Switch Theme:

Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Agreed, esp as often as not if there's no big overall plot to structure it; shows can fall off the rails of repeating themselves or going off the deep end of just totally random

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I think the difference with LD compared to other Trek shows is that it didn't need to fill a 25 episode quota so there's very little in that is filler.
TNG, DS9, Enterprise, and even Voyager all had to fill the quota and had a lot of guff that lasted until the end even if in between that guff there were stellar episodes like Lower Decks, any of the Quark episodes, Cogenitor, or *insert Voyager episode here*.
Ok, maybe not Voyager, but the rest count.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






 Overread wrote:
The thing is the Federation can't reach the Borg home systems for a very long time. They are a major threat (mostly because they organise and unite at a large level and the Borg clearly thrive when systems are in conflict with each other and they can pick them off one at a time); but they are also a far off major threat to the Borg.

Also if the Federation can kill one cube and have proven that they can do it; then sending them one at a time is just sacrificing cubes. It's basically the same kind of attack I'd expect from an RTS game AI - attack the same heavily defended point with the same volume of units every X period of time. Whilst the defender (human player) adds more defences and repairs each time.

All the AI is doing is wasting resources and not actually gaining any ground.




The single Borg cube attacks at the same, they don't really achieve very much that the Borg then capitalise on. Yes they smash up a fleet very heavily; but the Borg don't then send another Cube right after; instead the Federation is allowed long enough to repair, rearm and improve.

Again we see in Voyager that the Borg have many, many cubes. If the Federation is such a huge threat to them you'd think they'd send three or four or five. Actually destroy the heart of the Federation and even if those cubes are lost they'd have shattered the Federations powerbase and allies for generations.




Plus all that still doesn't explain why you'd also send your Queen. Ants do not attack an enemy swarm with the Queen in the front lines and if they did she'd be with the majority of the Swarm not a single splinter.


As the Borg are, they’re not really shown to advance on their own. By sending one Cube you get to learn what the targets have, and also inspire them to create counters to you that you can learn from the next time. Also, given their Queen has forth dimension escape measures, there’s not really a reason Not to have her go along since she’s not in any real danger.

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 AduroT wrote:
 Overread wrote:
The thing is the Federation can't reach the Borg home systems for a very long time. They are a major threat (mostly because they organise and unite at a large level and the Borg clearly thrive when systems are in conflict with each other and they can pick them off one at a time); but they are also a far off major threat to the Borg.

Also if the Federation can kill one cube and have proven that they can do it; then sending them one at a time is just sacrificing cubes. It's basically the same kind of attack I'd expect from an RTS game AI - attack the same heavily defended point with the same volume of units every X period of time. Whilst the defender (human player) adds more defences and repairs each time.

All the AI is doing is wasting resources and not actually gaining any ground.




The single Borg cube attacks at the same, they don't really achieve very much that the Borg then capitalise on. Yes they smash up a fleet very heavily; but the Borg don't then send another Cube right after; instead the Federation is allowed long enough to repair, rearm and improve.

Again we see in Voyager that the Borg have many, many cubes. If the Federation is such a huge threat to them you'd think they'd send three or four or five. Actually destroy the heart of the Federation and even if those cubes are lost they'd have shattered the Federations powerbase and allies for generations.




Plus all that still doesn't explain why you'd also send your Queen. Ants do not attack an enemy swarm with the Queen in the front lines and if they did she'd be with the majority of the Swarm not a single splinter.


As the Borg are, they’re not really shown to advance on their own. By sending one Cube you get to learn what the targets have, and also inspire them to create counters to you that you can learn from the next time. Also, given their Queen has forth dimension escape measures, there’s not really a reason Not to have her go along since she’s not in any real danger.


