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Played an apoc game recently and I'm now in a position where I can buy a bio-titan so I'm curious. I discussed it with a couple of friends and we all agree warp field is now much better than it used to be and was told it should now be valued at about 1850 pts. A 600 point increase. Would other dakka members agree with this suggestion? I personally have no idea since I have never fielded one before...though I am impressed with it's stats.

Well consider how much more fire power it now takes to kill it and decide from there. I'll do the math if you give me toughness. I already know that it has a 2+ save.

T9, 10 wounds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem is it now has a 3++ instead of a 6++.

I know all of that, now to run the numbers.

Okay, for any Strength 5-7 weapons with AP 3+ the number of hits needed to kill it on average will be 360. If AP 2 or less it will take 180, it used to take 72 for a 2.5x increase in survivability.

S8 AP 3+ needs 180 hits, AP 2 or less 90, it used to take 36.

S9 AP 3+ needs 120 hits, AP 2 60, otherwise 24.

S10 AP 3+ needs 90 hits, AP 2 45, otherwise 18.

So if you want to do the average cost to field the new required number of weapons you might be on the right track.

Thanks for the numbers and for your input.

Appreciated.

No problem, numbers are what I tend to do around here.

Norade's math is spot on but I'd toss out that he neglected to include Str D weapons, which used to work well for killing it and now are also heavily neutered.

Its resistance to the best weapons in apocalypse has also increased by a factor of 4, which given they used to be the only quickish way to kill it is perhaps even more important.

Jack

The Warp Field does not function on a Hierophant, as the ability refers to "Zoanthropes gaining a 3++", but
sticking to the question, I think a 500 point would be adequate.

Valk

Valkyrie wrote:The Warp Field does not function on a Hierophant, as the ability refers to "Zoanthropes gaining a 3++", but
sticking to the question, I think a 500 point would be adequate.

Valk

By RAW neither does doom, but in apocalypse games rules are usual unbalanced and tweaked as people see fit.

Or you could just play with Hierophant with the old Warp Field, and leave the point cost.

Redemption wrote:Or you could just play with Hierophant with the old Warp Field, and leave the point cost.

This is what I'd go with, rules as intended. It seems to be the best way to balance things out, IMO

Well our gaming group prefers to use the updated rules. It's ok I think. I will try a test game at some point with the updated cost of 1850 and see if it's still overpowered. If it is I can just increase the cost again (although I think that 1850 is probably about right).

Luke, I would agree with using the old herophant rules for warp field especially after seeing the numbers posted by Norade - which basically make is seem like the model is unstoppable.

It would be easiest to use the old rules and original points cost- anyway, this seems like a reasonable option, maybe we can have another apoc game (dragon boat festival?) and test...once you buy it of course

I would suggest trying it at 2,000 unless you have found a better cost. I come to this number by assuming offense is worth 2/5ths of the model's cost, with offense being worth another 2/5ths and movement being worth 1/5th. Because it has 2.5x better defense against AP2 or better weapons I deemed that to be worth a 2.5x increase in points cost for 500 points worth of the model.

It may be arbitrary but it makes sense to my mind.

Haven't actually used it yet, but I think we could plan an apoc game in a couple of weeks. National holiday coming up so should be free to give it a test run.

The Hierophant does in fact NOT have a +3 inv. save as do the Zoanthropes. If you look in the nid codex they have Warp Feilds. The hierophant on the other hand has "Warp Feild Psychic Power." they are 2 different things, compleatly! And if you want to be a power hungry arms race apock head then im sorry to say but a hierophant with T9, 10 wounds +2, +3 inv. would be at LEAST 2500 points. But seeing as the Nid book is new and there has not been an apock rules update it follows the old rules (the apock rules) and not the new codex rules! sorry!

Ok jae4x4, you are a bit late to the party. We had an apoc game and got absolutely smashed by D weapons. Short story is that 1 warhound titan managed to knock out 2 bio-titans in 2 turns (with a little help from some lascannons). So yeah next game we are gonna try out the updated rules. Sorry!

And please check your spelling before posting.

Lukus83 wrote:Ok jae4x4, you are a bit late to the party. We had an apoc game and got absolutely smashed by D weapons. Short story is that 1 warhound titan managed to knock out 2 bio-titans in 2 turns (with a little help from some lascannons). So yeah next game we are gonna try out the updated rules. Sorry!

And please check your spelling before posting.

