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First army, advices strongly needed. Tzeentch and Slaanesh only.

Lord of change w/We are Legion & breath of chaos - 320 points

The Masque - 100 points

Daemon Prince w/mark of Tzeentch & msater of sorcery & bolt of Tzeench & Daemonic Gaze & Soul devourer - 180 points

Soul Grinder w/phlegm - 160 points

10 pink horrors w/1 bolt of Tzeentch - 180

2 Fiends of Slaanesh - 60

Also, a noobish question from a noob - what is the difference between "We are legion" rule and "Master of sorcery"

Bisturi wrote:

Also, a noobish question from a noob - what is the difference between "We are legion" rule and "Master of sorcery"

We Are Legion allows you to fire each of your weapons at a different target unit.

Master of Sorcery allows you to fire one extra weapon.

Standard infantry can only fire one weapon. Monstrous Creatures can fire two. Mastery of Sorcery allows them to fire two and three respectively.

We Are Legion allows you to fire each of those weapons at different target, normally you can only fire all your weapons at one target.



Master of Sorcery is wasted on your Daemon Prince. He has two weapons and can fire three. If your Lord of Change had more weapons and Master or Sorcery, We Are Legion would be more useful. I mean since you're already investing the 40 points into it.

Heralds of Tzeentch would probably be more useful than a Lord of Change but Lords of Change are AWESOME just on the MY ARMY HAS A GIANT BIRD-RAPTOR-VULTURE-SORCEROR factor so if you're not a tournament player I'd keep him.

I'd try to get the Changeling in the list somehow.

Too many points on "Heroes", few on guys.

40K is not a RPG game.

You have only 10 troop models, which would die like IG guardsmen.

Masque is fail. T3, 2W, not an IC. Even hard to survive in killteam-scale games.

Yeah that's very true. You should probably drop the Masque and some of your very expensive choices and get some actual troops.

I'd try to get the Changeling in the list somehow.

I tried it in 3 games in row and it has never worked still.

Heralds of Tzeentch would probably be more useful than a Lord of Change

Imho, they're too fragile and easily stopped in close combat

if you're not a tournament player

Yep. But what the difference anyway?

Masque is fail. T3, 2W, not an IC. Even hard to survive in killteam-scale games.

Invulnerable save 3+ and needed only for her Pavane of Slaanesh

HQs: drop the masque and get a chariot of Tzeentch or something.

elites: drop the feinds and get flamers.

TR: actually, now that I think about it just drop the herald altogeather and get horrors.

HQs: drop the masque and get a chariot of Tzeentch or something.

It will be more expensive.

elites: drop the feinds and get flamers.

So i need to drop herald too.

And what about Masque - has anybody played with her? What is it like? Is her pavane of slaanesh is useful?

Sorry Bisturi, but I agree with the others, the Masque is fail...
It gets shot to pieces by humble Imperial Guardsmen...
If you really want to include Pavane into your army, consider a Slaanesh Herald on Chariot (T4 W5 instead of the masques T3 W2) for 15 points cheaper.
Or get a Deamon Prince with MoS and Pavane for 120 points.
But Pavane isn't that good anyway.... Lash of Submission of our Marine brothers is way better (6" more range and 2d6 movement instead of our d6)

Now to the list:
at 1000 Points your Lord of Change is overpriced... you spend one third of your army in one Model. A Deamon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch and Bolt of Tzeentch is half the Price...

Perhaps this would do better (I'm staying with your list approach of Tzeentch with Pavane support)

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Master of Sorcery, We are Legion, Bolt of Tzeentch 110 Points
Herald of Slaanesh, Chariot, Pavane, Unholy Might 95 points

Elite
3 Flamers 105 points

Troops
5 Horrors, Bolt 95 points
5 Horrors, Bolt 95 points
5 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling 100 points

Fast Attack
5 Screamers 80 points

Heavy Support
Deamon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch,Deamonic Gaze 160
Deamon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch,Deamonic Gaze 160

1000 points

The list is very vulnerable against close combat attacks,...
Perhaps you find a spot for some CC specialists?

I agree with much of the rest of the advice given. Changeling doesn't work often, but when he does it's devastating to your enemy. And he's only 5 points.

I don't agree with dropping fiends for flamers. Flamers are great - I've got two squads of them - but if I were starting a new army I'd get fiends instead. Unless you routinely face tons of terminators, plague marines, or death company (and maybe even if you do), flamers are a one-shot deal that are only worth the shot if the enemy is highly clustered, has only 1 wound, and is fairly expensive. (That said, you probably want more fiends if you're going to field any. 2 Fiends sounds a bit fragile to me.)

Pavane is, in theory, useful. The problem with the Masque is that an intelligent opponent will kill her before she can use it more than once or twice. (Note: I've never fielded her. But a 3++ simply doesn't make her survivable... she would die, easily, to massed lasgun or bolter fire.)

The LoC is lots of fun, and I could actually see it doing well at 1000 points depending on what your opponent brings to the table. That said, from a you-want-to-win standpoint you probably are better off replacing him with a couple of chariot-mounted tzeralds.

You don't need soul devourer on your DP. He's a MC, so he already ignores armor saves. The only benefit is causing ID, but many of the models you'd want to cause ID to are immune to it. (Maybe if you routinely fight 'Nids, it would be worth it. Maybe.)

Well, I see that LoC is too expensive, just wanted to see how he will fit. To Emeror's servant - splitting horrors is not very good if battle goes for killpoints - I've already suffered that, and screamers are unnecessary to my mind, Bolt of Tzeench screws technique well. And to Davel - lots of dices is anyway great thing against single models. And there is only 2 fiends were only because I had just 60 points left. And what about Bluescribes? Do they play well?

Defiantly get a Herald of Tzeentch on a Chariot, they are money! I think every daemon army needs more fiends, a squad of 5 will decimate any thing :}

Ignore everyone saying to drop fiends and go with flamers. In regards to elite choices they are the best for their price. F

Yes, I've disappointed in flamers last battle. So I decided to get rid of them and LoC in exchange of bluescribes, more horrors and fiends. I'll try to get there salaanesh DP also, so there will be two DPs.

Blue horrors really end up weak in terms of survivability. While they do have more killing power, plaguebearers have far greater staying power. It takes a lot to remove 5 T5 models in cover with a 4+ feel no pain and a 5+ invulnerable when they go to ground. By using horrors you might be tempted to actually use them for their killing ability which sets them up to be utterly devastated and your troops to be gone. I don't know why you want Slaanesh DP over Tzeentch. Tzeentch has shooting and survivability. The only reason I could think of using Slaanesh, would be to have hit and run or pavane.

So, I've thought a little and created a new version of army:

Herold of tzeentzh w\ chariot, we are legion, bolt of tzeentch, breath of chaos, boon of mutation - 165

Soulgrinder w\ phlegm - 160

DP w\ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, master of sorcery, boly of tzeentch - 165

DP w\ mark of slaanesh, pavane of slaanesh, transfixing gaze - 130

4 fiends of slaanesh - 120

15 pink horrors w\ changeling - 240

What's about this one?

Try this one. I know it is limited, but it is only 1000 points. 3 full units of fiends should really rape at this points level though.
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 110 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 110 pts Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; DGT: We Are Legion; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 110 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 110 pts Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; DGT: We Are Legion; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts



Total Roster Cost: 985

The point is I want to have army of Tzeentch-Slaanesh only, I have no interest in Khorne and Nurgle at all.

Oh. Well then do whatever you want. lol.

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 110 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 110 pts Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; DGT: We Are Legion; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 110 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 110 pts Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; DGT: We Are Legion; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts
Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts




This list is actually very good, you should try it.

but since you don't want the nurgle switch the bearers for deamonettes, 5 points saved on each unit so 15 extra points add on the 15 you had already your at 30, drop fiends down to 5 man,
18 at a thousand will kill everything, but deamonettes need numbers to be good. this gives you 90+ 30, 120

not quite what we need so drop we are legion on the heralds (honestly 3 shots at a tac squad ain't that scary,)
140pts
10 more deamonettes so the list should look like this now

2xHeraldoTzeentch,MoS,BoC,Chariot.
3x5 Fiends

2x 8 Deamonettes
1x 9 Deamonettes
1000pts.


yeah, that should beat face at just about everything you can run into 1000pts, and it keeps to your theme.
Fear Landraiders and Flamers!

Either get 3x Soul Grinders (or 2x at 1k points) or none at all. Also, it seems like every list I see you posting only has 1 troop choice (maybe I am reading them wrong) but Fiends are Elites not troops...

If you field Daemonettes run them in squads of at least 12 (which is good for fluff too!) and maybe 14.

personally i would never field grinders, at any points level people bring meltaguns, so every game expect it to down fairly fast

Agreed with Sarnath. I wouldn't field Grinders ever. Daemon Princes are far greater in all aspects. Given your god restriction, I'm not sure if it would be better for you to use Horrors or Daemonettes. Horrors have Jump Packs which gives them mobility, they also have a 4+ save which gives them a slight edge in terms of survivability. You really don't want either of your troops to get into CC as they will swiftly get overwhelmed by almost any CC dedicated unit. Because of this Horrors can stay out of CC easier and can grab objectives a whole lot quicker. I know Horrors cost more, but seeing how you can't get Plague Bearers, I would probably go with Horrors. Just so you know, never ever use Screamers. They really suck that bad.

Well, with luck Soulgrinder can deal some damage, but against with luck, yes. So one more question - how big should be the horrors squads to both be powerful and not be let down easily. Where I play we play on kill points most time and squads of minimum number - 5 - does no good.

I would run 10 man squads, but that is just me. Definitely play test and find what works best for you. However, I would suggest 10 at a minimum and remember, you won't your guys to stay out of combat and really just hold objectives. Move them around to keep them out of trouble and don't be afraid to send them to ground if they are already in cover for that nice 3+ cover. Once things get close light them up with their shooting attacks. The Fiend Squads should definitely beat the living tar out of any foot units at that points level.

"Horrors have Jump Packs which gives them mobility"

matthc read your codex before giving advice to other players...


on top of them not having jump packs, they are expensive as hell, go with the deamonettes..they also give you a nice punch against tyranids.

Your opponent is really going to have to make tough choices if you properly field the masque. Do they shoot the masque, or the fiends that just munch'd a squad, the herald on chariot that is killing a chimera a turn, or any of the other threats in your army. Drop 12 fiends and 12 seekers in 4 different units and see what's getting shot at. 10 lasguns, get 5 hits, 2 1/2 wounds, so it isn't even likely she will go down to one. It takes a full round of rapid fire to take her down, that's all firepower not being directed at your heavy hitter units.

I would really recommend horror's over daemonettes. The biggest reason being that they can sit on an objective and contribute to the fight, daemonettes holding an objective just sit there. Plus horror's are really the only troop unit that can actually have a chance of taking out a tank trying to tank shock you off of the objective.

@ Sarnath

My bad, I honestly don't know what I was thinking. I'm a plaguebearer user myself, I guess not using Horrors in forever is what threw me off.

Im going to say this since i dont think anyone else has, but the chaos daemons codex was made to use all 4 of the chaos gods in a single list. Nurgle units give durability, khorne gives straight killing, tzeentch gives shooting and invulnerables, slaanesh has high initiative and sexy powers. Limiting yourself to only 2 of the gods makes the chaos daemons codex near useless.

But if you wanna stick to just tzeentch and slaanesh then it becomes pretty cut and dry what units to use.

Flamers and fiends are both good. Flamers are really good for killing terminators, sanguinary guard, and general tough units, as well as having strong anti-whorde abilities due to template and they have a 4++. Fiends are amazing anti-tank. The models are expensive but they are needed.

Daemonettes have no survivability, they have a lot of attacks, rending, and good movement. But if they dont get the charge, they die quickly.

Pink horrors also die fast. Not as fast as daemonettes but they are still toughness 3 with a 4++...not very good. The problem with these guys is they need to be within 18" to do anything. So if they are going to shoot, they are probably going to die. If they want to survive, they probably arent going to do anything. Only use is sitting on objectives, which plaguebearers do much better.

Greater Daemons in a 1000 point list are a waste. They take up too many points and your list will suffer because of it. Take heralds or lower point special characters.

The masque is always intriguing to pick, however she can easily die to a single lasgun. A 3++ looks really good on paper, but at Toughness 3 she is still going to die easily. A round of rapidfire from marines is 10x more than what is needed to kill her.

Screamers are not a bad option, despite their crappy statline. They are basically flying melta bombs. Take a few and use their turbo-boost to your advantage.

Seekers of slaanesh are a pretty good fast attack. 6" movement + fleet + 12" charge makes for a long assault range. Remember they are still very fragile.

Daemon Princes are going to be your friend. I reccomend not using slaanesh ones. With the 4++ from mark of tzeentch you dont need the 3+ from iron hide, which saves on points. Monsterous creatures can fire 2 guns base, so give him daemonic gaze and bolt + wings for good fast moving shots. As well as a strong CC ability.

Tzeentch and Slaanesh have the weakest units in the Chaos Daemons Codex. Nurgle and Khorne are what balance them. This means your list is going to get slaughtered in CC.

The slaanesh units will be targeted first and shot from a distance, then the soft tzeentch units will be chopped to pieces in CC, or also shot to death. Lists consisting of only tzeentch and slaanesh will be easily killed in shooting and CC. Ive listed the benefits of all your units above so try and see what works for you.

The masque is much better suited for a plague style list, as you don't have the fast units to chase things, a tzeentch /slannesh list will never have a problem catching things though.

Yes, horrors survive slightly better than deamonettes, but they are more expensive and can't survive being charged by ANYTHING, including firewarriors >.> not very efficent for holding an objective,

Whereas deamonettes are able to take an objective, trash most things in combat (at 1000pts) go to ground for a 3+ save(making them just as survivable as horrors.) and move faster,

Mr twitter all good advice, but please people stop trying to convince him to use nurgle/khorne units, he's said TWICE he doesn't want to...

@Sarnath666 - but he really should... Thats how the book was designed. These kind of lists are really only good for fluff and asking for tactical advice is really quite difficult with no wiggle room.

And besides, if people keep telling him maybe he will try