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Hello Dakka!

From many, many postings here I got the impression that everyone and his dog loathe Flash Gitz. I accepted this as a fact, being comparatively new to 40k. However, I just looked over their codex entry again and a few things sparked my interest:

1. They have the nob statline with 'eavy armor. Exactly the same. 'eavy armor nobs are 25 points, flash gitz are 25 points. Same price!
2. So they are basically nobz, but instead of having a slugga they have this insane S5 AP X Assault 1 gun with in-built targeter. You lose one attack in CC, but you have a gun that can theoretically screw up MEQs and TEQs and MCs with a bit of luck. Is that SO bad?
3. For a little more points, you get double the shots and a higher strength. A kitted-out Flash Git costs 35-40 points, yeah, but people pay similar points for some of their diversified nobz in the big nob squads.

Sooo...can someone tell me why they are so hated? They are nobz with COOL guns (unreliable as they are, of course), a bit weaker in CC, a bit stronger in Dakka. Yeah, they use a heavy support slot, but apart from that this slot might be needed for other stuff I don't see the reason why they are taken so rarely. You can use them in the same way you use nobz, with the addition of actually being able to kill some stuff at range.

So, what do you think?

Though i dont have any gits yet I do plan to get them as I too love the idea of them...but by reading dakka as much as i have an using diversified nobs as much as i do i can tell you why they are not really used (not loathed...)

You have a shooty nob...Nobz are meant for getting in there and krumpin stuff not sitting back shooting...w BS 2 a one shot gun may MAY hit once per game...they lose an attack in CC which may or may not be a bad thing depending on how you use them...but the main thing is the lack of diversification...trick out your nobz right and it will take 11 unsaved wounds to them to remove a model (assuming no ID weapons)...add in a painboy and well you have a unit that is insanley hard to kill and dishes out some MEAN CC damage...the lack of klaws i think also hurts da gitz...

What you are paying for is a nob thtat really isnt doing what nobz do best...and paying pretty much the same price for it...that is why i think da gitz arent really used...

As I said I love em...theyll be a blast to convert when i get around to it...the gitz are one of the main reasons i started an ork army...but they are far from the best unit we have right now...

EDIT to add:
Also if you shoot at a squad that is just out of assault range (and you plan to assault it...) good shooting will kill those units in the front that you need to catch them in assault (provided your opponent knows what he is doing) this could be detrimental as well...I dont think i ever have my nobz shoot...unless i know they arent gonna catch anything anyway (skorchas being the only exception)

1. Those guns are 24", meaning that you have to get close to use them. Foot-slogging is asking to get templated. In a trukk they're going to get beaten up. In a battlewagon....that's a significant point increase to get them up the lines. And if you leave them in a transport, pretty much any glance is good enough to negate them. So they can't live in a transport.

2. STR5 APX. On average, that's AP3 or AP4. At.....BS2. So 5+ to hit, 3+ to wound against most things, and you can mostly expect cover saves at what you're shooting at in 5th edition. If you math-hammer out the cost of the flash gitz vs. the comparable points in a boyz unit (or a nob unit) that charges into combat ans assaults, flash gits are overwhelmed in terms of efficiency and what they get for their money.

3. Not to mention that Flash gitz take up a heavy support slot.....and those should be maxed out in most armies with battlewagons or killa-kans.

Is it just me, or are HS foot troops in general considered a dubious choice? Gitz, Devastators, Dark Reapers...Havocs get used, but they're in a weaker list...

It seems like in the "Age of Mech," it's better to use HS slots for tanks that combine heavy weapons with an armor value.

D'Ork wrote:Is it just me, or are HS foot troops in general considered a dubious choice? Gitz, Devastators, Dark Reapers...Havocs get used, but they're in a weaker list...

It seems like in the "Age of Mech," it's better to use HS slots for tanks that combine heavy weapons with an armor value.

No its just "Gitz, Devastators, Dark Reapers...Havocs" cost too many points for what they do. When they are cheap enough (see Long fangs) most people agree they're good. Also most heavy weapons units are static which is OK if you can deploy them somewhere good, however if you've got to move them then you've got at least 1 turn where they're doing nothing but moving (SM can normally DS turn1 in a drop pod but that's still a turn where they could be doing something better).

I have used my Flash Gitz in three games, and in each the accomplished exactly nothing. Same with Lootas and any big guns on Battlewagons. It's sluggaboyz, battlewagons with the minimum upgrades and nobs with powerclaws for me from now on!!!

Basically, gitz are WAY over-costed for what they do. Like you said, you're paying for a nob statline (built for close combat)... on a shooting unit... with BS2... and really expensive upgrades to get the gun useful. Add to that takes a heavy support slot (when they don't do the job of a heavy support slot), don't come with a transport (which means ANOTHER slot), and don't do much in small units (meaning either go very expensive or be ineffective AND risk fleeing the board on any Leadership test).

Basically, there's virtually no reason to take Gitz outside of fluff unless you enjoy throwing away points. For about the price of a maxed out Gitz squad (meaning, painboy, all gun upgrades), you can get 9 killa kans with rokkits that will outshoot them, out assault them, and provide screens for your boyz, or you can have 2 15-man loota squads that will annihilate whatever you point them at from 48" away.

