Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The first power will be, ofc, Wings of Sanguinius.

What shall the second one be?

There will be two of these supporting each other, Mephisto and running towards a standard MM drop-pod dread from the first turn (For epic Dread-sandwich CC action). There will be a contingent of 30 assault marines as the troop core with a Sanguinary priest. All jump packs; to give you some context.

Thanks

No regular Librarians with Sanguine Shield? For shame!

MagicJuggler wrote:No regular Librarians with Sanguine Shield? For shame!

While awesome and with the potential for great things; it would only benefit infantry models (mephiston included) as, as it stands, you need the "concealed" effort to get a cover-save for vehicles. If it doesn't include the concealed effect (which, for example, the Kustom Force Field for orks does) then any vehicles (walkers included) will not benefit from the shield power.

In regards to the shield used in conjunction with lots of jump-pack infantry.. its good but the range is too limited & the entire army too mobile for it to be effective. As for mephistom & coversaves; that is why there are two dreadnoughts for mephiston to hide behind!

Edit: Oh a standard mr-man librarian.. could do. But I'm not entirely fussed about cover-saves. If I really want that cover-save, I will intend to drop into area terrain and suffer more minimal losses with Dangerous Terrain tests allowing anti-MEQ weapons a 4+ saves. Plus, Mephiston has a rule (its written reeeeallly small, tiny in fact, detailing "Thou shall not suffer me with weaker copies" )

Probably Blood Lance and Shield of Sanguinius. This way they can protect themselves and when they pod in they can really cause problems for your opponent with successful casting of Blood Lance.

I think Wings are a must, and of all the other powers, I find the extra D3 attacks to be most useful. I don't think Blood Lance is very good because it can't be used in conjunction with Wings, and a slogging Walker (even drop podding) simply doesn't have that many opportunities to hit valuable AV10-11 targets.

Razerous wrote:then any vehicles (walkers included) will not benefit from the shield power.

+

Caffran9 wrote: Shield of Sanguinius. This way they can protect themselves

So yeah, no they cant. Shield of Sanguinius wont work on walkers.

sourclams wrote:I think Wings are a must, and of all the other powers, I find the extra D3 attacks to be most useful. I don't think Blood Lance is very good because it can't be used in conjunction with Wings, and a slogging Walker (even drop podding) simply doesn't have that many opportunities to hit valuable AV10-11 targets.

So blood lance is a no go; fair doo's.

Might of Heroes; The +D3 attacks that can be used in either assault phase.. This is good and will work well if you need to use wings during your turn to remain effective.

But;

Which is better, +D3 attacks on a WS6 walker OR Preferred Enemy for re-rolling on to-hit (again, during either assault phase). ?

Wings are a must as said, and ive found that might is worth its weight in gold.

From a WS6 walker those attacks are pretty evil.

Don't mind me forum jacking, but dose Wings+Might of Heroes work just as well on a normal librarian?

Happygrunt wrote:Don't mind me forum jacking, but dose Wings+Might of Heroes work just as well on a normal librarian?

Not really. A jump pack is essential (I think) for a jumpy librarian.. I don't see much use for a lone jetbike librarian. Wont work well alone, better powers to include when you field with an assault type squad.

Razerous wrote:Which is better, +D3 attacks on a WS6 walker OR Preferred Enemy for re-rolling on to-hit (again, during either assault phase). ?

Well, looking at average results, the Might of Heroes dread gets 3.3 hits, while the Preferred Enemy dread gets 2.67. If luck is very much in your favor, the first dread could land as many as six attacks, while the second only three. Since librarian dreads cannot take blood talons, I would say Might of Heroes every time.

Happygrunt wrote:Don't mind me forum jacking, but dose Wings+Might of Heroes work just as well on a normal librarian?

I would say no. Wings are not needed at all for a Librarian. He's either with a jump squad and can take a jump pack that doesn't require a leadership check, or he is sharing their transport. And since Preferred Enemy affects the entire unit, instead of just one model, it's the better option by far.

