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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

MANY THANKS TO YAKFACE FOR THE FORMAT FOR THE POLL



The 'Disembarking' rules (pg 67) say: "When the unit disembarks, each model is deployed within 2" of one of the vehicle's access points, and within unit coherency. Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy."

and:

"If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an 'emergency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn."




QUESTION: If a unit performs an 'emergency disembarkation', does the unit have to maintain unit coherency when doing so?



OPTION A. Yes, the unit is still bound by the restrictions of disembarking and must deploy within 2" of the hull and in coherency.



OPTION B. No, the unit can deploy "anywhere within 2" of the vehicles hull", which includes out of coherency and within 1" of enemy models.



OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.


---------------------
Had this situation occur this morning while playing and wonder how you folks handle it.

Before this poll, I never realized that there's one weakness with this poll format: If the situation's never come up or been in dispute before, by Poll As Written there's no way to answer. Because surely the question isn't supposed to be "I didn't check what the rules say, but I could have sworn it said ..."

I haven't actually played a game in which emergency disembark has been used.

In my opinion, the rules for Emergency Disembarkation do not specifically override the general rules that models have to be placed within coherency distance of other models from their unit. I believe that the specification of "anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull" phrase merely removes the normal requirement to be within 2" of an access point.

I chose B because I assume they would have written it in like they did on regular embarking if they wanted you to stay in coherency.

Yeah it's never come up for me either but I'd go with B too for the same reason as Nightwatch.

Went with c, since we do a variant.

Locally we have played it with the unit having to deploy within 2" of the hull, allowed the unit to NOT be in coherency but NOT allow deployment within 1" of an enemy unit.

There was a great deal of debate as to whether or not emergency deployment should count as movement for the coherency rules.

There was also some debate as to whether or not the models could be placed within 1" of an enemy model.

The general thoughts were that coherency can be broken at times by things such as tank shock, so coherency was a less "firm" rule.

While it was considered that the only way to get to within 1" of an enemy model was during an assault.



Its not an entirely solid set of rationalizaions but it seemed to be the easiest for people to grasp. And since the real world feel of "yes they will scramble out of a burning vehicle even if they have to split up" seems natural, while the real world feel of "but if they pop out within 1" of an enemy model they will just get ganked" also seemed to make sense to people.

It would be very easy to see following the coherency guidelines as well, so option A would probably be an easy enough sell locally. Option B locally would be the hardest to go with, as the 1" rule seems very firmly eatablished in people's minds.



Sliggoth

I would say the unit may be deployed out of coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. Coherency may be broken in game through various means, but the 1" rule is quite specific.

Not saying I'm right, but that's how I would play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized I'm in the same boat as Sliggoth.

Lukus83 wrote:I would say the unit may be deployed out of coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. Coherency may be broken in game through various means, but the 1" rule is quite specific.

Not saying I'm right, but that's how I would play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized I'm in the same boat as Sliggoth.

We play it this way. It's quite hard to disembark within 2" of a vehicle hull and NOT be in coherency. It's never occurred in our lfgs.

Saldiven wrote:In my opinion, the rules for Emergency Disembarkation do not specifically override the general rules that models have to be placed within coherency distance of other models from their unit. I believe that the specification of "anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull" phrase merely removes the normal requirement to be within 2" of an access point.

This my good sir..

B.
I'm fairly sure they wanted it to simply overwrite the 2" access point restriction, but the context isn't really concrete and they used a different reserved word for the action (one that they'd used previously with all the caveats to build 'disembarking').

Disembarking: "Deploy", with 2" from access point + coherency + 1" from enemy restrictions
Emergency: "Deploy", with 2" from hull restriction... and no direct reference linking it to normal disembarking restrictions (no 'instead, deployed within 2" of the hull' or anything)

I'll play by what they wrote, which is B, but entirely understand the A stance and would agree to it if asked pre-game.

Wow, a thread that I started that didn't self implode in 3 posts.

I am impressed.

Now that the thread is going well, I'll point out that we played it as Option B, and I think it is Option B as well, for the reasons Gorkamorka outlines.

