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So I know technically Waagh! doesnt work with the rules because it says for fleet you can assault after running and Waagh! says you move as do to Waagh! not running so technically could you Waagh! then run and then assault? I mean I know that is not the heart of the power and the heart is to get fleet for a turn and then assault. So... what do you guys think?

Shatter.proof wrote:so technically could you Waagh! then run and then assault?

Depends on what you mean.

If you mean can you declare a Waaagh, run, then assault... then yes, that's exactly what the Waaagh does.
If you mean can you move D6" of 'Waaagh movement' then run, then assault... then no. Waaagh doesn't grant additional movement... it simply conveys the ability to assault after running.

Man why does Waagh! have to have such vague terminology. Cause you roll a d6.. and it says on a 1 you take a wound and move an inch. and Fleet says you can assault after running. So.. Do you get fleet from waagh so you can assault after running. So you can run normally then pop waaagh and then assault after all of them running cause it says any 1's after.. so do you not take the wound but can assault ?

Shatter.proof wrote:Man why does Waagh! have to have such vague terminology.

Because the codex was written to be compatible with both 4th and 5th edition... and Fleet has changed significantly between the two editions.

Cause you roll a d6.. and it says on a 1 you take a wound and move an inch. and Fleet says you can assault after running.

Opinions are divided as to whether the taking a wound on a 1 still applies, due to the wording and the way Fleet has changed. Most people play it that way, though.

So.. Do you get fleet from waagh so you can assault after running.

That's correct.

So you can run normally then pop waaagh and then assault after all of them running cause it says any 1's after.. so do you not take the wound but can assault ?

Maybe. There is no requirement in the codex to declare Waaagh before running... but if you play that the wounds still apply, it would be dodgy and/or awkward to not do so.

So the general (at least from my experience) way of doing this is to declare the Waaagh at the start of the phase. If you're playing it differently, I would recommend discussing it with your opponent before the game so everybody is playing the same game.

Well the thing that makes it kind of dodgy is the fact that you can do it whenever you want within the shooting phase. So say I run and only get ones or 3s on the majority of my forces and I think I can't make it I don't have to blow the Waagh its just a normal phase, but say I get 4-6s and I think I'm gonna get the assault I can pop Waagh!

Which is exactly why it's generally played that you have to call it at the start of the phase.

insaniak wrote:Which is exactly why it's generally played that you have to call it at the start of the phase.

Why? How do we know that what Shatter.Proof says is not in fact the RaI? You yourself admit it was written with 5th in mind...

This is why I say to play by the RaW, as it is the only thing we can be certain of.

Gwar! wrote:Why? How do we know that what Shatter.Proof says is not in fact the RaI? You yourself admit it was written with 5th in mind...

We don't. We can guess, though, based on the fact that it's stupid.

Being able to declare the Waaagh after all of your units have run means either retroactively applying the Waaagh damage where applicable (if it even still applies) or grants you the ability to ignore the damage ... making the rule completely redundant.

I do not believe that a codex written for 5th edition was intended to include a rule that was obsolete as soon as 5th edition kicked in.
Nor do I believe that the intention was for players to be able to ignore the negative effect of the Waaagh simply by not calling it until after all of their units have already run.

So, sure, we don't know that it wasn't intended to work this way. But when making it work that way produces such a ludicrous result, it's a bit of a hint.

Players are obviously free to play it however suits themselves and their opponent... I merely pointed out what is, from my observations, the more common way of doing it.

I personally wouldnt just throw away my once a game wild card assault if I didn't have to. I do agree with retroactively taking a wound on every roll of a 1. But it says every 1 on the Waagh! movement which is kind of messed up because it technically doesn't give any movement, yet it gives fleet which simply allows you to assault after running. So because it give everyone fleet which just goes you can assault after running and you can run before popping Waagh! I don't see why you'd actually have to take a wound. I mean I know its a TFG move and I don't plan on playing it that way but technically how it is worded you could.

insaniak wrote:So, sure, we don't know that it wasn't intended to work this way. But when making it work that way produces such a ludicrous result, it's a bit of a hint.