Well I disagree on the above interpretation of Shield not affecting vehicles, but to avoid arguments I would recommend Might, if the FAQ comes out in favor of shield working for vehicles I would recommend shield.

I too run a Libby dread, Jump and Might most of the time, he has a very spotty record so far. I am no at all convinced he is worth his high point cost. Does anyone else have much experience running libby dreads?

Yes, my regular opponent has had quite a bit of success with his Librarian Furioso. 175 points is a hefty price, but when backed up by a Talon Furioso or two to keep them out of trouble, they do quite well.

Of course, he runs an unusual load-out I haven't seen elsewhere, by replacing the blood fist with a frag cannon. He rarely gives it jump, since even if the Storm Raven is taken down early, the occupants are walking too, and he doesn't believe in throwing near-200 point models out there unsupported.

With Lance, Might of Heroes, and frag cannon, this thing is quite brutal to anything that it comes across. The hood annoys my Psychic Battle Squads to no end, the lance can pop vehicles, and the frag cannon obliterates my heavy weapon teams and massed guardsmen. Then in close combat, it still has 2+D3 WS6 S6 attacks that can benefit from furious charge. This thing is such a thorn in my side, I'm starting to wish I hadn't given him the idea.

That said, against non-Guard armies, it is certainly not the best option in the elite slots, nor the best option for a psyker. For my Space Wolves, blood talon Furiosos, terminators with sanguinary priests, and regular librarians with Shield and Unleash Rage are far more annoying.

You can't take any extra equipment on the libbioso. He exchanges all wargear for his stuff

Its easily conceptualized and non game breaking to assuming that the remaining like-for-like wargear that the Furioso librarian has can be exchanged for the relevant upgrades.

Cheers for that math-hammer; I had not considered Might of Heroes as I assume re-rolls to always be the best but the math does not lie nor do WS6 (with 3's to-hit vs most things!).

Cheers

sourclams wrote:I think Wings are a must, and of all the other powers, I find the extra D3 attacks to be most useful. I don't think Blood Lance is very good because it can't be used in conjunction with Wings, and a slogging Walker (even drop podding) simply doesn't have that many opportunities to hit valuable AV10-11 targets.

I came in 2nd at Ard Boyz this past weekend running 3 Libby Dreds in drop pods. All had Might of Heros, and Blood Lance. Keep in mind that the Lance is a "Lance weapon so it needs a 4+ to glance or better anything AV 12 or higher.

2 of the games I played I took out or immobilized several vehicles on turn one, including a landraider each game. Also the ability to target one unit, Blood Lance a different direction to shot tanks, and then assault the original unit cannot be over looked.

Illumini wrote:You can't take any extra equipment on the libbioso. He exchanges all wargear for his stuff

Nowhere in the codex does it say that. It does say that you can trade a single blood fist for a frag cannon, and the Furioso Librarian just happens to have a single blood fist.

It does say that it exchanges all wargear:

Upgrade to ..., exchanging all wargear for ...

I'm all for allowing the libbioso access to upgrades, but not sure if it can take upgrades when it says you exchange all wargear. You could of course interpret that wargear is only what it initially comes equipped with, and the rest are options.

Yes, it does, but there is nothing limiting it from purchasing additional options, otherwise you would argue it can't take magna grapples either, nor upgrade the built-in stormbolter of the blood fist to a heavy flamer. The only option not available to the Librarian are the blood talons, because you need trade in two blood fists for them.

I am not normally a RAW nazi but if it says "replace all other wargear with" then that means that when you make it librarian all other wargear is replaced whether you paid points for it or not. took a frag cannon? cool. made it a librarian? ok that frag cannon is a blood fist. repace it with a frag cannon? sorry but it's a blood fist. there's also the point that the libbioso options is at the bottom of the listed options.And i would argue that it can't take a magna grapple or heavy flamer.

A captain has more wargear options than a librarian; why would a lib dread be any less specialized? At least that's my take on it (but I would love to be wrong).


Also why doesn't Shield work on vehicles?