But they'd already sent (and lost) multiple ships and at least one cube during the TNG series. This wasn't an exploratory Cube it was an invasion. Considering their losses thus far and the potential for Picard to have shared even more information (which he does and it results in the single cube blowing up); the logical thing would have been to send several cubes either in formation or to attack multiple parts of the Federation at once. Considering that the Federation isn't one world and one race but multiple; it would stand to reason that they could lose Earth and still remain quite functional.
I'd have expected cubes hitting Earth, Vulcan and probably few other key worlds all at once with trans-warp trickery.


Again the Borg seem to act really oddly with the Federation. We see them go nuts trying to kill Species 8472, but when the Federation is the next greatest threat they seem like they want to lose.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Yea I love LD but I'm fine with 5 seasons.

What's the scuttlebutt on the other Actual Trek show that doesn't go number one and number two on the source material, SNW, continuing?

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Renewed for a fourth apparently.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 Gert wrote:
I think the difference with LD compared to other Trek shows is that it didn't need to fill a 25 episode quota so there's very little in that is filler.
TNG, DS9, Enterprise, and even Voyager all had to fill the quota and had a lot of guff that lasted until the end even if in between that guff there were stellar episodes like Lower Decks, any of the Quark episodes, Cogenitor, or *insert Voyager episode here*.
Ok, maybe not Voyager, but the rest count.

Hey now, there were some pretty good Voyager episodes too. Memorial, Jetrel, Living Witness are ones that come to mind for me (feel free to disagree of course).

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 25 | Current main painting project: Kruleboyz Spearhead
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

 Overread wrote:

Again the Borg seem to act really oddly with the Federation. We see them go nuts trying to kill Species 8472, but when the Federation is the next greatest threat they seem like they want to lose.
for what we have seen, it does not look like the Federation is seen as a threat but rather a source

Voyager has established that the Borg use certain planets as research facilities, 1 cube invasion taking everything but the minimum and let the civilisation develop again until they reach a certain technological point and send a 1 cube invasion again

So the Borg figured out that they can find everything that makes the federation on earth so going there and "harvest" it with 1 cube (much more efficient to only assimilate 1 world were everything is combined than several different worlds for the same result) without ever intended to wipe out the Federation in the first run but sending in another cube years later to see what new stuff the Federation developed and this over and over again to drive their own development

they tried the same with Species 8472 but realised that they are on a different level and usual tactic of almost destroy them on a regular bases to get new technology does not work as they were able to fight back on a large scale
and here the Borg might have gotten the impression for the first time that the Federation is a threat because they could adept to something they could not
yet because they cannot make their own research as they lost the ability to come up with something new on the way, the Federation has become much more interesting as future source for technology (instead of destroying a possible threat)

Last Episode of Voyager than established that the Federation will develop the technology to do the same as 8472 and fight the Borg on a large scale without them being able to adept and in the long run will destroy them
Something the Queen learned the hard way so what does not make much sense here is to send again only one cube in First Contact as a large scale invasion to wipe them out should have been the way to go.
Except if this was already the last ditch effort because the collective was not able to operate any more.

By the time of First Contact, the Unicomplex was destroyed and the Unimatrix Zero rebellion should be still ongoing
so it makes sense assuming this was the plan of an isolated Queen trying to prevent the destruction that happened
just destroying "present" earth or the Federation was not enough as damage was already done, so removing the Federation from the timeline so the destruction and rebellion never happen and in addition add a warning about 8472 and/or the technology to fight them into the collective

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Disco S5 E4

Genuinely somewhat impressed. Two crew mystery of time jumps, and clearly a way to integrate the new Commander with the crew, as he experiences some of what they’ve been through together.

   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in es
Longtime Dakkanaut






 lord_blackfang wrote:
Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.


Star Wars isn't science-fiction, it's space opera.

Star Trek isn't science-fiction, it's science-fantasy.

That's my take at least. I don't mean to be derogatory with that either, just better descriptive, at least in my own mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/18 14:56:42


 
   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Meanwhile in Canada, Star Trek migrated from the streaming service that has HBO which I have to Paramount+ which I don't have so I'm going to wait until the whole season is done before picking up a one month subscription.

