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Sarnath666 wrote:The masque is much better suited for a plague style list, as you don't have the fast units to chase things, a tzeentch /slannesh list will never have a problem catching things though.

Yes, horrors survive slightly better than deamonettes, but they are more expensive and can't survive being charged by ANYTHING, including firewarriors >.> not very efficent for holding an objective,

Whereas deamonettes are able to take an objective, trash most things in combat (at 1000pts) go to ground for a 3+ save(making them just as survivable as horrors.) and move faster,

Mr twitter all good advice, but please people stop trying to convince him to use nurgle/khorne units, he's said TWICE he doesn't want to...

It's not about catching things with the masque in a tzeentch/slaanesh list. It's about pulling them out of cover. A unit of horror's shooting at fire warriors out of cover = dead fire warriors. Inside cover not so much. And you would be suprised how often a unit of horrors with their 4+ invul will tie something up in hth. They rarely kill anything (my best one to date is putting 1 wound on a trygon and killing it, but that is such a stretch it's not funny) but every now and then that 4+ invul will lock someone down, until your fiends or someone else is available to kill it off. Pulling things out of cover also helps fiends since they don't have assault grenades. And being able to flip walkers to rear armor is nothing to laugh at. It's also about pushing things away. Dismounted thunder hammer terminators are always a good bet to push away from your forces, or for last turn objective grabs.

Warmaster wrote:

Sarnath666 wrote:The masque is much better suited for a plague style list, as you don't have the fast units to chase things, a tzeentch /slannesh list will never have a problem catching things though.

Yes, horrors survive slightly better than deamonettes, but they are more expensive and can't survive being charged by ANYTHING, including firewarriors >.> not very efficent for holding an objective,

Whereas deamonettes are able to take an objective, trash most things in combat (at 1000pts) go to ground for a 3+ save(making them just as survivable as horrors.) and move faster,

Mr twitter all good advice, but please people stop trying to convince him to use nurgle/khorne units, he's said TWICE he doesn't want to...

It's not about catching things with the masque in a tzeentch/slaanesh list. It's about pulling them out of cover. A unit of horror's shooting at fire warriors out of cover = dead fire warriors. Inside cover not so much. And you would be suprised how often a unit of horrors with their 4+ invul will tie something up in hth. They rarely kill anything (my best one to date is putting 1 wound on a trygon and killing it, but that is such a stretch it's not funny) but every now and then that 4+ invul will lock someone down, until your fiends or someone else is available to kill it off. Pulling things out of cover also helps fiends since they don't have assault grenades. And being able to flip walkers to rear armor is nothing to laugh at. It's also about pushing things away. Dismounted thunder hammer terminators are always a good bet to push away from your forces, or for last turn objective grabs.

firewarriors in cover aren't scaring this list. charge a herald into them and be done with it. Deamonettes will tie things up just as well because you have more, they will strike first and therefore damage the opponent =less attacks on them and most likley kill the unit (We ARE talking 1000pts here) they DO have assault grenades, and they can even hurt walkers >.> the masque tends to just be a waste of points in a list like this

Sarnath666 wrote:

firewarriors in cover aren't scaring this list. charge a herald into them and be done with it. Deamonettes will tie things up just as well because you have more, they will strike first and therefore damage the opponent =less attacks on them and most likley kill the unit (We ARE talking 1000pts here) they DO have assault grenades, and they can even hurt walkers >.> the masque tends to just be a waste of points in a list like this

5 horror's vs. 6 daemonettes isn't a ton more. The daemonettes aren't touching an av13 and can only glance an av12 which is still more than horror's can do but not by much. The masque serves dual purpose between pulling units out of cover for fiends who do not have grenades, and pulling units or pushing units away from your horrors. Thats just my own personal preference I like the supportive nature of the masque, plus I'm not above using the masque to tie down a dreadnaught either.

Mrtwitter - no wai!!! As for me, there is no pleasure in winning with the army you doesn't like at all. Now, I'm playing for fun and, despite I WANT to win, I stall have... principles, ideals and other stuff, you know. Warmaster, you've got the idea - let the opponent do not reach a 1' to hit everybody in my army

Warmaster wrote:

Sarnath666 wrote:

firewarriors in cover aren't scaring this list. charge a herald into them and be done with it. Deamonettes will tie things up just as well because you have more, they will strike first and therefore damage the opponent =less attacks on them and most likley kill the unit (We ARE talking 1000pts here) they DO have assault grenades, and they can even hurt walkers >.> the masque tends to just be a waste of points in a list like this

5 horror's vs. 6 daemonettes isn't a ton more. The daemonettes aren't touching an av13 and can only glance an av12 which is still more than horror's can do but not by much. The masque serves dual purpose between pulling units out of cover for fiends who do not have grenades, and pulling units or pushing units away from your horrors. Thats just my own personal preference I like the supportive nature of the masque, plus I'm not above using the masque to tie down a dreadnaught either.

The thing you forget is most vehicles are AV10 in the back. And since daemonettes can only use rending attacks in CC they are able to kill most vehicles. Its been a while since i have played IG but i am fairly sure even Leman Russ's are AV10 or AV11 in the back. So the only things they cant kill are monoliths (which very few things can), and landraiders. Much better than horrors in all anti-tank respects.

