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as the title says really. if you use the Inquisitors with Mystics or as cheap special weapon platforms, how do you replace them?
and for the record, i do usually use one.
replacing the special weapons won't be an issue really. but what do you do for losing the Mystics?
clearly set up can help with Deepstrikers. and the Astropath could help a little bit.
thoughts?

Well, I literally JUST got a model from a friend, so I might put him in a game or two. So I'm pretty used to not having their nice insurance.

I would recommend a OOTF, maybe, to keep people from Deepstriking due to fear of very delayed arrival, however, this won't really work against drop pods.

On a more important note, IG will soon have no psychic protection. What to do about that....no idea.

By growing a brain and figuring out how to use the most powerful codex in fifth edition?

Melissia: Blood Angels?

I have never run the Inq/Mystic unit in any of my guard lists and I have only lost a handful of games; none of those because of deepstrikers tearing me up.

And that does not mean I have not had Deepstrikers come at me I just Isolate and contain them.

No, it's still C:IG if you use it right. Blood Angels aren't actually that much more powerful than C:SM or C:SW.

Melissia wrote:By growing a brain and figuring out how to use the most powerful codex in fifth edition?

Thats pointlessly inflammatory and does nothing to contribute to the post.


On topic:

Im not sure an OoTF is the best alternative- it just tends to make the opponent appear later in the game- and all at once rather than spread out.

Spreading out, or bubble wrapping/ drop zone denial. Leave a sliver of the back table edge open- and watch them take the chance to scatter off entirely

Keeping mobile- mounted up IG are pretty formidable(as if I need to point it out). So you can move to keep your units with overlapping fields of fire- and ready to support a unit that might get stunned/shaken when its targeted by a deep striker.

Lack of psychic D might seem like a problem, but IG still has the strongest shooting in the game atm, and very few psychic powers can touch them out past 36" As long as they keep meched up, and stay mobile, they should be fine from psychic powers.

A fleet officer is going to be seen more often, as well as the guard themselves making more use of reserves I think.

starbomber109 wrote:Lack of psychic D might seem like a problem, but IG still has the strongest shooting in the game atm, and very few psychic powers can touch them out past 36" As long as they keep meched up, and stay mobile, they should be fine from psychic powers.

A fleet officer is going to be seen more often, as well as the guard themselves making more use of reserves I think.

Yeah, the loss of the hood can hurt- but most lists Ive seen skip the hood unless theyre using an Inq Lord with the Ld 10 upgrade. Talking to a freind about this we popped up vassal and played with some ideas.

Ideal IG deepstrike defense, minus the use of an Inq with mystics- seems to revolve around protecting the rear echelon ordanance units. The risk of scattering Ord templates into your own tanks can be pretty significant. So something is needed that can easily wipeout troops(many of which will be bunched up the turn after they land), flamers seem like a good idea. Keeping a mounted PCS with a laod of flamers, could provide some punch.

The other option, a BaneWolf. Its not going to hurt your vehicles if if your need to use it to sweep assualters off a stunned/shaken tank, and the 2+ poison with AP3 makes it a solid threat(albeit a rarely used one that is likely going to be underestimated). Keeping a 130 pt tank in reserve may only be worthwhile in larger games.

Those are both reactive measures (vs the active measures like spreading a blob platoon all over the table), and like anything in this game, is dependent on your opponents force and skill level.

Melissia wrote:By growing a brain and figuring out how to use the most powerful codex in fifth edition?

Wow! now that's some great advice!
oh how did Dakka survive prior to your arrival?!?!

@Misteress and Co.
thanks for the useful input. i have almost all of my list Mech at the moment. but it could affect the Hydras/Manticore choice. i've been kicking around the
idea of going all mobile and dumping them.

Melissia wrote:By growing a brain and figuring out how to use the most powerful codex in fifth edition?

Please read these rules. You may also benefit from reading this.

alarmingrick wrote:oh how did Dakka survive prior to your arrival?!?!

I don't know, but I'm certainly glad I got here when I did. Horrible things might have happened without my blessed presence.

Right. Moving right along.

Lack of psychic defense isn't really that big of a drawback when you're tossing templates around like confetti...

Melissia wrote:No, it's still C:IG if you use it right. Blood Angels aren't actually that much more powerful than C:SM or C:SW.