Just a note I want to point out is that nowhere in the rulebook does it say that all units must maintain coherency at all times no matter what extraordinary conditions may come up. Furthermore, there are even provisions which state: "If the unit is out of coherency because of XXXX condition, they must be moved back into coherency in the next movement phase". I can provide citations if needed, just not ATM.

Lukus83 wrote:I would say the unit may be deployed out of coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. Coherency may be broken in game through various means, but the 1" rule is quite specific.

Not saying I'm right, but that's how I would play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized I'm in the same boat as Sliggoth.

Sing me in for a ticket too

well since they cant move or do anything on their next turn doesnt that mean they CANT get into coherency? and therefore the units out of coherency would be destroyed?

shade1986 wrote:well since they cant move or do anything on their next turn doesnt that mean they CANT get into coherency? and therefore the units out of coherency would be destroyed?

It doesn't say they can't do anything their next turn. It says they can't do anything for the rest of the turn, defined on page 9 as player turn which means if their transport was destroyed in their opponents turn they're fine to act as long as they pass their pinning test, and survive.

Also, it doesn't say anywhere that a unit which can't move into coherency is destroyed. To say so is to assume something which just isn't true. For example, if a unit gets pinned, but loses casualties such that it loses coherency, there's nothing saying that the unit either has permission to move back into coherency, nor is there any rule that says they die.

Voted A myself, for three reasons.

1) Any time you disembark or are on the table, you must be in coherency to begin, you can later be forced out of coherency.

2) Taken in case with number 1; Being unable to deploy properly (Not in coherency) causes the disembarkation to be impossible, hence the unit can't disembark and dies a fiery death.

3) When performing an emergency disembarkation, you may deploy even on the hull of the vehicle as it is now difficult dangerous terrain, not impassable. This makes it almost impossible to lose the unit, unless it is a large unit in a relatively small transport.

I understand how you can end up at option B, but you should be able to deploy in coherency while landing on top of the vehicle on the emergency disembarkation. Just because you don't want to land on difficult dangerous terrain, doesn't mean you can try to break the rules to avoid it.

Option B. This is the same phrasing as Deep Strike ("anywhere"), and has the same result; anywhere means anywhere, overriding other restrictions.

Gwar! wrote:Wow, a thread that I started that didn't self implode in 3 posts.

I am impressed.

Sad isn't it?

Lone Dragoon wrote:
1) Any time you disembark or are on the table, you must be in coherency to begin, you can later be forced out of coherency.

2) Taken in case with number 1; Being unable to deploy properly (Not in coherency) causes the disembarkation to be impossible, hence the unit can't disembark and dies a fiery death.

3) When performing an emergency disembarkation, you may deploy even on the hull of the vehicle as it is now difficult dangerous terrain, not impassable. This makes it almost impossible to lose the unit, unless it is a large unit in a relatively small transport.

I understand how you can end up at option B, but you should be able to deploy in coherency while landing on top of the vehicle on the emergency disembarkation. Just because you don't want to land on difficult dangerous terrain, doesn't mean you can try to break the rules to avoid it.

Uh... you cannot deploy on top of a vehicle during an emergency disembarkation. It's impassable.
Emergency disembarking does not suddenly make it difficult dangerous terrain.
Are you talking about the wrecked result? Because you can't deploy on top of the vehicle there either.

Can you also provide a page reference for the coherency requirements you're referencing in 1? A quick look isn't finding any coherency requirement linked to emergency disembarking.

Wow, a thread that I started that didn't self implode in 3 posts.

I am impressed.

Well I look at this situation the same way I look winged hive tyrants deep striking... consider the threat imploded!

But back on topic I have never had this situation come up in game, but I would probably go with B because it seems like they are more worried about getting out of the vehicle then staying in formation

Gorkamorka wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:
1) Any time you disembark or are on the table, you must be in coherency to begin, you can later be forced out of coherency.

2) Taken in case with number 1; Being unable to deploy properly (Not in coherency) causes the disembarkation to be impossible, hence the unit can't disembark and dies a fiery death.

3) When performing an emergency disembarkation, you may deploy even on the hull of the vehicle as it is now difficult dangerous terrain, not impassable. This makes it almost impossible to lose the unit, unless it is a large unit in a relatively small transport.

