Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

John Prins wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:

John Prins wrote:
I'm not touching it until it's out of Early Access.

So, you're not touching it ever ?

Not sure if you're implying games never make it out of EA, or that just this one won't.(...)

The latter.
It's been on early release for what, 2 years now ?

It depends how you define it. Some companies do release Alpha versions for public testing, but in limited numbers. I don't consider that to be Early Access in the manner that Steam does it (where they sell unlimited numbers of copies).

That said, there have been games that sit in Early Access for that long and get finished. I'll use one example, Planet Explorers. The Kickstarter for that was funded in April 21, 2013, the Steam Keys were released in March 12, 2014, and the 1.0 version of the game in November 9, 2016. So including pre-Kickstarter work on it, it probably took Pathea 4+ years to make the game!

So, there's a debate on Initiative stats going on in the PodBay (DP9 forums) (http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17835). Since several of you are very passionate about the game, I was hoping to get your opinion; both on fluff, and on rules. (even if it doesn't match my views).

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, there's a debate on Initiative stats going on in the PodBay (DP9 forums) (http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17835). Since several of you are very passionate about the game, I was hoping to get your opinion; both on fluff, and on rules. (even if it doesn't match my views).

I can¡'t easily access the pod forums, so could you summarize what's being talked about?...

Eh, it's just another post illustrating the poor overall design of North vs. South and how easy it is for the South to get initiative units. The discussion then quickly moved to ECM, where again, it has been revealed that the South has far more ECM units, but the North has better quality ECM units.

Sprinkle in the "Git Good, scrub!" posts, and the "This is a perfect game, you are just playing it wrong!" and you'll get the gist of the now 5 page thread that is basically being dominated by two posters going back and forth.

ECM and Initiative was a pain in the butt and seemed to go through several incarnations during play test, and this version still isn't the best. It feels like "We're running out of time, just throw something in!"

Generalist vs. specialist is an interesting gameplay dynamic but I have yet to see it actually work in any miniatures game.

Tamwolf pretty much summed up the bulk of it.

I was mostly interested in opinions on command vehicles.

What does the north typically use. Opinions on front-line commanders (specifically those who don't lead small units, such as colonels on up). Also, how rare/wide spread is the spearhead hunter?

Also, what you missed. 11Bullets childishly calling everyone children.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Tamwolf pretty much summed up the bulk of it.

What a lovely picture.

I was mostly interested in opinions on command vehicles.

What does the north typically use. Opinions on front-line commanders (specifically those who don't lead small units, such as colonels on up). Also, how rare/wide spread is the spearhead hunter?

Well... usually speaking, colonels and up just plain don't command from the frontline, because that usually leads to them being dead and all . More often than not the get cozy inside some kind of mobile HQ or base, and leave the hands-on command to lesser brass. They usually are way more effective that way, too

That said, as to the Spearhead Hunter, canon-wise it started as a field variant requested by the Nova RedRiders' CO:

Northco's Spearhead Hunter is an attempt to use the Hunter frame as a versatile command center. This variant was first fielded by Colonel Keeth Bradlee, regimental commander of the 74th Heavy Gear Regiment (Nova Redriders), and is typical of many regimental command Gears. Because regimental commanders are not expected to fight on the frontlines but may need the mobility of a Gear, the Spearhead was derived from the simple and tested Hunter chassis rather than the more valuable Jaguar chassis. While the basic structure of the Hunter remains the same, the computer and communications system have been radically modified. First fielded in TN 1930, the Spearhead uses an Abaline Tactical Systems TOC-15 tactical coordination computer -a less powerful version of the TOC-27 employed in the Command Mammoth strider. A satellite uplink dish has also been added to ensure an ease of communication with dispersed forces. The two systems allow for easy interface with a regimental Tactical Operations Center as well, although the integration of the TOC-15 display hardware with the IHADS system has cramped the head module with electronics and blocked the Gears vision slits. Weaponry has been changed to a single M225 autocannon, supplemented by automated anti-personnel charges to prevent close assault.

The Spearhead Hunter remains in very limited distribution. The TOC-15 system has proven effective, but the sensitive electronics do make the Spearhead vulnerable to attack. The Northern Guard also does not wish to encourage its colonels to hop in a Gear and lead from the field where they can easily get killed. Northco and Abaline hope to use the example of the Spearheadto develop a new generation of command Gears once the Jaguar has been firmly established as the center of Northern forces, but for now the Spearhead remains mostly an interesting experiment fielded only by the Nova Redriders and a few other regiments. For the time being commanders believe that regiment-level mobile command is better done from a dedicated vehicle such as the CV-3 Murdock which allows the commander to travel with close advisors.

