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Melissia wrote:Yes, lyou can fit 60 assault marines into a list and still have points to spend-- but you can fit 180 Ork Boyz into a list and have even more points to spend. Though personally I'd rather have something like five dreads and four full boyz squads, supported by big meks with KFFs (4+ cover save on the dreads, fun times).

Smashotron wrote:He wasn't implying that BA can be a horde army. He was stating that they can handle themselves against a horde army. It is best to always read a thread and it's posts thoroughly before replying, to avoid appearing unintelligent.

"A horde of" does not indicate that they are good against hordes. Learn reading comprehension before trying to claim other people need to read, thank you.

Wow way not to be inflamatory. [sarcasm/]
Thats two threads sullied.
Another good use of the ignore button!!
May your banning be swift.

On-topic:
OP what is your meta of armys?
What deepstrikers do you find the most difficult to shift/aviod?

Melissia wrote:By growing a brain and figuring out how to use the most powerful codex in fifth edition?

While a bit on the meaner side, the comment does have its merits.

Yes, having Inquix allies is nice. Especially against CD, Deepstrikers, and Casters, but tbh, it was a broken ability on an already broken list.

Now if you are worried about deepstrikers, make yourself a corner-rape deployment, while it leaves a large open area for guys to deep strike in, it also leaves them open to TONS of shooting, outflanking is a bit of an issue here, but if you have second deployment, your opponent HAS to notify you of outflankers (which yes, I understand, is contradictive of the actual use of Outflanking... such is W40K) so you can prepare accordingly. The lack of Spell Defense is countered by the sheer might of your offense, and as it stands, barring Daemon-Princes I am finding it hard to make a list of 5 Psykers with Eternal Warrior currently in existance... Hit them with a Demo-Shell or worse, Storm-Eagle cheapness. But again, its not something you will need to consider for a bit, so enjoy your additional ability to be over-powered while it lasts I guess... (our IG player stopped the Mystic cheapness after the first use, as he realised that while winning is "fun", winning with Skill over "a better book" is actually much more fun)

As for BA vs IG. IG is still better hands down. BA has some crazy stuff, and alot of it will SURPRISE someone, but after the first game, you can easily predict a BA players moves, and thier ability flat-lines rather quickly... Death Company are one of the easier things in the Dex to deal with... especially as IG. (as you can easily have more battle-cannons on the board then they have DC)

That's right! There is an ignore button. Thanks for the reminder, VikingScott.

OT: I usually don't take Mystics but when I do, it's against my friends Daemons. Without Mystics, Bloodcrushers will really be an item I will have a good hard fight against. Without the early demolisher shots, they'll be harder to crush before they reach my lines.

Melissia wrote:

Smashotron wrote:60 is a "horde of" MEQs.

*imitates gameshow host*
Congratulations, you just proved your entire previous argument completely and utterly wrong! What are you going to do now?

From dictionary.com:

1.
a large group, multitude, number, etc.; a mass or crowd: a horde of tourists.

It does not specify any specific number. 60 FNP marines is a lot of marines, it can easily be considered a horde. When backed properly it would also demolish a 180 boyz list, regardless of what those boyz are backed by.

Bubblewrap with your infantry! Meltaguns aren't much good if you don't land with 6", and they're useless if you're 12" away.

And, IG can even bubblewrap with multiple layers of 10-man infantry squads. So, sure, one or two might get shot up (and/or assaulted) by the DS'ers. And then the ordnance will make they cry like they just had their nose hairs yanked out with needlenose pliers.

Fear not brothers of the IG, we can still get hoods from our sisters at arms. . We will loose the mystics but we can still pull inquisitors from the SoB's.

dietrich wrote:Bubblewrap with your infantry! Meltaguns aren't much good if you don't land with 6", and they're useless if you're 12" away.

And, IG can even bubblewrap with multiple layers of 10-man infantry squads. So, sure, one or two might get shot up (and/or assaulted) by the DS'ers. And then the ordnance will make they cry like they just had their nose hairs yanked out with needlenose pliers.

This is actual good tactical advice. Unlike what *some* people have been posting in the thread.

Sacrificing scoring units to protect your tanks from deepstriking meltas is definitely a viable tactic, but you have to decide whether it's worth reducing your capability to capture objectives in order to protect your firepower.

willydstyle wrote:

It does not specify any specific number. 60 FNP marines is a lot of marines, it can easily be considered a horde. When backed properly it would also demolish a 180 boyz list, regardless of what those boyz are backed by.

