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I just got the latest issue of White Dwarf! I saw the Spearhead articale and it made me realized my SM army needs more tanks! Any suggestions??

Heavy Support:

Vindicator

Vindicator

Vindicator

I like Inq. Syphonious idea....

Are you sure? I mean, the Vindicator has a great weapon, but its range is terrible! I need more varity! A all Vindicator Heavy Support Choice would be great in Cities of Death, but im talking about reglar 40k and Spearhead!

Meh, the deployment could be a little fickle with ya, though I have 3 vindicators as standard for any match 1,000 and up. Normal 40k, the 24" range is good enough with a decent deployment, only times I have been screwed over by their range was in dawn of war, and even if they only get a turn or two of shooting, they make enough of a dent in the enemy army to make it into my list.

Also, why do you need variety? Most of the space marine heavy support options suck, the exception being dreadnoughts and redeemers.

I just got a predator with an autocannon and two lascannons and it works amazingly well.

It lacks the strength to deal with the heaviest tanks or the volume of fire to kill hordes, but it is perfect for enemy transports between AV 10 and 12. It can also engage enemy heavy weapons teams that would normally be out of range, and a platform like this is pretty much mandatory against mechanized Eldar.

Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

camboyaz wrote: Are you sure? I mean, the Vindicator has a great weapon, but its range is terrible! I need more varity! A all Vindicator Heavy Support Choice would be great in Cities of Death, but im talking about reglar 40k and Spearhead!

Take them as a Armoured Spearhead, +5 cover save, and then can move cruising speed and still shoot.

thebetter1 wrote:I just got a predator with an autocannon and two lascannons and it works amazingly well.

It lacks the strength to deal with the heaviest tanks or the volume of fire to kill hordes, but it is perfect for enemy transports between AV 10 and 12. It can also engage enemy heavy weapons teams that would normally be out of range, and a platform like this is pretty much mandatory against mechanized Eldar.

Ok, vindicator is better against any kind of armor, and the best weapon in the game against monoliths. It's not mandatory against mechanized eldar, alot of tactical squads are for them!

camboyaz wrote:Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

Bad bad bad!



I would say if anything, two vindicators and one predator, I would also like to direct you to vassal (40k online for free, many dakkites frequently play matches on vassal), incase you didn't want to spend money, then find out that you should have bought three vindicators after all!

3 vindicators gets my vote.

Also, predator set-up would be optimal like this: autocannon, las sponson, las sponson; YMMV though.

Good luck whichever way you choose!

I prefer dreadnoughts myself. I almost always bring 3 heavy support dreads with no upgrades. This is 120pts cheaper than the vindicator spam and I would take the multimelta over any weapon if I was hunting tanks. the vindicators have the natural advantage of using templates but if you dont have issues with your opponent outnumbering you then the templates are fun to watch scatter everywhere. Not to mention, there are lotsa units you don't want to be in combat with like howling banshees and...and other dreadnoughts witch your 105pt walking tank can easily destroy, or usually at least slow down.

infamousxiii wrote:I prefer dreadnoughts myself. I almost always bring 3 heavy support dreads with no upgrades. This is 120pts cheaper than the vindicator spam and I would take the multimelta over any weapon if I was hunting tanks. the vindicators have the natural advantage of using templates but if you dont have issues with your opponent outnumbering you then the templates are fun to watch scatter everywhere. Not to mention, there are lotsa units you don't want to be in combat with like howling banshees and...and other dreadnoughts witch your 105pt walking tank can easily destroy, or usually at least slow down.

Ok, there are quite a few things... wrong with this:

You need a MoTF for this, which is a large point sink in larger games.

Also wrong, it costs 30 points less.

I don't want to be in combat with S3 infantry models...?

Dreadnoughts get eaten by vindicators, either a MM, needing to be within 12" to reliably kill me? Or the vindicator, that can kill at 24" as well as 1"?

I fail to see why the dreadnought is a better heavy support choice.

I forgot to mention i play BA. My force organization simply allows me to take 3 heavy support dreads. Dreads are 105, my vindicators are 145, that's a 40 point difference (i think, it IS late). chances are, my vindicators are more expensive because they count as fast vehicles. I was not aware of a difference in point value from book to book.

I'm not trying to be mean I_S, but players like you are why dreadnoughts work out better, for me anyways. You would shoot your vindicator at a throw away dreadnought and probably not even hit it, if you scatter even 1" in the wrong direction your attack is at half str, this is because of the slimmer profile on the dread. vindicators have fa 13, i probably wouldnt even shoot at it until i got within 12 (i would actually prolly ram it with a baal predator, also a fast tank), i would much sooner just pump the multimelta into a unit of troops just to overkill the one model.