Basically, there is nothing flash gitz can do that shoota boyz cannot do better. Shoota boyz can take more wounds, fire more shots (and, even without the AP, those more shots have more value in the cover-heavy 5th ed world), and hold objectives to boot.

Your 5 basic gitz cost you as much as 13 shoota boyz, plus a PK/bosspole nob.

5 gitz = 10 wounds.
Shootas = 15 wounds, plus bosspole to help with Ld.

The gitz, shooting at a marine out of cover, expect to see 1.66 hits, 1.11 wounds, and, factoring random AP, results in .75 dead marines.

The shoota boyz get 26 shots, expecting to see 8.66 hits, 4.33 wounds, and 1.44 dead marines - nearly twice what you get with the flash gitz.

As you add 'upgrades' to the gitz, these numbers don't change significantly.

More dakka is probably the most significant against infantry, as it doubles the results outright. 5 Flash Gitz with More Dakka get 1.5 dead marines.

Shootier gets you .92 dead marines, and both Shootier AND More Dakka nets you 1.85 dead marines (out of cover).

Of course these cost points too. Each upgrade buys the shoota boyz more shots. 17 Shoota boyz (with a bosspole/PK nob) for the price of 5 flash gitz with one upgrade will get you 1.88 dead marines (in or out of cover), and for the price of two-upgrade flash gitz, the shoota boyz are looking at 2.33 dead marines. At each of these point values, shoota boyz have a higher return on the investment.

They're not instant-killed by some weapons, you have to actually kill each boy. And 22 models that can hold objectives have massive advantages over 5 models that cannot.

There are some, rare, situations where flash gitz have an edge, but they're few and far between. Shooting at feel-no-pain plague marines, Flash Gitz get the edge because they have both the higher strength, and the potential to avoid the FNP save. But these rare situational advantages have to be weighed against the fact that they're not scoring, they're taking a slot that could be used by kans or wagons, and they're worse in almost every other way.

I think the real problem with them is that they are Nobs with guns. Nobs cost more than boyz because they're better at fighting. Higher S, I, A and W are characteristics of CC models, not shooting models. With Flash Gitz, you're paying the points for a CC statline in models designed to shoot, and with no potential for getting any CC upgrades. Furthermore, you're paying points to upgrade your CC models for shooting in an army thats worst stat is their BS. Just considering those things should tell you that this isn't the best use of points.

If they had more than the one model for them, I would use em. (Possibly even in tournaments) They wouldn't work in every list but maybe in a shooty ork list with SAG's and lootas backing them up.

GG

Shooting is a supporting role.
Combat does the drop kicking.

Shooting from them can at most kill...7 units.
Nobs that focus on combat can kill.... (the number of unit they can contact with multi-charges) x (number of turns in combat).

Combat is so much more powerful and destructive when geared for it...while Shooting is very limiting...hell: cover saves...

The major problem is that they do not fit in a slogging CC nor Mechanized list.

They have no transport of their own and take up that very valuable HS slot in a Mech list.

And a slogging CC list they simply are too specialized in shooting(no PK option) but still have that terrible Orky BS.

Finally in a Shooty list each basic Git costs as much as 4 Shoota Boyz(actually 1 point more) for only +6" and +1 Str(and random AP) When you buy 5 of them you can afford 20 Shoota Boyz with a Big Shoota who will put out a heck of a lot more shots and effectively have twice as many wounds. Start adding in upgrades to the snazzguns and you find even more Boyz can be brought to the table, along with the Nob and PK and more Big shootas.

In short shoota Boyz are more cost effective and perform much better than a unit of flash gitz.

P.S. in shooty lists I would rather bring some Big Gunz for High Str, low AP BS3 shots, which also fill those heavy support choices and are dirt cheap.

Thanks for all your answers! I see there are a lot of arguments against them. However, I noticed one thing: When arguing against Flash Gitz, everbody says "They're a shooting unit and bad at what they do". Well, what I tried to state in my entry post was, that I don't think you have to using as a mainly pure shooting unit. Use them for CC, like any other nob unit, and get those hard-hitting pre-assault shots in! I realize that their pure shooting is bad, but shooting combined with an orknob assault...I have yet to try it, but I think it might not be as bad as some of you have pictured it.

Of course, the disability to take PKs is a huge disadvantage over normal nobz, I grant you that.

Witzkatz wrote:Thanks for all your answers! I see there are a lot of arguments against them. However, I noticed one thing: When arguing against Flash Gitz, everbody says "They're a shooting unit and bad at what they do". Well, what I tried to state in my entry post was, that I don't think you have to using as a mainly pure shooting unit. Use them for CC, like any other nob unit, and get those hard-hitting pre-assault shots in! I realize that their pure shooting is bad, but shooting combined with an orknob assault...I have yet to try it, but I think it might not be as bad as some of you have pictured it.

Of course, the disability to take PKs is a huge disadvantage over normal nobz, I grant you that.

