Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nkelsch wrote:

And Anyone who uses footslogging shootas frequently takes BS upgrades... Shootas are our best unit and are fantastic on foot in 5th, so I seriously don't see how there is only one competitive build and somehow it doesn't include BS. Orks have tons of ways to play competitively, and BS are used.

Pulled that out of that crazy WYSIWYG discussion over in Tournament.

Genuine question: I was wondering why shoota boyz would ever be considered the "best unit" with having a whole group of meatgrinders lose their +1 attack for 2 ccws instead of leaving the shooting to lootas who can bunker down in some cover and enjoy a) 30" more range, b) S3 more power conferring a 33% better chance TW against T4 alone, c) having an AP4 instead of 6 allowing them to ignore armor on at least some units in other armies, and d) the odd chance of gaining 33% more shots per units of lootas over shoota boyz?

I'm still new at this and was wondering if I was missing something. Even narrowing down to shooty builds, I'm still not seeing it. Sorry if this has been discussed before. It didn't catch my eye in search if it has been covered.

Well, a big reason is shoota boyz are fearless and scoring, and you get more than twice the amount of them than you would lootas. They can take a bosspole and a powerklaw nob. So they're much more resilient to shooting and reasonably good in close combat. They can also move and fire, which allows them to advance on objectives.

The reason people might take them over Sluggas is because the extended threat range and firepower is useful in certain situations. I usually take half shootas half sluggas in my horde list. However in the current environment I find Big Shootas to be fairly useless as they can't do much against vehicles, so I usually go all rokkits on all my squads. Sometimes with horde, it's in your favour to stand off and shoot (say, against tyranids if you've taken out their shooty elements) and shootas do that a lot better than sluggas. They can also continue to do damage while sitting on an objective. Sluggas on an objective have limited threat range and damage output, and can't really do much without abandoning the objective.

In a shooty build, obviously having a shooty scoring unit is good.

Because, unlike anything else in the ork army (besides nobs kitted right) they can actually HOLD objectives, rather than just take and move on. This also allows them the luxury of sitting where they want to be as opposed to where the nearest enemy in line is. This makes it easier to get a cover save

20+ shoota with a pk nob.

Good at cc, good at shooting, can hold and objective, fearless, very difficult to kill with shooting if they have cover (which is easy to make in an ork list), very ddifuclt to kill in cc for most units since they're great at it and the addition of the PK lets them theoretically hurt every unit in 40k.

Vs Lootaz - lootaz don't score, can't move and shoot, can't shoot then assault, have no pk so can't affect AV14, not very good in cc thanks to no pk and will only be fearless for the first 4 casualties. On the plus side lootaz put out a ton of high str shots with good range that are great at opening tanks or killing enemy troops/ monsters.

Vs sluggaz - sluggaz are better in cc if they get charged since they have an extra attack. If charging once you factor in shots shootas get 2 "attacks" at init 10 hitting on 5 's str 4 and ap 6, then 3 str 4 init 3 WS 4 attacks with no ap. The sluggaz get a single shot and then 4 attacks. Versus many enemies the ability to do 20+ "attacks" at init 10 is better because it reduces the amount of enemies that can hit you back in cc. But the sluggaz have advantage of hitting on 4's and having their casualties count towards cc res. Plus if you waaaghed that turn the sluggaz come out on top. Sluggaz are thus marginally better in cc on the charge and very much better in subsequent rounds of cc or if charged. Sluggaz lack the ability to be a threat if sitting on an objective plus they have amuch smaller threat range in general.

My rule is sluggaz in trukks, shootas on foot although either works in a wagon.

Lootaz are obviously great but I agree that shoota boyz are the backbone of the army.

Comparing shootas boyz and Lootas is an apples and oranges discussion - you don't compare one to the other to decide which to take because they have different roles within an army. Big Shootas that you referenced; in a foot-slogging army, they have a purpose and are a useful addition to a mob.

There *IS* a belief that is easy to justify that shoota boys are the most effective troop choice in 40k, and the most point effective unit as well. T4, S4 on the charge, with an 18" 2 shot gun and 2 base attacks. For 6 points.

AP4 on the Lootas is meaningless. Marines make up more than half of all 40k players, if polls and GW sales figures are any indication, and the armies that don't have 3+ saves have ready access to cover; Vehicles provide 4+ cover craters when they explode, and wrecking them....well, if you're playing against an army with transports, Lootas aren't getting shot at troops if you know what I mean.

Lootas shine because the metagame of 40k has developed into a mech heavy environment, where Lootas prove their worth. But shoota boyz are the most point effective models in 40k, and lethal in their own right. Keep in mind that Orks are only I3 on the charge, and even when NOT assaulting through cover, they're still likely to go last - pumping a buttload of shots into something before assaulting it helps reduce the number of casualties you'll take when you assault in.

Obvious answer: A shooty army should have Lootas AND shoota boyz. Fire support and troop scoring.

Cool. I realize now the true lack of comparison in objectives games, and was not really thinking about that side. I may have to reconfigure my army list. I was plannin on using trukkz and wagonz to dump a bunch melee-crunchers on the front line, but maybe a shoota mob with a big mek with kff in the middle and dumping the trukkz will provide better entertainment.