I certainly hope you are taking Astorath, or your list is illegal, sans the fact that you are spending 1425(Astorath is 225 rite?) points on this, using at least 2 troops slots, and thats before upgrades 0_0...

1425 points(before upgrades) is ALOT of points to spend on marines that go bye-bye with a few Demo-Shells...

Sanguiney (don't care about sp) preist guys give FNP bubbles

But then, if you have ten scoring squads, you can stand to lose a few.

Yep ^
Target prioty will be an issue for the opponent.
They won't know which squad to hurt 1st

But at the same time, even "normal" mech IG lists tend to have 5 scoring units with at least 2 squads of platoon infantry; 20 men can can be sacrificed while still leaving you with 3 other objective holders.

I think this will be the meta-shift post-mystical defense; more emphasis dedicated to the bubblewrap squads (at minimal expense within the overall list, drop an Inq Lord with Hood and his retinue and you've shaved enough points for almost another 30 basic guardsmen) with perhaps Straken and Pfist sarges/Commissars becoming more popular to give the 'Wrap teeth. There's no elite DS army (save perhaps Daemons) that wants to plunk down multiple 150 point squads to kill 10 Guardsmen and suicide. The gain/loss ratio is too high.

Melissia wrote:-- but you can fit 180 Ork Boyz into a list and have even more points to spend.

That's only what? 1500 points for 6 x 30-boy mobz. Leaves plenty of points in any list 1750 on up.

As to what I'll do when/if I can no longer use an Inquisitor? Dunno. I'll worry about it when it happens. Take more IG stuff, I guess.............

A 55 member platoon (with six scoring units), is only 280 points, and can protect anything you want to protect with sheer body count.

Melissia wrote:

willydstyle wrote:When they're six times as tough as an ork...

They aren't.

It's easier to wipe out a squad of 10 assault marines than a squad of thirty boyz. The boyz are cheaper.

i think the boyz need a nerf then or the SM a boost because that's absolute crap. If they are cheaper then why are they almost as good as an SM? and 30 per squad is a bit much imo but hey who cares about balance or anything?

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

willydstyle wrote:When they're six times as tough as an ork...

They aren't.

It's easier to wipe out a squad of 10 assault marines than a squad of thirty boyz. The boyz are cheaper.

i think the boyz need a nerf then or the SM a boost because that's absolute crap. If they are cheaper then why are they almost as good as an SM? and 30 per squad is a bit much imo but hey who cares about balance or anything?

GW and 'balance' don't go in the same sentace unless there is the prefix un-

VikingScott wrote:Sanguiney (don't care about sp) preist guys give FNP bubbles

Spriests can be picked out in melee, if killed at higher init, the squad loses FNP. You are also still spending an insane amount of points to do this.

"i think the boyz need a nerf then or the SM a boost because that's absolute crap. If they are cheaper then why are they almost as good as an SM? and 30 per squad is a bit much imo but hey who cares about balance or anything?"

You are forgetting that the SMs have better Armor, Shooty, Vehicles, Special Rules, Init, Statlines, the list goes on.

I think her point was, 10 SMs are easier to kill with a template then 30 orks, if the template killed 10 from each of those groups. One group is gone (the SM) the other still has 66% of its original number (the orks).

To say that "Something other then space marines needs a nerf because space marines aren't better then them, and that means they are not balanced" is kinda funny, as it assumes that in order for something to be balanced, it must be WORSE then the marine equivalent...


Hell, if I shoot a lascannon at a LRC I have a chance to destroy it in one shot yeilding me 250pts worth of a kill. Take that same lascannon shot at a unit of Conscripts, only 1 dies, so you get 2 pts.

2pts < 250pts does that mean we should nerf conscripts and buff LRCs?

Correct, because quite frankly why would I want to kill Orks without templates?

I love how people that have no useful suggestions, will make posts and try to act useful. People come here to share ideas- not be called brainless for asking others to share those ideas.

Could we get things back on topic? Debating semantics of 'hordes' and how FNP bubbles work does nothing to contribute to the original post.

We WERE on topic. For example:

Melissia wrote:A 55 member platoon (with six scoring units), is only 280 points, and can protect anything you want to protect with sheer body count.

... discussing using large numbers of Guardsmen to block close combat attacks on vehicles and generally make deep striking a pain. It takes a lot of work (in painting I mean), but it's quite effective against assaulty armies. Just let a squad be wiped out, and that assaulter squad is ready to be rapid fired with FRFSRF...

Imperial Guard will be just fine without the mystics. Around here a lot of tournaments have the DH/WH allies banned already and the IG still do very, very well. The IG still has about twice as many heavy weapons and special weapons and nearly twice as many vehicles per army as most of their opponents.