The problem is they are pretty much equipped to be a pure shooting unit...why assault with a shooting (or even hybrid shooter CC unit) when for the same price you can get a dedicated CC unit that will kill whatever it touches pretty much...and (for a small point investment) get the ability to assault by turn 2 and have the nifty nifty deff rolla run over things...

No power Klaw is another reason... possibly the most telling if you ask me, meaning the HAVE to shoot, a unit of 12 S.boys is essentially more effective than a unit of 10 Gitz in both CC and shooting because of this fact.

What Flash Gits need IMO is BS3.

Nobs that decide to focus on Dakka would at least get the basic concept of aiming so a bump in BS would be great. prehaps they would drop a CC attack to compansate instead of a points increase.

Grey Templar wrote:What Flash Gits need IMO is BS3.

If they had BS3 instead of the stupid targeter or at least had an upgrade that gave them BS3 they might of made it onto my shelves.

Grey Templar wrote:What Flash Gits need IMO is BS3.

Nobs that decide to focus on Dakka would at least get the basic concept of aiming so a bump in BS would be great. prehaps they would drop a CC attack to compansate instead of a points increase.

Agreed this would certainly make them more takable...this would be a better use for da gitfinda (one of the coolest names for a piece of wargear i know of!!)

Heck, if they didn't have a 1 shot weapon would greatly improve them.

I am also with the need BS3 crowd. I think if they dropped blasta(yea lets pay alot of points for a mini that will most likely kill himself on a gets hot roll...smart) and instead you had a 5pt +1 BS option they would be MANY times more effective.

I still take FlashGits, alot lately. Some games they are just average, and others they seriously crush units. The key with them are to make them anti troop, and not waste time shooting at transports or better. I take more dakka and shootier, so they cost 35 pts. Yes thats in the area of normal nobs(unless your the PK nob)

So if the game really matters, Id say use the heavy support slot for something a little more effective, otherwise, go crazy and take them. They are fun to convert and fun to play with. Who knows maybe someday Ill stumble on a tactic for them that makes then super hard asses

The main reasons units in 40k are deemed bad is because they're either

a) sufferring from an identity crisis that makes them okay at 2 jobs but not good at either

or

b) less efficient/good than another unit in the same codex at doing the same role.

Flashgitz sadly fall into both these categories.

they're a shooty/assault hybrid unit but Orks have straight out better anti-infantry shooting units (lootaz) and much better assault units (standard Nobz).

In fact orks even have a better unit at shooting/assault...Shoota boyz.

For equivalent pts shoota boyz outshoot flash gitz and out assault them Ow. Plus the boyz can be fearless sized, are scoring, can't be susceptible to instant death, can have a powerklaw, can have a bosspole and don't use up a Heavy slot.

About the only thing Flash Gitz have on Shoota boyz is that they outrange them a bit and potentially have better ap. The strength is outweighed by the more numerous shots the Shootaz get to fire and the ap is random and you have to catch a MEQ unit out in the open too. They also have Gitfindas which might be their saving grace and can have cybork bodies and FnP which mitigates the toughness issues a little bit.

The only real army I see them having a place in is a footslogging horde force. In such an army you have troop choices maxed out with both kinds of boy (and maybe screening grots), fast taken up by stormboyz (as a speedy p-klaw delivery system) and elites mostly lootaz giving covering fire and maybe a nobz mob.

In that force your heavy slots are a bit wasted really, adding any vehicles is just asking for your vehicles to die first as he uses all his anti-tank guns on your pathetic 3 tanks.

But The flashgitz could march behind the boyz giving covering fire and adding some decent cc capability in assault too. Essentially they'd be a sweeper wave, oving behind the main force. They lay down some firepower and either shoot or assault whatever your horde fails to kill in combat.

they'll get cover from all the boyz in front but unfortunately that means the enemy will usually get cover against their low ap shots. Still they might catch an enemy in the open and cover + eavy armour + FnP + as complex as you can make them (some have cybork, some have ammo runts is the best you can do) means they're fairly tough.

And in this fashion their gitfindas would be really useful to try and premeasure charges to work out if you need to use your waaagh or not. Plus they can help range find for shoota boys for similar reasons.


As for improving them? They need access to a bosspole, badly and to come with more dakka as standard (with the option of 3 shots being there) and possibly the wargear options to become fully complex.

They're nobs so they should never get BS3 they ... what they should get is a gun that's TL ...

BS 3 odds are 50% to hit
TL-BS 2 odds are 55.5% to hit

... it would also mean they could take the ... Plasma? (edit Blastas)... upgrade without having to worry about the gets hot rule (well not as much).

If they're going to keep all orks BS2 (and I think there's an argument to be had that orks should have differentiated statlines given the fluff that they are "pre-engineered" towards their job in life, but that's a digression...), twin-linking makes more sense. But, for this gen, Gitz are a "fluffy only" type unit and will probably get fixed next generation.

The main issue is the sheer expense if you want to make them any good.

A unit of 10 with Badrukk, a Painboy, and More Dakka can be hard to kill, and threaten most infantry either in shooting or in HTH, and do some damage to light vehicles... but it's probably the most points-inefficient unit in the Ork Codex.

Bravelybravesirrobin,

Very reasonably assessed.