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So the eternal debate in my marriage of all things, is not Dallas Vrs. SF, as big a football fans as me and my wife are. But truly the one that surpasses this is Superman V. Batman. The last leg of this debate had my wife ask me this (she is Pro Superman), What cool thing can Batman do that isn't directly related too or bought with his huge quantities of cash?

I am hoping for a good reply and I have yet to come up with anything. Help would be most appreciated. Thanks.

Whats wrong with cash? Besides, Superman is an illegal alien. he'd better not show up in Arizona.

If you took Superman's powers away he would be a big pansy. If you took Batman's money away he would still be awesome.
What cool thing can Batman do not related to his money....kick a$$
What cool thing can Superman do without his powers....nothing

All valid points and stated by myself on more than one occasion, but it doesn't relate to the debate lol, because while Batman without cash could kick butt, more than half of what he learned he learned because of his cash.... so really without cash, and without powers both superheroes would be SOL

Batman is a psychopath, doesn't that count for something?

hcordes wrote:All valid points and stated by myself on more than one occasion, but it doesn't relate to the debate lol, because while Batman without cash could kick butt, more than half of what he learned he learned because of his cash.... so really without cash, and without powers both superheroes would be SOL

Good point Soladrin.
"more than half of what he learned he learned because of his cash...." that may be arguable.
So what your wife is saying is that w/o Batman's main asset (cash) he would be nothing. How does that make Superman better? Without his (Superman's) main asset (his powers) he would be nothing as well. So if you take away Batman's money and Superman's powers you would have to normal guys living in the DC universe both of them very uninteresting. I'm not sure then what the point of this debate is.

The point of the debate, is that Superman is an actual Super Hero and Batman is just Hero. Batmans only power is being super rich. But I keep telling my wife, that without the yellow sun Superman is nothing more than an average joe.

Well then she should just know that as her husband you are always right even when you are wrong.

Geemoney wrote:Well then she should just know that as her husband you are always right even when you are wrong.

This. Especially when nerding out.

In all seriousness though, if superman is a super hero, and batman just a hero, that makes batman even cooler, cause he kicked superman's ass.

Soladrin wrote:

Geemoney wrote:Well then she should just know that as her husband you are always right even when you are wrong.

This. Especially when nerding out.

In all seriousness though, if superman is a super hero, and batman just a hero, that makes batman even cooler, cause he kicked superman's ass.

this is what i keep saying but man can she be stubborn.

Don't worry. She'll win. Once she's won, she's won. If you win, thats just a very temporary timeout until she chooses to restart. Much like Orks, wives never lose an argument.

+1 Frazzled

See "The Dark Knight" as per Frank Miller.

Superman may have raw power, x-ray vision and clearly initialled clothing, but Batman has all the tricks. If there is no kryptonite in his back pocket, he'll surely have the appropriate repellent bat-spray.

I'm talking about the real Batman, not that emo with the breastplate and the motorcycle and irritating voice.

Superman isn't a hero,his actions may be seen as heroic...but in truth,Superman usually risk very little (unless kryptonite comes into play) in his actions,and IMO heroism involves risk.
If a group of "villians" pull guns on Supes (or even rocket launchers),Supes knows he's not getting hurt,so stoping them is about as risky for him as beating up a room full of five year olds would be.
If Superman stops a train from going over the edge of a damaged bridge,to the pasengers on the train it may seem "heroic",but in honesty,it's no big thing for Supes,it's about as "amazing" as me getting the cookies off the top shelf is to my kids,they are "amazed and happy" becuase they can't do it themselves (with out risk),but it's no big thing for me.
IMO Superman is no hero.
Batman on the other hand...definatly a hero.

Batman has a Cache of Kryptonite that he carries with him wherever he goes, Just in case Superman goes rogue (again).

Batman wins.

Gwar! wrote:Batman has a Cache of Kryptonite that he carries with him wherever he goes, Just in case Superman goes rogue (again).

Batman wins.

Gwar and everybody else, that is too easy to simply state who would win.