Even still, you may actually hit the dreadnought with your big template and may actually kill it, i like my odds. but at least you shot at one of my 5 dreadnoughts on the field instead of an assault squad or some terminators that cost a lot more points and are harder to replace.

infamousxiii wrote:I forgot to mention i play BA. My force organization simply allows me to take 3 heavy support dreads. Dreads are 105, my vindicators are 145, that's a 40 point difference (i think, it IS late). chances are, my vindicators are more expensive because they count as fast vehicles. I was not aware of a difference in point value from book to book.

I'm not trying to be mean I_S, but players like you are why dreadnoughts work out better, for me anyways. You would shoot your vindicator at a throw away dreadnought and probably not even hit it, if you scatter even 1" in the wrong direction your attack is at half str, this is because of the slimmer profile on the dread. vindicators have fa 13, i probably wouldnt even shoot at it until i got within 12 (i would actually prolly ram it with a baal predator, also a fast tank), i would much sooner just pump the multimelta into a unit of troops just to overkill the one model.

Even still, you may actually hit the dreadnought with your big template and may actually kill it, i like my odds. but at least you shot at one of my 5 dreadnoughts on the field instead of an assault squad or some terminators that cost a lot more points and are harder to replace.

Alright, fast is good, though I wouldn't pay 30 points for it.

"Players like me"...

No, 1" is still mostly on the base.

Baal Predators have no part in this discussion, because then I would say, "then I have unit X to beat them", then you would use "oh yeah, I have unit Y!!!"

3 dreadnoughts vs 3 vindicators, vindicators win.

You say it as if my vindicator has a slim to none chance of landing on the dreadnought, which is far from the truth.

If you had terminators marching across the field... why in gods name would I be shooting at the dreadnoughts with my vindicators?

Vindicators can take out a greater range of enemies, be it tank, infantry, TEQ's.

Vindicators are a better heavy support option, hell, they're better than dreadnoughts, period.

Just saw the may actually kill it, I roll 2d6, take the highest, and add 10.

camboyaz wrote:Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

Your predator build is the worst possible.

You never take a TL-Lascannon and heavy bolters. If you shoot at tanks, the HB's are wasted. If you shoot at hordes or MEQ, the lascannon is wasted.

Either go Autocannon+Lascannon Sponsons, or Autocannon + HB's, for armor and hordes respectively.

two land raiders, three preditors and thwo whirlwinds, should do the job

tormented90 wrote:two land raiders, three preditors and thwo whirlwinds, should do the job

Whirlwinds = fail

Generally yes they do. I've seen them used well though.

I'd replace them with Vindicators though.

Also for the before Dread vs Vindi fight. Vindi wins unless the Dread Drop Pods in next to it and survives long enough to fight it in melee. I generally prefer Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer compaired to the Multi-Melta. But then again I use them to support troops and not run off by themselves

Although I no longer play marines now. Screaming bald guys in bright armour got boring.

General_Chaos wrote:

camboyaz wrote: Are you sure? I mean, the Vindicator has a great weapon, but its range is terrible! I need more varity! A all Vindicator Heavy Support Choice would be great in Cities of Death, but im talking about reglar 40k and Spearhead!

Take them as a Armoured Spearhead, +5 cover save, and then can move cruising speed and still shoot.

That is a great idea! THX!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karon wrote:

camboyaz wrote:Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

Your predator build is the worst possible.

You never take a TL-Lascannon and heavy bolters. If you shoot at tanks, the HB's are wasted. If you shoot at hordes or MEQ, the lascannon is wasted.

Either go Autocannon+Lascannon Sponsons, or Autocannon + HB's, for armor and hordes respectively.

U know what ? I only have 1 Predator of that build and so far its helped me ALOT! The lascannons can easlily take out my friends Battlewagon or I can focas on his Nobs and Trukks! I is kinda wastd against all of his boyz, but thats where my Scouts with snipers come in to stop there advance!

camboyaz wrote:

Karon wrote:

camboyaz wrote:Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

Your predator build is the worst possible.

You never take a TL-Lascannon and heavy bolters. If you shoot at tanks, the HB's are wasted. If you shoot at hordes or MEQ, the lascannon is wasted.

Either go Autocannon+Lascannon Sponsons, or Autocannon + HB's, for armor and hordes respectively.

U know what ? I only have 1 Predator of that build and so far its helped me ALOT! The lascannons can easlily take out my friends Battlewagon or I can focas on his Nobs and Trukks! I is kinda wastd against all of his boyz, but thats where my Scouts with snipers come in to stop there advance!

It works out for you, but on average you'd nearly always be better with the AC/LC or the AC/HB builds instead. Also scouts with snipers, unless you play thousand point or less games, tend to be underwhelming. So, unless you only play small games, and even then as snipers versus orks are really only good for lulz, just be glad your friend hasn't figured out how to play a hard ork list yet.

Norade wrote:

camboyaz wrote:

Karon wrote:

camboyaz wrote:Thats kinda true, the average Land Raider is lacking, but predators are ok and one with a lascannon and Heavy bolters only costs 130! It also has many other options. Im thinking 1 Vindicator and 2 Predators!