Also, what you missed. 11Bullets childishly calling everyone children.

Well then, I see I'm not missing much.

Ok, thanks. I really appreciate the info.

 Mmmpi wrote:

What does the north typically use. Opinions on front-line commanders (specifically those who don't lead small units, such as colonels on up). Also, how rare/wide spread is the spearhead hunter?

What the fluff says about the Spearhead Hunter isn't of primary significant to the wargame, IMO. The fluff comes from the RPG, which is a completely different beast than a wargame. Albertorius handled the fluff answer (i.e. you shouldn't see them) but I'd argue you have to step back and ask if there's a role for them that makes sense on the table. I'd argue that mechanically, a leadership boosting model is a good thing from an abstract perspective. The implementation may be botched, sure - but it's an iconic model and giving it a good niche helps the wargame more than it hurts it. The question "how rare is the Spearhead" should be largely a mechanical one that's influenced by the fluff, rather than dictated by the fluff.

This is not to come down on one side or the other of the debate happening on the DP9 forum. Initiative buffs and sinks are a hard thing to get right.

Yeah, the last the actual topic in that thread was addressed, it was:
1. Initiative isn't broken LTP noob.
2. Initiative can be abused if built for. (aka picking models to give solid buffs for it, and an army list to take advantage of it),
and
3. No idea, but it's PR's specialty, so to buff someone else's Initiative is a stealth nerf to PR, and so is changing the initiative rules. No answer given on what isn't PR's specialty, outside of it's lack of advanced and guided weapons.

Personally I was (and am) a supporter of #2, mainly because the armies that can build for it don't have to do much to get it, and several armies (some who's fluff suggests that it would actually fit for them), don't get it. The fact that it doesn't have a huge points cost to get for the armies that take advantage of it, and that it doesn't seem to require much of a change in an army's build. BT/PR just need a squad upgrade for example.

I have fallen to the charms of the old RAFM era Gears. Picture and text on my blog here:

http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/further-size-comparisons.html

Now I need some old Jagers and Mambas.

 IceRaptor wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

What does the north typically use. Opinions on front-line commanders (specifically those who don't lead small units, such as colonels on up). Also, how rare/wide spread is the spearhead hunter?

What the fluff says about the Spearhead Hunter isn't of primary significant to the wargame, IMO. The fluff comes from the RPG, which is a completely different beast than a wargame. Albertorius handled the fluff answer (i.e. you shouldn't see them) but I'd argue you have to step back and ask if there's a role for them that makes sense on the table. I'd argue that mechanically, a leadership boosting model is a good thing from an abstract perspective. The implementation may be botched, sure - but it's an iconic model and giving it a good niche helps the wargame more than it hurts it. The question "how rare is the Spearhead" should be largely a mechanical one that's influenced by the fluff, rather than dictated by the fluff.

This is not to come down on one side or the other of the debate happening on the DP9 forum. Initiative buffs and sinks are a hard thing to get right.

I do like the Spearhead quite a bit myself, TBH, but here I'd take the middle road of appeasing both fluff and game concerns. The fluff already states that "Northco and Abaline hope to use the example of the Spearhead to develop a new generation of command Gears once the Jaguar has been firmly established as the center of Northern forces", so IMHO what you should do is use that and the fact that the wargame was advanced already the timeline to create a new "Spearhead" type of variant probably reserved for Hunters and Jaguars (and the new models with the same roles) to be used as a command Gear swap. That way you're growing the setting organically and there's no need for the new Gear to be piloted by COs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paint it Pink wrote:
I have fallen to the charms of the old RAFM era Gears. Picture and text on my blog here:

http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/further-size-comparisons.html

Now I need some old Jagers and Mambas.

RAFM Gears can be goofy at times, but at the same time, so very tasty ^_^

From that Panther website: Wow that new Visigoth is quite large. Not sure I'm super opposed, as I think it was always meant to be a rather large tank, larger than a standard MBT. It looks like they almost have gotten it to not look like a giant flat square rectangle. Though the Abrams still looks better -- I'd be tempted to just stick the futuristic turret of the Visigoth on that smaller Abrams and call it a day.

Oh, and the videogame made it up on Steam Early Access. Still looks like amateur hour, and looks to play more like Battletech than Heavy Gear.

As for rules, I haven't played any of the new rules, not surprised that PR is still overpowered. Though they weren't all that bad in the previous ruleset until the last update that gave them everything and the kitchen sink.

yeah, now it looks like they just don't have much access to advanced and guided weapons.

Still have generally available Initiative buffs, easy army wide ECM, and what not.

 Mmmpi wrote:
yeah, now it looks like they just don't have much access to advanced and guided weapons.

