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kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

Thank you. =P

I might write up an article...

kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

You guys are idiots, comparing a dreadnought to a Vindicator? They are completely different animals. They are not even in the same FOC slot, I can understand a Predator vs. Vindicator.

I back razorback spam, even with just HB's on them their relatively cheap and still get the job done, throw a HK in if you want a little more anti armor.

When i used to run predators i would use sponson lascannons and leave the turret as an autocannon, but it was all about points to me, i suppose if you dont use sponsons or use HB spawnsons then a lascannon turret wouldn't be out of place. I just wouldn't sink points for a 3 lascannon tank.

@general chaos

I mentioned dreadnoughts because i play BA and i didn't realize there were point differences and force organization differences between my chapter specific codex and the nilla marine codex.

General_Chaos wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

You guys are idiots, comparing a dreadnought to a Vindicator? They are completely different animals. They are not even in the same FOC slot, I can understand a Predator vs. Vindicator.

I am an idiot because I believe one unit is better than the other? Different? Yes. Both on topic? Yes. The OP wanted opinion on tanks, infamous brought up that BA got dreads as HS, as well as vindicators.

So, idiot, read all of the posts before posting something like that jackwipe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

infamousxiii wrote:I back razorback spam, even with just HB's on them their relatively cheap and still get the job done, throw a HK in if you want a little more anti armor.

When i used to run predators i would use sponson lascannons and leave the turret as an autocannon, but it was all about points to me, i suppose if you dont use sponsons or use HB spawnsons then a lascannon turret wouldn't be out of place. I just wouldn't sink points for a 3 lascannon tank.

Meh, I too am a sucker for razorback spam.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

I am an idiot because I believe one unit is better than the other? Different? Yes. Both on topic? Yes. The OP wanted opinion on tanks, infamous brought up that BA got dreads as HS, as well as vindicators.

So, idiot, read all of the posts before posting something like that jackwipe.

OP stated he wanted Tanks.... OP stated he plays Space Marines.... read all the posts? Try reading the OP

General_Chaos wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

I am an idiot because I believe one unit is better than the other? Different? Yes. Both on topic? Yes. The OP wanted opinion on tanks, infamous brought up that BA got dreads as HS, as well as vindicators.

So, idiot, read all of the posts before posting something like that jackwipe.

OP stated he wanted Tanks.... OP stated he plays Space Marines.... read all the posts? Try reading the OP

God you're an idiot.

General_Chaos wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

You guys are idiots, comparing a dreadnought to a Vindicator? They are completely different animals. They are not even in the same FOC slot, I can understand a Predator vs. Vindicator.

Hey idiot, why dont you read the entire topic before posting. If you did you would know why we were talking about dreads, and wouldnt look like such a slowed tool.

kill dem stunties wrote:Hey idiot, why dont you read the entire topic before posting. If you did you would know why we were talking about dreads, and wouldnt look like such a slowed tool.

The only reason your talking about dreadnoughts is because a Blood Angel player mistakenly thought all dreads are heavy support. Comparing dreads to vindicators is like comparing Terminators to Scouts. They have different roles.

Maybe if you explained why a Vindicator is better than a dreadnought instead of posting "Vindicators > Dread!!!11!!!yay!!1" then you might be having an intelligent conversation

General_Chaos wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Hey idiot, why dont you read the entire topic before posting. If you did you would know why we were talking about dreads, and wouldnt look like such a slowed tool.

The only reason your talking about dreadnoughts is because a Blood Angel player mistakenly thought all dreads are heavy support. Comparing dreads to vindicators is like comparing Terminators to Scouts. They have different roles.

Maybe if you explained why a Vindicator is better than a dreadnought instead of posting "Vindicators > Dread!!!11!!!yay!!1" then you might be having an intelligent conversation

I did you dumb feth wipe. We debated. Also, blood angel's dreadnoughts do count as heavy support.

Terminators vs scouts is an idiotic comparison.

Our vehicles are:

Similar in role depending on dread varient.

Similar costs.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote: Also, blood angel's dreadnoughts do count as heavy support.

Try re-reading my post and apply some reading comprehension

But first off, I apologize for calling you guys idiots that was uncalled for but..

Terminators vs scouts is an idiotic comparison.

Same a dread vs. vindicator. You're talking about a tank vs. a walker, your talking about assaulting vs. ...tank shocking? your talking about cruising speed vs. running? Deploying vs. drop podding? It's apples and oranges.

Ok, the OP still decided that he was convinced by dreadnoughts, and was going to try one.

They still have very similar roles.