In your opinion. I for one am of the opinion that GW Writers deliberately wrote the rule in such a fashion that the orks would be penalized for rolling a 1 when making a Fleet Move, as not all units had it, and then to NOT be penalized once 5th came and everyone could run, thus making the rule more tactical in use. The RaW coincidently supports this opinion, but I do not claim that my opinion is any more correct that yours or that it hints to some sort of hidden intent.

What is correct, however, is what the RaW actually says, regardless of the intent (or lack thereof) of the rules, which is that you can indeed run, then declare a Waaagh! if you so wish.

I know this is a hotly debated topic, but I do feel that the RaW both is correct, makes sense and could possibly be intended.

looking at the orc codex:

on page 31:

"Wagghh!!

... once per game,the orc player can declare a waagghh during his shooting phase.This may not normally be declared on the first turn as a proper waagghh requires some momentum behind it.for the duration of that turn, all friendly orc infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule

if a unit of orcs rolls a '1' when making this waaggh movment they start fighting before they reach the enemy. one model in the unit takes a single wound. note that the unit still ,oves 1 inch and may assault as normal."

in 5th ed, all infantry can run an extra d6" instead of shooting. however if they run, they cannot charge that turn. fleet of foot/claw/etc allows a charge after a run. wagghh grants the orcs fleet of foot for that turn. no where does it state you must declare at the START of the shooting phase, only during. therefore, you could shoot some units, run all intended, shoot some more, then wagghh, and progress to your assault phase. at least thats the RAW as i read them.

That's how I read it as well, I think the confusion is the rolling a '1' for a wound. Is it only the '1's after running period or after running with 'Waagh!' active.

I believe it is more for the tactical use because if you run and the majority of your guys are high and you think you can make it into assault you pop Waagh! and if you dont think you can you dont. I think it fits with the Orks personally the way you pop it when you want it because if they turn out to be lazy running why would they want to get all worked up for fightin' but if they get a good long run and see the enemy right there ready for fightin' they get all worked up waagh! and charge.

Shatter.proof wrote: So because it give everyone fleet which just goes you can assault after running and you can run before popping Waagh! I don't see why you'd actually have to take a wound.

That's the general RAW argument that gets tossed about when Waaagh movement comes up, yes.

Again, whether or not you actually play that way is up to you and your opponent... but I wouldn't recommend just springing it on them and expecting them to agree with it.

Gwar! wrote:In your opinion. I for one am of the opinion that GW Writers deliberately wrote the rule in such a fashion that the orks would be penalized for rolling a 1 when making a Fleet Move, as not all units had it, and then to NOT be penalized once 5th came and everyone could run, thus making the rule more tactical in use.

That's certainly possible. But given a choice between 'badly written rule that is intended to function but just isn't written as clearly as it should be' and 'badly written rule that is not intended to function at all but was included in the codex solely for use during the, what, 6 months? that the old edition was still around'... I'm going with the first interpretation as being the least silly.

Its technically not a badly written rule it is just an out dated rule and by how current rules work it can just be used to let all your orks assault after running as per fleet rule in BRB pg 75. And since Waagh! gives no movement only the ability to assault after running.

So the break down would be declaring running of units. Then use Waagh! to let them assault and since it gives no movement at all and no dice is rolled for Waagh! because of new rule set no wound would come about. No dice is being rolled for Waagh! it is being rolled for running.

In the current rule set RaW you just get to run and assault as per fleet rules if you declare using Waagh after running.

Shatter.proof wrote:Its technically not a badly written rule it is just an out dated rule

Which, in a codex that was supposedly designed for 5th edition, makes it a badly written rule. There shouldn't be any out-dated rules in there.

Being designed for and released in are two different things.

Perhaps they didn't know they were going to change fleet or give everyone the ability to run when the codex was released, maybe they did ultimately it is irrelevant. The way Waagh! is worded can be applied to 5th making it not totally irrelevant, if the words had said it can move as if it had fleet then it would be but since it says that they get fleet it I read it as them being able to assault after running.