Which is kind of hilarious, being the biggest arms manufacturer in the planet and all xd.

Maybe they just REALLY suck at their jobs.

"Hey let's make some new guns"

two months later...

"ok, we made a whole army of gears, just like the ones everyone else makes...but with ECM and slower!"

"ok, what about the cool new guns?"

"You mean the light auto-cannons?"

"No, I mean the laser cannons and rail guns"

two months later

"Well we did what you asked, we made a strider that has field guns."

"What about rail guns?"

"why would you want a gun that shoots trains?"

And another Heavy Gear post on my blog with more to come as I clean-up and assemble my eBay RAFM Gears I acquired.

http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/rafm-hunter-commando.html

Oh, hey, I've just got a mail from the Pod via the HG Kickstarter... because I guess they would still want me to buy their stuff even if they don't want to have to hear me, seeing as it's a Jovian Wars KS promotional link.

And what is Jovian Wars? From the mail, it seems like it's an attempt to give new life to their Jovian Chronicles IP with a new space fleet game.

"Yeah, Albertorius, but what is Jovian Chronicles?"

Good question. Back in the day, Jovian Chronicles started as a setting for the Mekton RPG, and was mainly a... well, a Gundam ripoff, if we're being completely honest. A very cool and interesting ripoff, mind. Further down the line it was rereleased using the in-house Silhouette setting, and had a great run of sourcebooks, and it developed into a fairly hard sci-fi inter solar system setting, with lots of political tensions, and giant space robots (what? Gundams are awesome. Shut up). Somewhere during that time there apparently was a change of developers and JC started to be all about the ships and the giant robots got mainly sidelined, though.


It also had a very decent fleet combat game with campaign elements called Lightning Strike, which was a pretty cool game for the time.

And now they're releasing Jovian Wars, apparently, because there's so very few space fleet battle games already released that it's the obvious move.



The $88 CAD level gets you double the number of ships of the above pic, but no fighters/gundams (those are add-ons). Also, the ships' scale are about 1,5 times bigger than the older resin models, so if you have old ones (like me) you're kind of boned.

Having already SW Armada, XWing, FSA and some Yamato ships coming my way for about $3 each, I can't say I'm overly interested in it, and seeing as the Mr. Dubois is at the helm, I'll give it a wide pass, thank you.

That said, at first I was interested on the fighter/Gundam bases to use with the other games... right until I saw the prices, that is. I'll stick with the Armada bases, I think.

EDIT: Ohhhh, for half the amount of the pledge I could get a starter DFC fleet!

I must admit I am intrigued by that game...

You mentioned one of the reasons I'm not joining in. I already play Star Wars Armada, Fire Storm Armada, Dystopian Wars, and have two Battle Fleet Gothic fleets sitting in a bin. That and the difficulty I have actually getting in a game of HGB makes me want to concentrate on just that for PodBay IPs.

If it was a "skirmish" game using the old 1:500-scale exo-armours and fighters, I'd be all over this. Once upon a time, I tried to use the RPG rules as a set of miniatures rules; fun, but too fiddly. The spaceships just aren't as interesting.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If it was a "skirmish" game using the old 1:500-scale exo-armours and fighters, I'd be all over this. Once upon a time, I tried to use the RPG rules as a set of miniatures rules; fun, but too fiddly. The spaceships just aren't as interesting.

Agreed completely. Of course, I'd kill for a Flightpath system Gundam or Macross game, so it was kind of a given in my case.

Well, maybe not kill. But maim? Sure.

Not sure I'd want anything like that - I want to use 5 - 10 vehicles per side, and something Flightpath-esque gets a little fiddly above three or four IMO.

I even converted a Wyvern into one of the Martian Exo-armours at one point. I wonder what I did with all of those ...

Quite frankly, I don't "get" Jovian Wars. The giant robot models are tiny, and the ships aren't anything special. As a spaceship game, it's not replacing BFG, for which I already have multiple, large, playable, painted fleets.

Al's notion of a Flightpath Gundam game would be awesome. 15m Gundam scaled down to a 30mm miniature, so 1/500 scale - about half Gashapon. A mobile armor like the Neue Ziel would be about 6" tall... Dendrobium would be about 5" wide. Totally playable! Do want!

You're noticing the lack of niche. It seems less like "we see a spot for a fleet game", and more of "How can we profit on a fleet game."

Still, they made their goal, plus a few unlocks so yay?