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.


I'm very much the same. It was never really a thing beyond the odd episode and movie in the past and now its just run of the mill everyone is jumping around in time and it honestly makes for very messy stories in my view unless its built in from the very start and ST was never supposed to be about lots of timetravel. I know why producers like it; they can write whatever they want and use time to mess with it - got a series that isn't popular, just time-write it out; want to follow the metrics/whatever and do something that wouldn't work with the current series but you want to keep the ST name - timetravel it in.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Disco S4 finale

*loud farting noises*

Booo! BOOOOOOOO!!!!

   
Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




 bbb wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.


Star Wars isn't science-fiction, it's space opera.

Star Trek isn't science-fiction, it's science-fantasy.

That's my take at least. I don't mean to be derogatory with that either, just better descriptive, at least in my own mind.


Just the opposite. Star Wars is the one with swords, magic, wizards, princesses, etc.

Star Trek is space opera. Which is a subgenre of science fiction.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Bran Dawri wrote:
 bbb wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.


Star Wars isn't science-fiction, it's space opera.

Star Trek isn't science-fiction, it's science-fantasy.

That's my take at least. I don't mean to be derogatory with that either, just better descriptive, at least in my own mind.


Just the opposite. Star Wars is the one with swords, magic, wizards, princesses, etc.

Star Trek is space opera. Which is a subgenre of science fiction.


No, it really is the opposite
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

BOTH are Science Fiction

Star Wars is a space-fantasy-opera

Star Trek depends a little which series. Original was much more space fantasy; whilst following series are more sci-fi with little injections of fantasy here and there (mostly Q).

Neither is a "Hard sci-fi" series based on Newtonian physics and current understandings of space and space travel.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







But unlike Wars, Trek does what is most important for Sci-fi: explore the biological, societal and moral ramifications of (imaginary) technological advancement.

And don't get me wrong, I appreciate the anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist sentiment of Star Wars, but its story isn't affected by the tech of the setting in any way.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

True, though I feel like sci-fi doesn't have to have tech-technobabble just like fantasy doesn't have to have intense complex magical systems.

It's an aspect which can be a focus, but not the only one.


Also I'd argue that Trek was at its best when it had just that element of mystery, wonder and a bit of magic to its explorations. I feel like modern Treks kind of lose that to the techo-babble and combat elements a bit too much these days.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

what is magic and what is alien is not really something were you can draw a line

problem with modern trek up to a point is that the creators "hate" what old trek is standing for (not what it is but what the memes in pop culture think it is) and therefore try to make it different but missing the point

Star Trek used the Science to explore alt-history and what if scenarios as questions to the audience with the main story not being the focus but the vehicle to those "what if" questions

Star Wars are adventure stories with the focus being the story and the characters behind it
hence why those get less interesting as soon as the story and characters fails as a vehicle for that advanture

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Not sure where you get the idea that the current showrunners "hate" previous Trek shows.
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

that is not what I have written

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Then elaborate more because I don't get what you mean that they "hate" what previous shows "stood for". Star Trek was about promoting diversity and equality in a sci-fi setting. It was about tackling social and personal issues ranging from racism to mental health.
I'm not the biggest fan of Discovery and Picard but god damn did Picard do a heartbreakingly good job at showing someone with a degenerative neurological condition and the effects it had on their life.
The stories might be poor sometimes but you can't pretend that every other Trek show has some absolutely shocking episodes. Someone I work with has just started TNG and asked me for recommendations and a told them to skip most of it because its really bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/03 18:28:54


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Oh yeah, TNG you skip season 1, I don't think there is really anything in there worth watching, except for maybe the episode with the traveller so you understand Wesley's arc.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






And the episodes which feature Q.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You skip the first season you miss out on Tasha Yar; Q, Wesley arc and a few other things too. Sure the series was finding its feet; that's true of almost every multi-series long thing. Heck even books often have a slow 1st book starting out and big series (eg Discworld) can be very different in book 1 of 20-30 but still that opening and those early parts are important.