I like retroactive wounding myself. You're always going to run when you want/can take the chance, and with enough mobs (see >2) you have decent chances of rolling a 1 while still getting your other mobs into assault range so..... You're still likely to cop the waaargh wound.

Shatter.proof wrote:... but since it says that they get fleet it I read it as them being able to assault after running.

Yes, that's exactly what fleet does.

The problem isn't with the effect of Fleet. Calling the Waaagh grants them Fleet, which allows them to assault after running. That part isn't in question.

The problem that leads to people choosing to house rule it rather than play by the RAW in this case is with the timing of the Waaagh call (which didn't matter in 4th edition, but most certainly does now) and with the penalty for rolling a 1, which in 4th edition applied to the Fleet roll, and which in 5th edition doesn't technically apply to anything.

So yes, you're free to assume that you can call the Waaagh at any time. But you'll need to take the time to explain to your opponent what effect that has on any units that have already run before you called it.
And you're free to assume that rolling a 1 for the run has no effect... although you will have to be consistent with it and assume that Ghaz's automatic 6 likewise doesn't apply.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't be too surprised if the guy on the other side of the table disagrees that this is the way it should be played, regardless of how correct you think your interpretation is according to the RAW.

Well I'm not assuming really anything. RaW Waagh! says it give them fleet of foot. Fleet of foot says they can assault after running. The second part of Waagh! says that on a roll for Waagh! movement you take a wound. You never take a Waagh! movement only a run movement. If you say could you could run d6 Waagh! a d6 and then assault 6" which is not how the rule works.

It says "If that unit rolls a 1 on its Waagh! movement..." There is no Waagh! movement only the run movement. The way you are saying it says that you dont run you get the Waagh! movement which then means you dont get fleet cause fleet says you can assault after running.

By the way I'm understanding your interpretation you get the run and waagh! movement and any 1 on the waagh! gives a wound, and then you can assault as rule of fleet which I think is not how the rule is meant to work.

You know, moving 6+2d6+6 isn't that broken really. Just as a side note. There is nothing in the ork codex that can waargh that can do more than this....
I don't believe this is the ruling intended or that should be used, but it is an interesting aside.

Well if you run the HQ that gives auto 6' and an assault a claw army you are looking at an 18" +6 threat range on assault. That's pretty big

Shatter.proof wrote:By the way I'm understanding your interpretation you get the run and waagh! movement and any 1 on the waagh! gives a wound, and then you can assault as rule of fleet which I think is not how the rule is meant to work.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the Waaagh movement in 4th edition was the movement conferred by Fleet.
In 5th edition, Fleet doesn't confer movement, so by a specific interpretation of RAW there is no defined 'Waaagh movement'... it is a stated effect that has no definition under the current ruleset... but the general assumption is that the 5th edition Run movement is supposed to replace the 4th edition Fleet movement for the purposes of the Waaagh.

So you declare the Waaagh, and any units that run suffer the penalty if they roll a 1 on their Run move.

Not strictly RAW, but (IMO) makes more sense than that a penalty was written in specifically for a ruleset that was going to be obsolete 6 months later.

insaniak wrote:Not strictly RAW, but (IMO) makes more sense than that a penalty was written in specifically for a ruleset that was going to be obsolete 6 months later.

Again, in your opinion. In mine, I feel it does make sense.

However, my opinion is backed up by the RaW, while yours is backed up by "how it used to work". In all, I do feel mine to be a stronger argument.

What you think it does and what it says it does seem to be two different things. Its just like nightmare doll with Dark Eldar. Logically it should work, yet it doesnt with the rules. Waagh! simply says on the Waagh! movement roll of 1 and there is no rolling for Waagh! movement so ergo no wounds.

Oh, I agree. It should work like it used to, but sadly, it does not.

Why is there a second thread about the same topic started a mere 5 hours after the first?

Locking this one. Use the other thread to continue any offshoot discussions from this thread.