Because a horde of jump marines with FNP that have precision deep-strike with melta weapons is totally going to get blasted apart by the IG!!

I'm almost liable to say that BA was written to be a hard counter to mech IG. They have all the tools to deal with mass tanks, and DoA means that they have a real easy time getting an alpha strike with tons of melta weapons. You can pack every single weapon slot with anti-tank, and still deal with horde just fine in CC. It's a real beauty of a codex for sure.

If you think that 20 points per model is a horde, then you are sadly, possibly hilariously, mistaken.

When they're six times as tough as an ork...

As a tyranid player, I would rather play against BA than IG anyday. CC arrives much sooner, and while the battles are tougher it's better than getting shot to pieces for 3 turns.

Also, a single meltagun can totally destroy a tank in one shot. A 6-wound TMC needs to be hit and wounded (and fail cover saves from venomthropes) 6 times. I can jive with that.

Back to the topic, I play Tau so I have no DS defense. Honestly I keep my FW in transports & move 2 squads together.

That way, when an opponent Deep Strikes, 2 Fish move in, the FW get out & he soaks up 48 Str5 shots hitting on X (markerlights). Now that strategy isn't perfect for IG but it may provide a base for you to work on. remember, one of the best ways to kill marines is with weight of fire. (people will argue this night & day but to each their own)

willydstyle wrote:When they're six times as tough as an ork...

They aren't.

It's easier to wipe out a squad of 10 assault marines than a squad of thirty boyz. The boyz are cheaper.

Melissia wrote:If you think that 20 points per model is a horde, then you are sadly, possibly hilariously, mistaken.

He wasn't implying that BA can be a horde army. He was stating that they can handle themselves against a horde army. It is best to always read a thread and it's posts thoroughly before replying, to avoid appearing unintelligent.

They aren't.

It's easier to wipe out a squad of 10 assault marines than a squad of thirty boyz. The boyz are cheaper.

# bolter hits to kill an Ork: 2, or 4 (cover)
# bolter hits to kill a FNP Marine: 24

So Willydstyle was being generous and granting the Ork 4+ cover. Orks outside of cover are 1/12 as survivable as Marines.

This changes drastically when factoring S8/AP 2 or lower, but the obvious point is that FNP Marines are more or less immune to small arms fire.

And thirty Boyz should wipe a normal assault squad if they get the charge, which they shouldn't since AMs are significantly faster than even WAAAGH-ed Orks on average. But if 10 Marines with a Sang Priest get the charge off, they should easily kill about 10 while only losing ~2 to regular attacks and another 1 to the PKlaw. So at the end of the first assault, it's 7 Marines + Sang Priest versus 14 ork Boyz, and they win and run them down in the next assault phase. FNP is a huge advantage.

When allied Inq with mystics are gone there will be a reckoning. My daemons shall wreck havoc on those that dared fire on them in their own turn!

Gavo wrote:I would recommend a OOTF, maybe, to keep people from Deepstriking due to fear of very delayed arrival, however, this won't really work against drop pods.

Bubble wrap. IG have the best bubble wrap in the game, 5 point guys who can be Stubborn, Counter Attacking, Furious Charging, and/or LD 10, depending on what characters you put nearby and what wargear you give them. Not to mention how they can go to ground with 2+ cover saves and rapid fire their lasguns with 3 shots each. Bubble wrap can't stop deep strikers from coming down, but it can keep them out of 6" melta range.

On a more important note, IG will soon have no psychic protection. What to do about that....no idea.

That's a roflcopter if I ever heard one! When's the last time you heard of a psyker using powers with LD2? 3 PBS's can nerf 3 psykers per turn if they all use Weaken Resolve. Of course, Weaken Resolve has to get past the enemy's psychic defense, but it can and it will stop their powers if it does. To be sure, it sucks that you can't do anything about a deepstriking zoanthrope or blood angel psyker with Blood Lance, but you can't do everything perfectly with one army. That would make it a perfect army with no weaknesses, i.e. a really badly designed army.

sourclams wrote:# bolter hits to kill an Ork: 2, or 4 (cover)
# bolter hits to kill a FNP Marine: 24

So Willydstyle was being generous and granting the Ork 4+ cover. Orks outside of cover are 1/12 as survivable as Marines.

This changes drastically when factoring S8/AP 2 or lower, but the obvious point is that FNP Marines are more or less immune to small arms fire.