Exactly, long range fire support, whereas the dread can be versatile and drop melta.

kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

Depends, dreads can tarpit units that you don't want to deal with for a while in CC, something which a vindi can't. In the end though I'd say that the AC/LC pred is your best bet for gun cpability (remember it CAN bring lots of long range waepons to lists that may have to otherwise rely on getting really close to your enemy).

braindeadmonkey wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:vindis > dreads.

Dreads die far too easily unless venerable, at which point they cost too much to be useful.

Depends, dreads can tarpit units that you don't want to deal with for a while in CC, something which a vindi can't. In the end though I'd say that the AC/LC pred is your best bet for gun cpability (remember it CAN bring lots of long range waepons to lists that may have to otherwise rely on getting really close to your enemy).

A vindicator is better against tanks and infantry. Light tanks, the predator wins, meh.

It is closer with dread / vindicator.

This wouls be my list:

Vindicator


Dreadnought
Predator

I think the biggest weakness of vindicators is the scatter. Sure, they get a big penetration roll, but they effectively only hit about half the time (it's hard to quantify because it depends on the size of the target). Also the gun is AP2 versus the multimelta AP1.

Personally, I don't use my vindicator model because when I play against somebody who is using them, they're pretty easy to kill. I stay outside their short range for a turn or two, then when they close in and try to shoot (and miss about half the time because of the scatter) I shoot em in the side armor with range 24" AP1 multimeltas.

85 point predators are, IMO, the best value in the space marine heavy support slot. You can get three tough anti-horde, anti-light-vehicle units for 255 points, then spend points on mobile speeder and dread-mounted multimeltas for shooting heavy tanks.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think the biggest weakness of vindicators is the scatter. Sure, they get a big penetration roll, but they effectively only hit about half the time (it's hard to quantify because it depends on the size of the target). Also the gun is AP2 versus the multimelta AP1.

Personally, I don't use my vindicator model because when I play against somebody who is using them, they're pretty easy to kill. I stay outside their short range for a turn or two, then when they close in and try to shoot (and miss about half the time because of the scatter) I shoot em in the side armor with range 24" AP1 multimeltas.

85 point predators are, IMO, the best value in the space marine heavy support slot. You can get three tough anti-horde, anti-light-vehicle units for 255 points, then spend points on mobile speeder and dread-mounted multimeltas for shooting heavy tanks.

Meh, 1 vindicator is hardly ever worth it, I would suggest two or more minimum.

Also, think of it this way.

You have a 1/3 chance to get a target.

You have a 1/3 chance to deviate 0".

Then you can take into account the few scatters.

My problem with Vindicators, and bare in mind I do like them, is that one weapons destroyed result eliminates it. The other problem is the range, you have to move around to be effective, doing so increases the chances of exposing your weak side armour.

General_Chaos wrote:My problem with Vindicators, and bare in mind I do like them, is that one weapons destroyed result eliminates it. The other problem is the range, you have to move around to be effective, doing so increases the chances of exposing your weak side armour.

First part yes, though that is a problem with most tanks.

Second part, not if you have an effective tank line.

As someone who has played against both I have learnt to fear the vindicator, the dreadnought can easily become not useful, that is to say that it can be scrapped easily, and lacks a big gun. The DDCCW does not really make up for this due to the fact that they are normaly taken out at range. Oh, and to get the half strength you need to be off the base of the dreanought, sorry. But because it is treated kind of like infantry, the whole base is a target. Vindicator>Dreadnought. Predators are also excellent, and yah, specialise that tank, don't mix anti infantry and anti tank. Then one of your guns is wasted, and wasted amunition=death.

The bestest idea evar - use 2 DIFFERENT SPEARHEADS, and have both dreads and vindicators!

yea, if i had known nilla marines couldn't take as many dreads as BA could i probably wouldn't have even mentioned it. my 5 dreads usually live on because the whole rest of my army is in fast vehicles or deep striking right on my enemies laps therefor they don't get shot at too much.

They COULD shoot at my dreads, but they would miss out on a shot at either of my baal predators, an ominously death company looking razorback and 20 or so assault troopers that assaulted via drop pods. Eventually turn 3 shows up and my dreads make it into already engaged enemies or pumping melta into any remaining vehicles. This works for me and i enjoy watching them waddle across the field, but for nilla marines its a big point sink unless you like that kind of theme.

@despoiler52

What page are you finding the walker is like infantry for templates? the first sentence in the walker section "Walkers are a very unusual type of vehicle" leads me to believe that they are a type of vehicle. They only move like infantry, taking terrain tests and running in the shooting phase, and movement distances are either measured from the base, if it has one, or the hull, if it does not have one.