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:I am not normally a RAW nazi but if it says "replace all other wargear with" then that means that when you make it librarian all other wargear is replaced whether you paid points for it or not. took a frag cannon? cool. made it a librarian? ok that frag cannon is a blood fist. repace it with a frag cannon? sorry but it's a blood fist. there's also the point that the libbioso options is at the bottom of the listed options.And i would argue that it can't take a magna grapple or heavy flamer.

A captain has more wargear options than a librarian; why would a lib dread be any less specialized? At least that's my take on it (but I would love to be wrong).


Also why doesn't Shield work on vehicles?

There's no RAW order in which upgrades must be taken. Since the Librarian upgrade lets you keep a Blood Fist, you can, RAW, replace it with a frag cannon. Shield doesn't work on vehicles RAW because cover saves can only be taken against wounds; it must confer "obscured" status for vehicles to be able to get the 4+ save.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:Also why doesn't Shield work on vehicles?

Vehicles need the "Obscured" effect to get a cover-save. A vehicle benefiting from a cover-save aura does not actually get a cover-save. It's why the kustom force field and Tau disruption pods work with vehicles and it is also why Shield doesn't. Read the rules regarding vehicles & obscured to confirm this if you don't want to take my word.

jbunny wrote:
I came in 2nd at Ard Boyz this past weekend running 3 Libby Dreds in drop pods. All had Might of Heros, and Blood Lance. Keep in mind that the Lance is a "Lance weapon so it needs a 4+ to glance or better anything AV 12 or higher.

2 of the games I played I took out or immobilized several vehicles on turn one, including a landraider each game. Also the ability to target one unit, Blood Lance a different direction to shot tanks, and then assault the original unit cannot be over looked.

I like this idea, I like it alot.

The potential for first-turn alpha-strike is pretty huge. I am unsure (as Blood lance "is a psychic shooting attack") if it need to roll to-hit to cast the initial 4d6" line.. but the ability to hit multiple units/vehicles with one shot is pretty good, if you ask me.

Combine this the alpha-strike potential of Stormravens, you may have a winner! Ofc the lance rule and the ability to hit multiple units in the line and charge the original target are good points too.

Still, I have my wee heart set on Wing'ed dreads.. and I hope not just for fluffy wishy reasons either; They will be able to give real support to Mephiston.

Choice of psychic powers I guess really depends on how you equip your dreadnought.

Wings of Sanguinis is a must

Which leaves you the following

Blood Lance: If you skip the Frag Cannon then this is very nice to have. If immobilized then its even better since this will may all you have left to use.

Shield of Sanguinis: This is nice if you are using the Librarian Dread to move with your troops as support. There is no hard rule atm in non tournament games on wether it effects vehicles or not and can be argued both ways. In tournaments that use INAT ( most do ) then it works on vehicles like Stormcaller does. Non tournament it strongly advisable to talk to your opponent first, before the game.

Sanguine Sword: IF you use a Frag Launcher then this is a must as you will now be at Str 6. While Str 6 is good for infantry you become fairly useless to many vehicles who have back armor greater then 12. The Str 10 attacks will kill most multi wound models in one hit and this alone could keep them at bay.

Might of Heroes: Extra d3 attacks is always nice

Fear the Darkness: While I like this ability on normal Librarians, its use is very limited on a Dread that is not likely to last the entire game to pull it off on a unit on an objective.

Also I am rather suprised that people aren't using extra armor or magna grapples. The 15 points for extra armor is a must if you get stunned you just sit there for a whole turn with no options to shoot or assault or move. Magna Grapples make some long range assaults very possible of up to 29" away ( 12" jump, 12" pull followed by 6" charge ) not to mention its a Str 8 ranged weapon.

To be honest I don't do alot of upgrades because I alphastrike them. My opponents normally throw everything at them on turn one. Might seem like a waste, but it allows my 3 Vindies and 2 Baals to roll up and not be shot at first turn.

jbunny wrote:To be honest I don't do alot of upgrades because I alphastrike them. My opponents normally throw everything at them on turn one. Might seem like a waste, but it allows my 3 Vindies and 2 Baals to roll up and not be shot at first turn.