Your predator build is the worst possible.

You never take a TL-Lascannon and heavy bolters. If you shoot at tanks, the HB's are wasted. If you shoot at hordes or MEQ, the lascannon is wasted.

Either go Autocannon+Lascannon Sponsons, or Autocannon + HB's, for armor and hordes respectively.

U know what ? I only have 1 Predator of that build and so far its helped me ALOT! The lascannons can easlily take out my friends Battlewagon or I can focas on his Nobs and Trukks! I is kinda wastd against all of his boyz, but thats where my Scouts with snipers come in to stop there advance!

It works out for you, but on average you'd nearly always be better with the AC/LC or the AC/HB builds instead. Also scouts with snipers, unless you play thousand point or less games, tend to be underwhelming. So, unless you only play small games, and even then as snipers versus orks are really only good for lulz, just be glad your friend hasn't figured out how to play a hard ork list yet.

Thats also true Scouts are underwheming, but Snipers ar Pinning and with a average orks leadership, theres a good chance they wont be going anywhere! Also I play 1500-1750 point games!

Then he was a fool to not take advantage of the Mob rule.

He does but some times he transports them in Trukks and after im done with my shooting theres 8 so he cant.

@Inquisitor_S

I may be entirely mistaken, but if you put a template on top of my dreadnought, and it scatters even a little, the hole of the template would no longer be actually on the dreadnought itself. It would be over the base, but I'm pretty sure the blast is 1/2 str if its not actually on the hull of my dread. I know this is the case for vehicles and there may be an exception for walkers that i haven't seen or run into yet. So when i make it sound like you have a slim chance of killing a dread with a vindicator its because you have to not scatter, witch is okay but not great odds after BS is factored in to do any real damage. In my head i see it working out maybe 50/50.

I would take 3 dreads over 3 vindicators any day. UNLESS i played in an area that had an abnormal number of swarm armies(and for some reason my gobs of assault marines with fnp couldnt handle) witch camboyaz didn't mention in his starting post.

You wanna mech up.

This means rhinos and razorbacks for all marine units in your army. This gives you more mobility and
survivability, all for 35pts per squad.

I don't think Vindicatiors are good without another close range big thread like a TH/SS squad in a LR or a bike command squad.

The Autocannon/HB Predator is cheap and durable and works with just about any list.

infamousxiii wrote:@Inquisitor_S

I may be entirely mistaken, but if you put a template on top of my dreadnought, and it scatters even a little, the hole of the template would no longer be actually on the dreadnought itself. It would be over the base, but I'm pretty sure the blast is 1/2 str if its not actually on the hull of my dread. I know this is the case for vehicles and there may be an exception for walkers that i haven't seen or run into yet. So when i make it sound like you have a slim chance of killing a dread with a vindicator its because you have to not scatter, witch is okay but not great odds after BS is factored in to do any real damage. In my head i see it working out maybe 50/50.

I would take 3 dreads over 3 vindicators any day. UNLESS i played in an area that had an abnormal number of swarm armies(and for some reason my gobs of assault marines with fnp couldnt handle) witch camboyaz didn't mention in his starting post.

Is your 1" 1+1/2"?

Ok, and I would stomp you with my three vindicators.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

infamousxiii wrote:@Inquisitor_S

I may be entirely mistaken, but if you put a template on top of my dreadnought, and it scatters even a little, the hole of the template would no longer be actually on the dreadnought itself. It would be over the base, but I'm pretty sure the blast is 1/2 str if its not actually on the hull of my dread. I know this is the case for vehicles and there may be an exception for walkers that i haven't seen or run into yet. So when i make it sound like you have a slim chance of killing a dread with a vindicator its because you have to not scatter, witch is okay but not great odds after BS is factored in to do any real damage. In my head i see it working out maybe 50/50.

I would take 3 dreads over 3 vindicators any day. UNLESS i played in an area that had an abnormal number of swarm armies(and for some reason my gobs of assault marines with fnp couldnt handle) witch camboyaz didn't mention in his starting post.

Is your 1" 1+1/2"?

Ok, and I would stomp you with my three vindicators.

And my friend would stop you with his stompa. Come on! Stop fighting! Now im thinking about getting a
Dread and a Vindicator because those so far have gottin a lot of good feedback. I dont know why everyone hates the twin linked lascannon on the Preditor, it works fine for me!

A twin-linked lascannon is a good gun, though it is not known for being economical...

Vindicator.

Predators and more Predators. I run 4 las/plas Razorbacks, 3 AsC/HB Baals and 3 AC/LC Predators at the standard points limits, and add 2 more Razors and two Lib Furiosos when points go up.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:A twin-linked lascannon is a good gun, though it is not known for being economical...

Vindicator.

You know I think you should write a whole articale on Vindicators and how to use them well.

vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.