Esp to anyone new or wanting a refresher.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Overread wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Not a response to Disco as I haven't seen it, but in general I wish Trek had never gone for Back to the Future style time travel shenanigans.


I'm very much the same. It was never really a thing beyond the odd episode and movie in the past and now its just run of the mill everyone is jumping around in time and it honestly makes for very messy stories in my view unless its built in from the very start and ST was never supposed to be about lots of timetravel. I know why producers like it; they can write whatever they want and use time to mess with it - got a series that isn't popular, just time-write it out; want to follow the metrics/whatever and do something that wouldn't work with the current series but you want to keep the ST name - timetravel it in.


Are you a lazy writers room? Do you know what fans love? Nostalgia? Do you know how to deliver it? Time travel? Do you know what else they love? Time travel saying it is all a dream so everything is the same as before in a very forced way!
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Discovery should have been set in the future the whole time. Keep everything about it mostly the same, hell even keep the Klingon war because 200 odd years from the end of DS9 could easily have a weird religious cult dedicated to the Old Ways after the rest of the Klingons joined the Federation.
Spore Drive works as a way to try and replace Warp Drives after the Burn. Ships with funky 21st-century designs don't look off because they're supposed to be older than the 1960s Enterprise design.
I will give Discovery credit for reigniting Trek again though. Without it there'd be no Lower Decks, Picard, or SNW and I like at least two of those.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/04 16:59:37


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Random odd thought on modern Trek compared to TNG era. I don’t think it’s a hot take, but we’ll see.

First, what I don’t like about Discovery is the look of the tech. Things like haptic control panels and holoscreens a few years before TOS is set - making the NCC-1701 seem like a throwback designed by some manbunned Hipster gimp.

Second, with its fuuuuuuuture tech refit, those stupid floaty nacelles which only seem to have a vague purpose right at the arse end of the final season, where they’re tucked up when flying into a much larger ship’s launch bays.

Now? What I liked about the TNG Era.

It felt like an organic development. Good bit more advanced and futuristic than TOS due to larger budget and cheaper fancy prop availability,

But…TNG era had an advantage Disco didn’t. And that was being contemporaneous with the later TOS movies. Which meant various sets built for one another were available for use with some lighting changes or light redressing.

That really helped it meld the two fairly disparate eras together and feel like a cohesive progression of technology. And it wasn’t until post-Borg encounter we saw Starfleet really develop its ship design - the most dramatic example of course being the USS Defiant. But even then, there was a clear design lineage, with the occasional “here’s a ship you’ve never seen before” to help bridge gaps and further refine the overall progression, including the Enterprise C and USS Bozeman, all the way through to the Enterprise E.

Then….people fiddled. I appreciate the Discovery’s exterior design predates even TNG, bring a Ralph McQuarrie concept for what would become The Motion Picture. But the interior (not even counting that moronic turbo lift scene) was just too different.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The issue of going back in time in a sci-fi series and having apparent superior tech to the future seasons that were made decades before also happens in Starwars.

Droids in Starwars 4-6 are mostly fairly clunky and slow. In 1-3 they are slick, agile, efficient and highly effective.

You look at something like C3PO and compare his motions to the Droids of the Trade Federation and its almost backwards. Yet there's no apparent tech drop in Starwars as a setting.



In part its because new advances let them do what they wanted to do first time; its also cause actually doing retro might not fit with "modern audiences" and what they envision a futuristic ship to look like today compared to what we thought decades ago.

Heck even things like the ST Communicators and "Alex......Computer" are things we have today.



It's tricky, but it does justify going forward; sadly show runners/writers/producers seem to feel like at the end of Voyager all major exploration in the Milky Way is done, dusted and over. So they keep going more and more outlandish.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
 
Forum Index » Geek Media
Go to: