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OK, so in a game today we came upon this situation. Death Company w/Jump Packs was nearest a Chimera parked across a crater from them. The closest DC was less than 6" but the farthest was over 6" as so:



So here's the question... how to fulfill the Rage requirement. That rule states:

In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy.

So does his squad have to jump, since they "must move as fast as possible"? Can they choose to walk, face a difficult test and avoid the dangerous test?

"As Fast as possible" means just that.

Choosing to move as Infantry is NOT as fast as possible, so you can't do so.

In short, you would have to move as Jump infantry.

In this situation couldn't some of the models jump over the chimera or in front of it? If you can get to the 1" distance by jumping do you have to jump in a straight line?

Arschbombe wrote:In this situation couldn't some of the models jump over the chimera or in front of it? If you can get to the 1" distance by jumping do you have to jump in a straight line?

Yes, you could actually. So long as you get as many models as close as possible, how you do it is up to you.

Arschbombe wrote:In this situation couldn't some of the models jump over the chimera or in front of it? If you can get to the 1" distance by jumping do you have to jump in a straight line?

That actually seems to make some sense but the argument was "my guys can chose to walk" which seemed to be violating the rule. If he walked, he would be moving at a reduced rate due to the crater, and that would not be "as fast as possible" as Gwar pointed out.

Also noted was there is no requirement for the Rage affected unit to actually DO anything other than move. They can stop 1" out and NOT shoot and NOT assault if they wish. I guess they just use harsh language.

Gwar! wrote: Yes, you could actually. So long as you get as many models as close as possible, how you do it is up to you.

I'm not so sure that's the case. The rage rule specifies units not models. It doesn't necessarily follow that each model must move as close as possible to the nearest unit. In this situation I think the rage rule is satisfied if one model in the unit gets to 1" away.

The Green Git wrote:
That actually seems to make some sense but the argument was "my guys can chose to walk" which seemed to be violating the rule. If he walked, he would be moving at a reduced rate due to the crater, and that would not be "as fast as possible" as Gwar pointed out.

I got it. It's similar to situations I've run into where my DC dread had some small portion of difficult terrain between him and the nearest unit. I was never sure if I should try to go in a straight line through the terrain or skirt around it where the 6" move might actually get him closer than if he took the test and went straight. My opponents never seemed to care which way I did it.

Arschbombe wrote:

Gwar! wrote: Yes, you could actually. So long as you get as many models as close as possible, how you do it is up to you.

I'm not so sure that's the case. The rage rule specifies units not models. It doesn't necessarily follow that each model must move as close as possible to the nearest unit. In this situation I think the rage rule is satisfied if one model in the unit gets to 1" away.

True it says units, but if you move some of the models further away from the enemy, you are not moving the "unit" that way.

It's not as clear as measuring distances to units, that much I will say. I do feel however that when moving a unit with Rage, the whole unit (and by extension, every model in that unit) must move as fast as possible and get as close as possible to the closest enemy.

Gwar! wrote:

Arschbombe wrote:

Gwar! wrote: Yes, you could actually. So long as you get as many models as close as possible, how you do it is up to you.

I'm not so sure that's the case. The rage rule specifies units not models. It doesn't necessarily follow that each model must move as close as possible to the nearest unit. In this situation I think the rage rule is satisfied if one model in the unit gets to 1" away.

True it says units, but if you move some of the models further away from the enemy, you are not moving the "unit" that way.

It's not as clear as measuring distances to units, that much I will say. I do feel however that when moving a unit with Rage, the whole unit (and by extension, every model in that unit) must move as fast as possible and get as close as possible to the closest enemy.

Ah, but that is just your feelings, which has no bearing on a game. Instead, the rule specifically implies that the unit as a whole must move as fast as possible towards the enemy, and therefore as long as the unit is 12" less away from the enemy as it was before, the rule has been satisfied.

Therefore, if:

E: enemy
R: models in the unit with rage
..: 1 inch

Before movement:
E...........................................R
E...........................................R
E...........................................R
E...........................................R
E...........................................R


After movement:


E...................R......................
E.........................R................
E...............................R..........
E.....................................R....
E...........................................R

This one has not moved at all...^
But it's legal because the unit has moved a total of 12" towards the enemy, and 0" away, which is the maximum movement allowed!

No, Some models in the unit have moved.

They whole unit hasn't moved 12", only some of the models in the unit have. For the whole unit to move 12", THE WHOLE UNIT has to actually move 12".

i don't have the book with me now, this appears technically correct (but sure to get you a TFG label), I would look in the unit section and look for any reference to units having to move the same for compulsory movement. The precedent would be falling back, but I believe every model is addressed individually there.