Had a few friends interested. I told them I'd go in only if they:
A: went in
and
B: covered my costs until they could prove they were into it enough to show enthusiasm (aka more than one game a year), at which point I would reimburse them. This is the same group that said "YAY Heavy Gear!", and "YAY Infinity" of which they played the latter twice. Christmas 2015, leaving me with a barely touched infinity army. Thankfully I found others to play HG against, and have one of my FLGS owners interested (on other hates it, one doesn't like Scifi games, and the last is an idiot). Same store btw.

They didn't see my reasoning on point B. even though I said they would be the official owners until I paid them back.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Still, they made their goal, plus a few unlocks so yay?

Their goal was $6,800 USD, and are still under $10k USD after several days of funding. Not sure the bar could have been set much lower.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Still, they made their goal, plus a few unlocks so yay?

Their goal was $6,800 USD, and are still under $10k USD after several days of funding. Not sure the bar could have been set much lower.

Well, AFAIK they are trying to fund a small number of simple resin and metal mould, so it's not really like they need all that much money.

...or any money at all, given that they already have all the needed capabilities for it, but getting the money beforehand sure is a nice perk.

I mean, you see "Jovian Wars, our giant robo fleet scale game", and you might think of BFG, DFC or FSA, but in truth the current KS is to fund mould for... what, 6-8 resin ships? and they already do resin and metal casting in-house, so In perspective, I'd say they are asking for the right amount, if they have to ask for any amount at all.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Still, they made their goal, plus a few unlocks so yay?

Their goal was $6,800 USD, and are still under $10k USD after several days of funding. Not sure the bar could have been set much lower.

While I agree that it was a lower goal, they did hit it rather quickly, and with just a few people. I honestly think there's a good chance at pragmatism behind this one. Why ask for more than they need? It would be an unnecessary risk, especially when there's already an incentive system in place for exceeding the base goal. Besides, even if they don't need the money, or shouldn't need the money, in theory doing this does help spread the brand, even if just a little, and gives people something to be excited for.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Still, they made their goal, plus a few unlocks so yay?

Their goal was $6,800 USD, and are still under $10k USD after several days of funding. Not sure the bar could have been set much lower.

While I agree that it was a lower goal, they did hit it rather quickly, and with just a few people. I honestly think there's a good chance at pragmatism behind this one. Why ask for more than they need? It would be an unnecessary risk, especially when there's already an incentive system in place for exceeding the base goal. Besides, even if they don't need the money, or shouldn't need the money, in theory doing this does help spread the brand, even if just a little, and gives people something to be excited for.

Yeah, in this case and with the goal they have I don't feel there is an actual need to ask for more than they already have. They already have the means to produce resin and metal castings, they already have done some of the prototypes... there's not much more that costs actual money left to do, other than actual production, and they do that regularly for the rest of their stock, so... (plus, producing in-house, they don't actually need to overproduce or anything like that, so the production and warehousing costs are nelligible).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Quite frankly, I don't "get" Jovian Wars. The giant robot models are tiny, and the ships aren't anything special. As a spaceship game, it's not replacing BFG, for which I already have multiple, large, playable, painted fleets.

Al's notion of a Flightpath Gundam game would be awesome. 15m Gundam scaled down to a 30mm miniature, so 1/500 scale - about half Gashapon. A mobile armor like the Neue Ziel would be about 6" tall... Dendrobium would be about 5" wide. Totally playable! Do want!

The game was a lot more interesting back in 2001 when the only options for space games were BFG, Starfleet Battles, Babylon 5 Wars and Full Thrust. All of those except BFG were very niche and none of them were anime based in a time when anime was only starting to really hit the mainstream. In 2017 there's just so many more options for space games and anime-influenced games, but JC has remained a favorite and their 1/500 figures remain extremely well done even for today, although very fiddly. I love the 17mm Exos, but also the 30MM ones and the larger resin Tau Crisis-suit sized ones that were out some years ago, I'm the type of idiot to buy all of them with nobody to play against

And speaking of 30MM gundams and buying a bunch of things with nothing to use them for, have you seen the 1/400 gashapon gundams that Bandai released under the "Gundam Collections" title? They were random packs, unfortunately, and getting harder to find now, but I bought a crapload of them to play Gundam SEED battles with. They come prepainted in gashapon style vinyl, but they look great with a basic wash, unfortunately I only have the one pic of mine, but there's quite a lot around the internet. It's getting harder to find the stuff for it, but it's still out there and there were a few ebay sellers doing singles and you can still find cases every now and again, there was something like 12 sets plus another 8 NEO sets



They even did some larger sets including a Dendrobium vs Nue Ziel set and it is indeed about 5" wide!



It's pretty expensive now since it's OOP, but there's now a 1/550 scale kit for both the Nue Ziel and Dendrobium that run about $20~$30 if you don't mind the small shift in scale