It doesn't really change my game plan either way, but i just couldn't find the rule you mentioned.

If you want tanks, try the Guard. We can field 18 tanks
Go with the Pred as any decent player will just stay out side the range of the Vinnie then take it out at range. Then you would have wasted a load of points for nothing. Don't get me wrong, some times it is worth its points but honistly, how many times has it just missed the broad side of a space port.

Ribon Fox wrote:If you want tanks, try the Guard. We can field 18 tanks
Go with the Pred as any decent player will just stay out side the range of the Vinnie then take it out at range. Then you would have wasted a load of points for nothing. Don't get me wrong, some times it is worth its points but honistly, how many times has it just missed the broad side of a space port.

You don't use vindicators do you? Sure, people can attempt to avoid them, though with good deployment/movement, you should always be able to fire on the enemy turn two, unless they reserve everything.

Meh, it has missed a few times I would have ratherered it hit, though much more often, it hits its mark.

No but i have tryed running afew Russ Demolishers which are almost the same type of tank (the same cannon mount). I persaonly like to be able to reach out and touch some one on turn one but then again I'm a Guard player so I like to keep every thing at arms length if I can.

Comparing Vindicator and Dreadnoughts isn't fair as the Dreadnought has so many different builds. You want Riflemen? Thats 4 Str 7 shots per turn for only 125pts. You can go cheap and load up on a few multi-melta strandard dreads. Drop an Ironclad into an unsuspecting enemy and keep those support units busy while the rest of your army advances up the field.

Vindicators can't do much really, they have one role to fill and thought they do it well, they're very one dimensonal.

Thread locked for Moderators to go through and issue some warnings and maybe some suspensions.

Lord-Loss wrote:Comparing Vindicator and Dreadnoughts isn't fair as the Dreadnought has so many different builds. You want Riflemen? Thats 4 Str 7 shots per turn for only 125pts. You can go cheap and load up on a few multi-melta strandard dreads. Drop an Ironclad into an unsuspecting enemy and keep those support units busy while the rest of your army advances up the field.

Vindicators can't do much really, they have one role to fill and thought they do it well, they're very one dimensonal.

Meh, vindicators can be very versatile.

Anti-tank? Check.

Anti-MEQ? Check.

Anti-GEQ? Check.

Moderators have given out several punishments due to rude posting in this thread.

It is now open for posting again.

Please restrain yourselves from such bad behaviour.

I wouldn't consider a vindicator to be a good value as an anti-tank unit.

At BS4, anything with an autocannon, mobile multimelta or missile launcher is a better value (and more effective) against AR10-12. So you're really only getting use out of a vindicator against AR13-14 targets. Those targets pretty much all either have guns that outrange you by a lot, or troops inside who will happily assault you after you take your one shot. Even if your shot doesn't scatter off and you get a pen, you can still roll a 1-3 on the damage table and have no significant effect.

A 50-60 point multimelta speeder or attack bike is much more effective versus AR13-14 targets, hitting 2/3 of the time and scoring a crippling result on the damage table on a 3+ (2+ vs. a battlewagon). If you're going to suicide anyway, it's better to spend your 150 points on three shots instead of one.

In my experience, two or three vindicators doesn't improve the value either. With a mobile army, I don't have any trouble shutting down 2-3 vindicators--usually in the mop up phase since they're ineffective enough to make them relatively low priority targets (only inexperienced players fall for vindicator spam as fire magnets). There's no way to hide the side/rear armor against a mobile opponent, and absolutely no way to hide rear armor from krak assaults.

Best way to deal with monoliths is to shoot & assault the warriors to go for phase-out. If you're shooting a vindicator (or 2-3 vindicators) at a monolith, that's probably unwise target selection.

In a chaos army, where you don't have mobile multimeltas, maybe. But for loyalist marines, I think the combination of autocannons, missiles, and mobile multimeltas outclasses vindicators.

infamousxiii wrote:

@despoiler52

What page are you finding the walker is like infantry for templates? the first sentence in the walker section "Walkers are a very unusual type of vehicle" leads me to believe that they are a type of vehicle. They only move like infantry, taking terrain tests and running in the shooting phase, and movement distances are either measured from the base, if it has one, or the hull, if it does not have one.

It doesn't really change my game plan either way, but i just couldn't find the rule you mentioned.

I'm sorry if I've caused you confusion, but on any models that have bases you use them as the target, infantry and being the one we see this on the most. But it is the same for walkers.