Unless Lex Luthor intervenes and concocts a power resonance device that switches the abilities of Batman and Superman, thus giving the Batman Superman's abilities and weaknesses. Then when he least expects it, Luthor with the help of Bizarro teleport Batman to the Bizarro world where they then attempt to give those powers to Bizarro Bat-man, but at the last minute Brainiac intervenes and attempts to steal Superman's powers from Batman. They both end up getting sucked into a wormhole where in an alternate universe the Joker who stole Mr. Mxyzptlk's powers had effectively defeated the Batman and entertains himself by torturing this version of the Batman for all time. Superman powered Batman joins forces with various other broken and defeated heroes and launches a counter attack which frees this dimension of the Joker's reign but somehow shatters reality again, now sending a mentally broken Joker, a damaged goods Batman, Super-powered Batman, and Brainiac into ANOTHER dimension that is also displaced by millenia into the future where the Black Lanterns had consumed and destroyed the other seven Lantern Corps and plunged the universe in utter darnkess; which conveniently happens to be a Black Hole slowly expanding to destroy all creation. Set to oppose them is none other than a Black Lantern Superman who proceeds to harass the group from one flickering light of hope to another as they search for a way to escape this dimension. Eventually the broken down Batman succumbs to the Black Lanterns and launches a final assault on the group as they discover a few heroes led by none other than Doomsday who killed Superman in this reality but turned into a Black Lantern shortly after and Doomsday's resistance to what Superman could throw at him largely makes him immune to a death at the hands of B.L. Superman. They (minus Doomsday and B.L. Batman) escape into a pocket dimension that was created a long time ago by a Lex Luthor who sought to escape the wraith of B.L. Superman (he didn't) and thus is dedicated to the living memory of him. So in short it is a world created in the image of all the things Lex Luthor stood for (capitalism and science) and populated with people who never even heard of Superman. Beaten Joker finally goes nutz and runs off and Braniac finally renegades the group, attempting to take over Super-powered Batman with some nanites, which Batman destroys using some sort of ultra-speed which phases the nanites out of his body. Then Braniac is smooshed into pieces by a fist. As Batman begins searching for a way out of this dimension, he finds that other super-powered people had taken refuge in it already...and that the dimension cannot hold stability for long. He consults the two prominent heroes Will Magnus and Doctor Fate who have kept the dimension together by technological and mystical means, for tied to the stability of the realm are the artificial people's happiness; so long as they do not suffer or grieve the dimension stays stable. So the escaped Joker becomes the catalyst to the destruction of this alternate really as he descends into a crime spree. The resulting "cracks" in reality allow the Black Lanterns to force their way into this world and start slaughtering the inhabitants by the millions. The few remaining super heroes attempt to fight back and buy Super-powered Batman enough time to use a last resort device that would send him back to his own place and time, but a Black Lanterned Batman and Doomsday intervene and a resulting power struggle over the device causes it to malfunction, which does send Super-powered Batman away, but also pulls the depowered version of Superman with him from his own dimension. They collide together at improbable speeds between the barrier of dimensions and then amalgamate into a new hero:

Super-bat.

So basically it is a draw.

Look at pretty much every Justice League episode. Superman fights a delaying action until Batman outsmarts the villain. In other words, Superman is like your offensive line and Batman is like the qb. Without one, the other can't succeed.

I'm a Batman fan. He's determined, smart, and crazy.

Fitzz makes an excellent point, reminding me of a distinction between the Nordic and Greco-Roman gods. While the Greco-Roman gods were conceived of as truly immortal (i.e., cannot be killed by any means--except great storytelling, perhaps), the Norse gods preserved their youthfulness by means of eating magic apples and very much could be hurt and even killed by violence. In writing about Tolkien, Tom Shippey points out that the Geco-Roman gods are thus incapable of courage whereas their Nordic counterparts are the very paragons of courage. I think that's why the Greco-Roman gods often seem like petty schemers when contrasted to their grim Scandinavian counterparts.