I understand how you can end up at option B, but you should be able to deploy in coherency while landing on top of the vehicle on the emergency disembarkation. Just because you don't want to land on difficult dangerous terrain, doesn't mean you can try to break the rules to avoid it.

Uh... you cannot deploy on top of a vehicle during an emergency disembarkation. It's impassable.
Emergency disembarking does not suddenly make it difficult dangerous terrain.
Are you talking about the wrecked result? Because you can't deploy on top of the vehicle there either.

Can you also provide a page reference for the coherency requirements you're referencing in 1? A quick look isn't finding any coherency requirement linked to emergency disembarking.

Gorkamorka is right, you can't disembark on the wrecked vehicle because the rules state it becomes wrecked after all passangers have disembarked, (see BGB p67 effects of damage) and thus its still impassable (ie a friendly model) when they dissembark.

Option B.
It's a general misconception that unit always must maintain coherency and stay outside of 1" from enemy models.
You must only do this when the rules specifically tells you so.

The same is true for passengers surviving a Destroyed – explodes! result. They may both be within 1" of enemy models and not in coherency as long as they follow the placement rules of the Destroyed – explodes! result.

I disagree with Webbe. You are only alllowed to be within 1" of enemy models when making an assault move (goes to check rulebook).

Hmm the option B side is making more and more sence.
Does that mean the only way to destroy the passangers is to have no room available for all of them within 2" of the vehicle, when for example its surrounded by impassable terrain and enemies/friendlys (both count as impassable in this case) in a way that would make it so.

@Webbe. I think it's the other way around. You have to maintain coherency and obey the 1" rule unless circumstances allow you to do otherwise.

Lukus83 wrote:@Webbe. I think it's the other way around. You have to maintain coherency and obey the 1" rule unless circumstances allow you to do otherwise.

No, you must obey the 1" rule when the 1" rule applies.
It notably applies in two specific situations:
Movement, and normal disembarking. It is never invoked by the emergency disembarking rules.

After seeing the clause about vehicles not counting as wrecked until after everyone disembarks, I admit I was wrong on that front.

Gorkamorka wrote:
Can you also provide a page reference for the coherency requirements you're referencing in 1? A quick look isn't finding any coherency requirement linked to emergency disembarking.

I interpret it as follows; under disembarking it says the unit must be in coherency. Since an emergency disembark is a type of disembark, in my mind at least, it follows that all the rules for disembark should be followed. Except the 2" from an access point because it specifically states that one may be ignored for two inches from the hull. It's all in how we interpret the rule, and as Gwar! said, not what the RAW says.

just out of curiosity what DOES raw say?

Lone Dragoon wrote:Voted A myself, for three reasons.

1) Any time you disembark or are on the table, you must be in coherency to begin, you can later be forced out of coherency.

2) Taken in case with number 1; Being unable to deploy properly (Not in coherency) causes the disembarkation to be impossible, hence the unit can't disembark and dies a fiery death.

3) When performing an emergency disembarkation, you may deploy even on the hull of the vehicle as it is now difficult dangerous terrain, not impassable. This makes it almost impossible to lose the unit, unless it is a large unit in a relatively small transport.

I understand how you can end up at option B, but you should be able to deploy in coherency while landing on top of the vehicle on the emergency disembarkation. Just because you don't want to land on difficult dangerous terrain, doesn't mean you can try to break the rules to avoid it.

Only the models not able to Emergency Disembark are destroyed. IE, if 3 out of five can make it out outside of 1" away from the enemy, the other 2 MODELS die. Not the whole unit.

Edit: That was directed @ #2. Source: Pg 67, Second Column, "Destroyed - Wrecked", "The Passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any MODELS that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shade1986 wrote:just out of curiosity what DOES raw say?

There is no Emergency Disembark column, but Under the transport vehicle - disembark section, about half way down gives the specific rules for Emergency disembark.

Source: Pg 67, First column, "Disembark" , "If any models cannot disembark because of enemies of because the would und up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform and 'emergency disembarkation; - the models are deployed anywhere within2" of the vehicles hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

Never really comes up, but I play a variant of option B (voted C).

Since the sentence "Models cannot disembark within 1" of an enemy." is separate from the rest of the paragraph, we play that it applies to both emergency and normal disembarkation.

However, you may emergency disembark out of coherency.