And it's not exactly hard to cram 60 of them into a list (as tough as 240 orks vs. small arms fire, counting cover, as Sourclams noted) and still have room for things like dreadnoughts, predators, etc.

When IG and inquisitors part ways, IG won't have access to psychic or deepstrike defense any more, and the game will shift even more towards BA. Right now, I think that both codices are fairly evenly matched, given the IG player has inquisitorial support. Once IG loses that, they'll still be a very solid book, but BA will have an edge over them.

Ixe wrote:[That's a roflcopter if I ever heard one! When's the last time you heard of a psyker using powers with LD2? 3 PBS's can nerf 3 psykers per turn if they all use Weaken Resolve. Of course, Weaken Resolve has to get past the enemy's psychic defense, but it can and it will stop their powers if it does. To be sure, it sucks that you can't do anything about a deepstriking zoanthrope or blood angel psyker with Blood Lance, but you can't do everything perfectly with one army. That would make it a perfect army with no weaknesses, i.e. a really badly designed army.

I'm pretty sure that PBS's weaken resolve only lasts until the end of the player turn.

gardeth wrote:

Ixe wrote:[That's a roflcopter if I ever heard one! When's the last time you heard of a psyker using powers with LD2? 3 PBS's can nerf 3 psykers per turn if they all use Weaken Resolve. Of course, Weaken Resolve has to get past the enemy's psychic defense, but it can and it will stop their powers if it does. To be sure, it sucks that you can't do anything about a deepstriking zoanthrope or blood angel psyker with Blood Lance, but you can't do everything perfectly with one army. That would make it a perfect army with no weaknesses, i.e. a really badly designed army.

I'm pretty sure that PBS's weaken resolve only lasts until the end of the player turn.

Gardeth is right.

Yeah PBS is best used for breaking squad mercilessly. Many times my opponents have screamed "Minus what! Nine? Minus nine?!". I even had an Ork player bosspole all his Orks, just trying to get snake eyes. (I had reduced the 30-man Ork squad to 10 with focused fire, then Weaken Resolve)

gardeth wrote:

Ixe wrote:[That's a roflcopter if I ever heard one! When's the last time you heard of a psyker using powers with LD2? 3 PBS's can nerf 3 psykers per turn if they all use Weaken Resolve. Of course, Weaken Resolve has to get past the enemy's psychic defense, but it can and it will stop their powers if it does. To be sure, it sucks that you can't do anything about a deepstriking zoanthrope or blood angel psyker with Blood Lance, but you can't do everything perfectly with one army. That would make it a perfect army with no weaknesses, i.e. a really badly designed army.

I'm pretty sure that PBS's weaken resolve only lasts until the end of the player turn.

ORLY!? Man, that's kind of lame then... But IG wouldn't be the only list without psychic defense, Orks also have nothing to protect them from psykers.

Yes, lyou can fit 60 assault marines into a list and still have points to spend-- but you can fit 180 Ork Boyz into a list and have even more points to spend. Though personally I'd rather have something like five dreads and four full boyz squads, supported by big meks with KFFs (4+ cover save on the dreads, fun times).

Smashotron wrote:He wasn't implying that BA can be a horde army. He was stating that they can handle themselves against a horde army. It is best to always read a thread and it's posts thoroughly before replying, to avoid appearing unintelligent.

"A horde of" does not indicate that they are good against hordes. Learn reading comprehension before trying to claim other people need to read, thank you.

60 is a "horde of" MEQs.

alarmingrick wrote:
@Misteress and Co.
thanks for the useful input. i have almost all of my list Mech at the moment. but it could affect the Hydras/Manticore choice. i've been kicking around the
idea of going all mobile and dumping them.

If you use an OoTF (or even two!!) your manticores might be bale to safely unleash their payload before your opponent makes his reserves rolls. Not having the missiles makes them lower priority and theyre free to scoot around and be a nuisance. Probly gonna be ignored in favor of higher value targets and might be a safe way to preserve thier KP's.

Smashotron wrote:60 is a "horde of" MEQs.

*imitates gameshow host*
Congratulations, you just proved your entire previous argument completely and utterly wrong! What are you going to do now?

But seriously, 60 models is hardly "horde"... by that definition, practically every army can be "horde", making the distinction worthless...