Similarly, Superman is bright and cheery in his blue and red. He clears the pristine skyscrapers of utopian Metropolis in single, blithe bounds. Nearly nothing is impossible for him in this godly aspect. It's only as Clark that he has boundaries that result in dramatic tension--although I can't say I've ever found that facet of the Superman franchise to be very compelling (Peter Parker does it way better, IMO). And that's why there must be kryptonite. Superman without kryptonite is utterly boring. Frankly, even with the kyrptonite I still think he's pretty boring.

Batman, on the other hand, haunts the polluted and decaying nocturnal cityscape of perfidious Gotham. And, as Soldarin usefully points out, his inner life is just as haunted as that city of perpetual darkness. Everything about what Batman does is impossible or at the very least a really terrible idea: how can one man hope to stand against a world that is so thoroughly corrupt, including within his very being? And, without the force of sheer-willpower and an all-consuming neurotic obsession with justice, no man could hope to do so.

Batman begins with weakness: he's a little boy suddenly orphaned, powerless in the face of violence. Batman ends with strength: the vengeful terror develops out of that moment of total vulnerability, eventually becoming an irresistible omen of justice. But Superman begins with strength: a seemingly normal child whose strength and abilities exceed that of any adult. And he ends in weakness: in order to live among humans he must constantly limit and hinder himself (and is ultimately vulnerable to a kind of rock).

As with the respective ancient pantheons, the ones who can take their strength for granted are fascinated by weaknesses (observe the Greek gods hateful love of human foibles, to the point of frequent participation in rape and murder) while those who must take their weakness for granted are eager to become strong (think of Odin conscripting the spirits of fallen warriors via Valkyrie into his army of the end times). In this way, Batman ends up with the greater strength of will, strength of conviction, and strength of character.

Frazzled wrote:Whats wrong with cash? Besides, Superman is an illegal alien. he'd better not show up in Arizona.

Actually, after his "death" some years ago, he was granted full citizenship by ...Clinton I think it was ? .... due to services rendered to the American people.

..it also stopped Cadmus from taking away his body and... etc etc

Urh Superman < Batman any day of the week, end of discussion!

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:See "The Dark Knight" as per Frank Miller.

I'll just leave these links to youtube here, enjoy

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FywMOuMqNuI

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeT1t0lQn5Q&feature=channel


The arguement is much tougher than people think, if you took both charactors at face value then whilst Superman has all his powers and could easily defeat Batman in a 1 on 1 encounter, Batman is extremely intelligent and tactful, so he would not willingly engage Superman without some form of plan, most likely involving Krytonite(spelling)

I think superman is just all round sucky and should be retired immediately. The whole character is just mind numbingly corny. It might have been ok in the 1950s, but now he just oozes suck.

I know we all want batman to win in the fight, and Manchu provides a great argument there as to why he's a better CHARACTER, but come on. Logically, Supes just kicks his ass. Preparation and planning don't amount to much when he can kill you faster than you can percieve him. Hell, he could RESTRAIN Bruce faster than he could move. Comic writers write down what Supes is capable of in those fights, and that's another reason why he, and the Green Lanterns, suck. Check out Marvel's starting couple of books of Supreme Power for a fairly realistic superman level dude.
Superman has killed before, too, I should point out, Batman never has.

... it's been retconned now/a while back but if you check out the end of "10 Nights of the Beast" from back in the day .. special guest star : Ronald Reagan ... he left the KGBeast to die.

Oh, and of course...



http://www.asitecalledfred.com/comics101/images/2004/jan21/strangling.jpg

http://www.asitecalledfred.com/comics101/images/2003/nov26/killing.jpg

Way back when he first appeared Batman snapped necks and even, on occassion, used a gun.



I'm reasonably certain he also killed soemone during "The Cult" storyline as well.

I bow to your superior mastery of continuity reds8n.
(I personally ignore all that because I think it's ludicrous, especially the Final Crisis stuff. Blergh.)

To be fair I don't really think the necksnapping/similar is in the modern continuity.

FInal Crisis was the shizzle. fact. But we've done this dance before, and at the very least am sure we can agree that perhaps killing evil gods who are destroying the whole of reality is permissable.