have to change as I like more units running around.

Ragnar4 wrote:
What if you roll a 1? Or do all lores have 0 level spells?

All the book lores have a Signature spell(0th spell).

High elves got a buff and a hit from this book (just finished reading it).

They keep ASF and now it lets them reroll hits if their I is higher!

However they relied on that ASF to keep their poorly armored low T guys from getting hit back!

I think this just further adds to the you will need to take big blocks of infantry now!