Gwar! wrote:No, Some models in the unit have moved.

They whole unit hasn't moved 12", only some of the models in the unit have. For the whole unit to move 12", THE WHOLE UNIT has to actually move 12".

Hrm.....
Makes sense.

Makes sense to me too Gwar, but for some it's not about making sense...

Gwar! wrote:No, Some models in the unit have moved.

They whole unit hasn't moved 12", only some of the models in the unit have. For the whole unit to move 12", THE WHOLE UNIT has to actually move 12".

This isnt strictly true. There are occassions where some models in a unit move but others dont, the unit will still count as having moved. For example if you move several bolter guys in a marine squad but dont move the heavy weapon you still cannot shoot the H/W as the unit has moved. However Gwar before you bite my head off I agree with your point, the unit must move by the fastest means possible and each member of the unit must move towards the enemy as much as they can. I think any other attempt to try and negate rage is kinda TFG

If I was in the wrong then I am sorry. I'm actually sorry any ways. I probably should have just jumped the DC all into terrain and taken my licks just for the sake of peace and good gaming.

I argued because I believed I was in the right. It was also the first time I had run into this situation with the new codex. At first I had argued that the DC could move as infantry towards the chimera. I completely understand that was stupid- It's not as fast as possible. It just seemed ridiculous that my guys would rocket themselves into the rocks when they could just walk up and touch the chimera (the diagram is off a little- only one member of the unit was outside of 6" to 1" from the chimera). My second argument was the same that Nightwatch presented: If the first model in the unit moved as fast as possible toward the target then the requirements for Rage have been met. I present the following premises not to continue my side of the argument but to show my reasoning for arguing the way I did.

1. In game models and units are 2 different things. Units consist of any number of models, but in the main rules and across all the codices there is a clear distinction as to what an individual model versus a unit may or must do. In particular, when a piece of war gear has a ranged area of affect it will specify whether models or units are affected.

2. Movement in general is defined by units. In circumstances where the individual model's movement is taken into account, the unit's movement takes precedence. A heavy weapon model my remain stationary, but if his unit moves he counts as moving. A unit attempting a difficult terrain move may decide not to actually move any models, but the unit still counts as moving.

3. The rule book specifies situations in which the individual model's movement is to be taken into account; such as units falling back. In the units falling back section of the rule book it specifies that individual models, not just units, must move the full distance rolled. Rage makes no such specification.

4. Rage specifies only units. To imply that individual models must all move the full distance toward the target is an assumption. If only one model moves as fast and as far as it can toward the target as long as the other models within the unit maintain coherency, then the unit has moved that distance albeit changing formation.

5. I was told that was the way it worked (while seemingly the least important of the premises being told how something works can be pretty powerful in ones own mind).

As far as what makes sense goes, I think we can all agree that the rules of this game often don't make sense, such as what Git pointed out- the DC have to charge full speed toward the enemy but they don't have to attack? ok. And applying logic to make sense of the rules is often futile at best. So what makes sense is not always technically accurate according to the rules.

Look. I don't want to be TFG. We had a rules dispute, which is surprisingly common in this game, and it came to an impasse. We agreed to D6 for it and I suggested that we consult a reputable 3rd party- such as Dakka. I am not a win at all costs type of fellow- far from it. I don't know if Git believes that any more. I enjoy winning, but do not find it necessary to have a good game. I assure you, the conflict in question had very little to do with the the final outcome of the game. Had it played a more pivotal role, I would have been more likely to relent. I was arguing a on a matter of principle not as a way to win the game.

I'm very sorry if bad feelings resulted from this situation. Right or wrong, I feel bad about it. But before any of you label me as TFG, tell me that you've just rolled over on a rules argument that you believed to be valid the first time it came up.

Angelis Ex wrote:If I was in the wrong then I am sorry. I'm actually sorry any ways. I probably should have just jumped the DC all into terrain and taken my licks just for the sake of peace and good gaming.
<snip>
I'm very sorry if bad feelings resulted from this situation. Right or wrong, I feel bad about it. But before any of you label me as TFG, tell me that you've just rolled over on a rules argument that you believed to be valid the first time it came up.

No hard feelings Rob. I actually brought this here because of your suggestion. Hell, I want to make sure that it's not *ME* being TFG (not saying you were). Nobody's perfect, least of all me.

Just to prove I'm not sore I won't even bring up the fact you cheated when you stuck Mephiston in a Rhino with a squad at the beginning of the game.