My BA list at 2K has 11 tanks and 33 heavy/special weapons (granted I got Mephiston and Corbulo in there too and so obviously an assault element) while the number for IG at 2K pts would be 17 tanks and 65 heavy/special weapons. It's an atrocious number. At 3K pts I'd have 22 tanks and 90 heavy/special weapons. A mystic bubble won't make or break this codex. It's a crutch and those who fall because someone took the crutch away just have to find a way to stand without it.

Or fall on their face while we laugh at them. Either way works for me.

I only use =I= allies when I'm bored, in bigger games, or to give my friends a super tough list to test their tournament builds against.

While having DSing defense and Psychic defense would be nice, I choose not to use those units when I play my IG. I know they are going the way of the dodo, so I might as well pretend they don't exist. I haven't had any trouble winning games without them.

Judicious use of reserves is the IG's key for anti DSing. Psychic powers you deal with like anything else. You kill the model wielding them as fast as you can.

CaptKaruthors wrote:I only use =I= allies when I'm bored, in bigger games, or to give my friends a super tough list to test their tournament builds against.

While having DSing defense and Psychic defense would be nice, I choose not to use those units when I play my IG. I know they are going the way of the dodo, so I might as well pretend they don't exist. I haven't had any trouble winning games without them.

Judicious use of reserves is the IG's key for anti DSing. Psychic powers you deal with like anything else. You kill the model wielding them as fast as you can.

Yep- no use in relying on a crutch thats going to be taken away in the near future(theoretically at least- new codexes often miss thier reserves rolls!).

Although I would like the option of being able to take Imperial assassins, just for the contrast of something thats not a large squad or tank.

I'd be careful using Masters of the Fleet to delay deepstrikers and other reserves, especially against MEQ armies.

I enjoy facing IG aries with that little guy in there, because it leaves me safe from shooting for an extra turn or two, especially in an Objective game.
The more you move your troops aruond on the table to grab objectives or create fire lanes, the more divided your force becomes. Blood Angels love that junk, with their d6" scattering meltaguns/infernus pistols, flamers, etc.
My bikers really love being delayed. They can turbo-boost late in the game to grab objectives, and the IG player has less time to kill them off.

Of course, this thread was about deepstrikers, so I won't go any further into the biker route.

IMO, an IG army wants their opponent to show up SOONER, rather than later. This gives you more turns to apply the plethora of High-S, long-ranged weaponry to them. With the poor BS of Guard armies, you want as many chances to inflict casualties as you can.

Bubble wrap is going to be the tactic of choice now. Cheap, expendable troops in the form of Infantry Squads that you can blob or split as needed based on the mission and the opponent. Sure, deepstrikign flamers will chew them up, but you should have so many of these bubble wrappers that a single deepstriking Terminator unit with Heavy Flamer, or jump packer squad with flamers will be nicely clustered for the Russ you had wrapped up to land a big, fat pie plate on them.

This is one of the things I love abotu this game, it's constantly evolving. Folks are adapting new tactics to deal with new armies every day, and it's awesome!

VikingScott wrote: On-topic:
OP what is your meta of armys?
What deepstrikers do you find the most difficult to shift/aviod?

Chaos and SM. but i love the =I= Lord with the Hood just to pissoff my friend who's all about Eldrad!
watching him fail his rolls against me with the hood is too good.

Does the primaris psyker give any psykic defence?

Nope. The Primaris Psyker is very poorly designed, and quite frankly not representative of primaris psykers in the fluff.

Ok i didn't know that. i don't have a guard 'dex.
I should have guessed they didn't otherwise they would have been mentioned already.

TheRhino wrote:I'd be careful using Masters of the Fleet to delay deepstrikers and other reserves, especially against MEQ armies.

I enjoy facing IG aries with that little guy in there, because it leaves me safe from shooting for an extra turn or two, especially in an Objective game.

IMO, an IG army wants their opponent to show up SOONER, rather than later. This gives you more turns to apply the plethora of High-S, long-ranged weaponry to them. With the poor BS of Guard armies, you want as many chances to inflict casualties as you can.

This is one of the things I love abotu this game, it's constantly evolving. Folks are adapting new tactics to deal with new armies every day, and it's awesome!

I would argue against that. The fact that the reserves roll becomes more difficult means that it's more likely that just one or two things come on at a time. I'll happily deal with 33% of your outflankers at a time as opposed to 50%. I do agree that the game is constantly evolving though.