Killing two furioso's & mephiston first turn assuming they have a coversave.. is going to be a bit tricky. At 1500pts, I would not assume its easily done.

Borris the Blade wrote:Choice of psychic powers I guess really depends on how you equip your dreadnought.

Wings of Sanguinis is a must

I would dispute that if you have Storm Ravens.

Shield of Sanguinis: This is nice if you are using the Librarian Dread to move with your troops as support. There is no hard rule atm in non tournament games on wether it effects vehicles or not and can be argued both ways. In tournaments that use INAT ( most do ) then it works on vehicles like Stormcaller does. Non tournament it strongly advisable to talk to your opponent first, before the game.

You can't argue against RAW. As it stands, unless they release a FAQ to say otherwise, vehicles cannot benefit from the cover save given here.

I would dispute that if you have Storm Ravens.

Even with a Storm Raven I would take Wings of Sanguinis as mobility is king for melee units. That Storm Raven gets shot down prematurely then your Lib Dread will be Sh** out of luck and have to hoof it by foot and will be lucky to see combat. Even if the Stom Raven gets him to the exact spot a 12" jump move is better then anything listed in Psy Powers. After your initial charge out of a Blood Raven next turn, Wings of Sang for 12", Magna Grapple a target 12" to come in closer then engage on the 6" charge.


Can always argue against RaW on certain things. If people didn't take RaI into consideration there is a thread with a ton of things that wouldnt work in the game. If no one could argue vs RaW then the rule as you stated wouldnt have been corrected in the INAT so that it does work on Vehicles. Just pull up the INAT and look up Stormcaller. Though I will not argue this further as I have had more then my fair share in another post. As far as all the people I play with in San Diego and the very large league I am in and Adepticon and So Cal Slaughter tournaments, the Shield of Sanguinis ( So Cal Slaughter as codex wasnt official at the time ) and Stormcaller both work on vehicles, so any further arguements is a moot point.

Meh, if the Raven goes down, it probably deposited a large close combat unit as well that now has to hoof it across the board. A Librarian Dread is not combat-capable enough to do much on its own, it's meant to be a support piece. If it flies off on its own with its purty Gundam wings, it will be shredded and dead by the time the squad catches up.

And RaI can be argued when the intent is clear. We have no idea what they intended here, but we have a damn clear idea what they WROTE. I don't see anything in the INAT FAQ about Storm Caller, but if it really was ruled like that, that is the height of idiocy. Storm Caller clearly says "SQUADS". A vehicle is a unit, a vehicle is a model, but a vehicle is NOT a squad. Shield of Sanguinius is at least somewhat vague with the use of "unit", and someone could argue that cover == concealment, but to do that with Storm Caller is just dumb.

So if you and your SD buddies are allowing it, that's fine, but your houserule 40K is not the 40K the rest of us are playing.

Since squads don't exist by RaW even tho RaI makes it easy to determine units, it was FaQ'd by GW to say all units.

INAT 3.3 Quote

RB.62B.01 – Q: Does 50% of a vehicle‟s facing actually have to be physically obscured for it to claim a cover save in all cases? Or when it comes to area terrain does it just need 50% of the facing within the terrain to get the save?
A: Except where a vehicle is granted a save by special means (such as an Ork Kustom Force Field or Space Wolves „Stormcaller‟, for example), it needs to have at least 50% of its body physically obscured in order for it to claim a cover save [clarification].

Ah, then I stand corrected and informed.

That particular quote would also provide adequate justification to allow Shield of Sanguinius to work on vehicles.

Terminus wrote:Ah, then I stand corrected and informed.

That particular quote would also provide adequate justification to allow Shield of Sanguinius to work on vehicles.

What, an FAQ that likes to disguise Rules Changes as Clarifications?

RaW, it doesn't work on vehicles. If you don't like it, make a House Rule, but don't dare try and claim it's what the rules say.

The INAT FAQ has the Stormcaller Example Wrong, as Stormcaller doesn't work on Vehicles either.

But to answer the OP, I would take Wings and Might of Heros, and put him in a Pod as well.