Oh hell, sorry about that.

yeah, I guess I was cheating. Still havin' trouble getting used to him as not an IC. If you knew better, I wish you'd called me on it. As long as we're getting it all out, I also pre-measured a 12" move for mephiston and then elected not to use wings. My army was not wysiwyg (i should be shot). Lets see, I forgot about corbulo and walked him on with the devastators. Im sure I made more infractions along the way.. so hard to keep track.
And it's a damn good thing I've got friends who help make sure I don't over move my models and check to make sure they're in coherency! God knows what shenanigans I might try to pull.
Guess playerA was right about me. I am a dirty cheater. Seems like I might be habitual- maybe I'm the one who should play chess.

In the original photo it looks like they could have jumped to the front and side of the chimera, while moving 12". It does not say "move as fast as possible in a straight line" towards the nearest visible unit, it just says as "fast as possible."

It's not a very well-defined rule by any means.

willydstyle wrote:In the original photo it looks like they could have jumped to the front and side of the chimera, while moving 12". It does not say "move as fast as possible in a straight line" towards the nearest visible unit, it just says as "fast as possible."

It's not a very well-defined rule by any means.

I had suggested this as possible course of action for my DC. It was also deemed unacceptable by my opponent.

Why? You've moved "as fast as possible" and "towards the nearest visible unit" you have satisfied both criteria of the rule.

I suppose because once I moved past it I was no longer moving towards it?

Another interesting thing to consider- in this argument speed and distance seem to be the same thing. That in itself opens the door for a whole lot of disagreein'.

Angelis Ex wrote:I suppose because once I moved past it I was no longer moving towards it?

Another interesting thing to consider- in this argument speed and distance seem to be the same thing. That in itself opens the door for a whole lot of disagreein'.

The problem is that in 40k, units don't move at a "speed" but only at a distance, because movement is not "distance per time" but simply "distance" in inches.

In fact moving "as fast as possible" simply doesn't make any sense in the rules at all.

Apparently, making sense is not what I'm interested in.

Moving as fast as possible does make sense, you just need to realize that a unit's speed is not in mph or kmh. It is in Inches per Turn.

The maximum speed of Death Company with packs is 12" + d6 IpT. Therefore, they need to engage the packs. The only time you might be able to make an exceptions is when they cannot move at all.

Or when moving 6" or less would be sufficient, I would guess - as they have still moved "as fast as possible" towards the unit.

The D6" is also not relevant, as you do not HAVE to Run, you can choose to shoot instead.

Angelis Ex wrote:yeah, I guess I was cheating. Still havin' trouble getting used to him as not an IC. If you knew better, I wish you'd called me on it. As long as we're getting it all out, I also pre-measured a 12" move for mephiston and then elected not to use wings. My army was not wysiwyg (i should be shot). Lets see, I forgot about corbulo and walked him on with the devastators. Im sure I made more infractions along the way.. so hard to keep track.

Hell, if I'd realized it at the time I would have called you on it. One of those things that hits you later I guess.

As for the "dirty cheater" you do bath regular and have the grooming thing down so dirty doesn't apply, and I don't really think you broke any rules on purpose so cheating isn't really fair either. You made a rules mistake that I missed too... I was just having a little fun at your expense.

I do think the pre-measuring Mephiston's 12" move before checking his ability to move 12" was in the bag should not have been done. I wouldn't do it, but that's me. This would also allow you to see what you could reach by charge on foot without taking pesky dangerous tests. Not saying that's what you did, but just bringing up an example of abuse by doing so and why I wouldn't do it.

The jumping past thing would have been the better of the two solutions but we diced it and I was willing to let the dice roll stand. Now I'm just trying to figure out what the general consensus on what "as fast as possible" means.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:It's not a very well-defined rule by any means.

Agree 100% and I pointed out this very thing when we were discussing it after-game. The damn rule even mandates movement but not combat. I can move "as fast as possible" and not shoot and not assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The D6" is also not relevant, as you do not HAVE to Run, you can choose to shoot instead.

I thought Rage gave them an extra d6" of movement? Maybe it is different for my old Penitent Engines.

Rage, the current USR, just requires you to move as fast as possible towards a target. No extra movement.

Holy Rage, which you have, DOES grant extra movement, and you can even run to gain even more movement out of it, if memory serves.

Right, you can run as well with it, thanks for the catch.

That is a bit of a shame since I always looked at the drawback of losing almost complete movement control of your units being the extra d6 you got in the movement phase.

I guess having jump pack marines with a possible 24" move seems a little too extreme for GW

When you put it that way it seems like that extra movement might be a bit much....

I maintain it is underwhelming though on said Penitent Engines!