That was my issue with it, strength D weapons, are nasty to it. Hell, even something like 12 units of termicide dropping near it and dumping 36 melta shots into it could work. They hit around 24 times, wound 8 times, and normally that causes around 7 unsaved wounds on your massive beast. Toss in a few other pot shots and it goes down hard. Then again a pair of war hounds have issues as well, down the void shields with ideally autocannons, but in the case of nids Capsule Cannons or HVC's, IIRC they have 3 shields and 2 structure points. So that would take roughly 12 s8 shots at BS three to down the shields as any glance or pen will drop one and about the same amount of warp lances after that to down the beast. So 6 Hive Guard and 12 Zoanthropes to kill a 750 model, that comes out around even.

The trick is making sure you go second in apoc. This means your reserves come in after everything your foe has is in play and you can really head hunt his nastiest things. For example, your titan would now get first shot at his scout titans and it stands a good chance at dealing heavy damage to both of them with its biocannons.

Norade wrote:
So that would take roughly 12 s8 shots at BS three to down the shields as any glance or pen will drop one and about the same amount of warp lances after that to down the beast. So 6 Hive Guard and 12 Zoanthropes to kill a 750 model, that comes out around even.

Why bother downing it's shields if you're going to use something as short ranged as the warp lance or melta, just get within 12 inches and ignore them (This is the big failing of Titans compared to Gargantuan Critters, they fall to pieces rapidly if anti armour things deep strike too close).

Norade wrote:The trick is making sure you go second in apoc. This means your reserves come in after everything your foe has is in play and you can really head hunt his nastiest things. For example, your titan would now get first shot at his scout titans and it stands a good chance at dealing heavy damage to both of them with its biocannons.

Yeah, Apocalypse suffers from alpha strike issues even worse then regular 40k, I recommend setting up for it very carefully with some scenario rules and such to help alleviate that.

Jack

If its a friendly game, keep it at the same points but declare that it still only has a 6++ Inv Save

To be honest here, i would agree with pretty much everything that norade has said, seems pretty solid.

I do however think that the updated save is pretty much overkill.
It tends to make it somewhat impossible to kill.

Maybe try altering the save to a 4+ or so.
Might be able to find a happy medium where it wont go down easily, but it can still work in an army.





Sorry to nitpick, but i have to

By RAW neither does doom,

FAQ says otherwise

Faq is RAI not RAW...

I'm curious tho, how did 1 warhound gib 2 hierophants in 2 turns??? the most it can have is 4 strength D weapons, Did you just completely whiff on a 3+ save?

If they were right next to each other I suppose its possible the Warhound hit both with all 4 Laser Destroyer shots and then rolled well on wounds.

Jack

No we played it out with the 6++. Next time we are gonna up the points cost and try out the 3++.

In apoc it isn't actually going to be that much overkill. Our opponents fielded so many lascannons and plasma guns it was unreal. Even if it unbalances the game at least we will know for next time.

Well, no it doesnt have a 3++, last time i checked a hierophant bio titan wasnt a zoanthrope.

In our gaming group we will be trying out a 3++ warp field on the hierophant after the debacle that was our last apoc game. That's pretty much all there is to it.

This could also be one of those changes that how imbalanced it seems varies wildly depending on the points sizes of the armies involved, the 3++ is more likely to be overly good in a 5k game then in a 50k game.

Also non army effects such as varying table size, do you enough big terrain for it to easily get cover, etc..

Play on a 40x40 ft square with 15 story scale buildings and hills for it to advance amongst and it might not need to worry about lascannons much.

In other words Apocalypse is a funny beast and tricky to balance things for in abstract, you might need to vary its cost from game to game even if you poke at it much.

Jack

The titan doesnt have a 3++, if you want to house rule it, and call him a zoanthrope sure, but you need to actually read the updated warp field rule.

I have read the updated rules and although it technically doesn't get to use the warp field special rule (due to improper wording based on a previous edition codex) I'm not that much of a rules lawyer.

Apoc is about having fun. When you are facing 2 D weapons that knock out all MC's just by touching them it makes it far less fun for the nids player.

We don't really use a lot of terrain for apoc, at least nothing that a titan could use. If nothing else at least after our next game we will know whether or not the hierophant is balanced. If it is great, if not who cares, its apoc and we can re-adjust for next time.

Also I tend to agree with you Jackmojo. We are planning on making our apoc games bigger and bigger. Last one was 12k, next should be around 16k.

Theres nothing technical about it.

And what isnt fun is some tfg trying to claim his t10 10 wound gargantuan creature has a 3++ save.