Also something to remember is the Masque takes up a HQ slot, which, depending on your list, can be a very reliable spot. The masque's only use is her pavane which really isnt very effective. Moving a squad D6" could very well mean 1", is that even worth it? Think of how easy it is to kill a space marine. Then make it easier as she is toughness 3. And she isnt in a squad. A very specialized model that can only be effectively used with the right list. And i agree that she doesnt belong here. She is all support, that should be saved for 1500 point lists where there are more things for the masque to support.

Mrtwitter - IF daemonettes survive long enough to get to Leman Russ from rear, while horrors can take less risks

All they have to do is make base to base, units in CC automatically hit on back armor. Unless its a walker. With proper deepstrike and fleet, that really shouldnt be a problem.

mrwittwer wrote:The thing you forget is most vehicles are AV10 in the back. And since daemonettes can only use rending attacks in CC they are able to kill most vehicles. Its been a while since i have played IG but i am fairly sure even Leman Russ's are AV10 or AV11 in the back. So the only things they cant kill are monoliths (which very few things can), and landraiders. Much better than horrors in all anti-tank respects.

Also something to remember is the Masque takes up a HQ slot, which, depending on your list, can be a very reliable spot. The masque's only use is her pavane which really isnt very effective. Moving a squad D6" could very well mean 1", is that even worth it? Think of how easy it is to kill a space marine. Then make it easier as she is toughness 3. And she isnt in a squad. A very specialized model that can only be effectively used with the right list. And i agree that she doesnt belong here. She is all support, that should be saved for 1500 point lists where there are more things for the masque to support.

So you can say that the daemonettes are better in all anti-tank aspects until you get a vehicle moving over 6 inch's a turn, tank shocking you off of an objective on the last turn. This is the exact situation I'm talking about and if the other person is going second you are screwed, since tank shocks resolve at front armor you are going to have to roll a 6 followed by a 5-6 just to try to glance an av12, and thats what you are going to need to roll to penetrate av11. The horror's odds are much better.

Also any vehicle going fast would look like this 40 attacks from 10 daemonettes, is about 6.5 hits, you then should average 1 6, you then need a 3 or better, which means you have about 75% chance to get a pen, then needing another 5 or 6 to take out the vehicle. Which means that overall your daemonettes have about a 25% chance of killing any av10 vehicle. Now on the plus side you made that vehicle move fast so it's either not shooting or shooting at reduced effectiveness, still not good odds by any means. Now the horror's taking their one bolt shot at an av11 vehicle only ends up at something like 12.5% but they get to do that from 24 inch's away, instead of right next to the vehicle, and it goes up to a little better than 25% if it tank shocks.

About the masque. So if you have the masque, a squad of fiends, and 2 squads of flamers, not to mention 3 chariot heralds in the backfield, what are you going to shoot at? Who is the biggest threat? The masque survives through the use of los block terrain or target saturation. You basically just need to have higher threat targets than the masque around. And 1 inch can mean the difference between a dead squad of marines and one that's laughing at you. 3 tzeentch chariot heralds generate on average around 6 meq wounds, if in cover you only kill 3, if they go to ground you kill 2, pull them off of the cover and you just killed 6, which is a combat squad. Or take an assault squad, stick it in cover and dare the unit of fiends to assault it you will lose 1 to 2 fiends before they get to hit, the masque can pull it out of cover and give you the initiative for the assault. The masque can also spin dreadnaughts so you can take rear armor shots instead of their front 12 or 13. This to me is huge with the new blood angel's blood talon dreads, those things are just nasty.

I'm not saying every list should have horror's and every list should have the masque. I actually do like to see daemonettes in scarbrand lists (although usually that's about it). It also comes down to play style some people will just be more comfortable with daemonettes or horrors and thus those units will be more usefull.

Warmaster wrote:

So you can say that the daemonettes are better in all anti-tank aspects until you get a vehicle moving over 6 inch's a turn, tank shocking you off of an objective on the last turn. This is the exact situation I'm talking about and if the other person is going second you are screwed, since tank shocks resolve at front armor you are going to have to roll a 6 followed by a 5-6 just to try to glance an av12, and thats what you are going to need to roll to penetrate av11. The horror's odds are much better.

Also any vehicle going fast would look like this 40 attacks from 10 daemonettes, is about 6.5 hits, you then should average 1 6, you then need a 3 or better, which means you have about 75% chance to get a pen, then needing another 5 or 6 to take out the vehicle. Which means that overall your daemonettes have about a 25% chance of killing any av10 vehicle. Now on the plus side you made that vehicle move fast so it's either not shooting or shooting at reduced effectiveness, still not good odds by any means. Now the horror's taking their one bolt shot at an av11 vehicle only ends up at something like 12.5% but they get to do that from 24 inch's away, instead of right next to the vehicle, and it goes up to a little better than 25% if it tank shocks.

About the masque. So if you have the masque, a squad of fiends, and 2 squads of flamers, not to mention 3 chariot heralds in the backfield, what are you going to shoot at? Who is the biggest threat? The masque survives through the use of los block terrain or target saturation. You basically just need to have higher threat targets than the masque around. And 1 inch can mean the difference between a dead squad of marines and one that's laughing at you. 3 tzeentch chariot heralds generate on average around 6 meq wounds, if in cover you only kill 3, if they go to ground you kill 2, pull them off of the cover and you just killed 6, which is a combat squad. Or take an assault squad, stick it in cover and dare the unit of fiends to assault it you will lose 1 to 2 fiends before they get to hit, the masque can pull it out of cover and give you the initiative for the assault. The masque can also spin dreadnaughts so you can take rear armor shots instead of their front 12 or 13. This to me is huge with the new blood angel's blood talon dreads, those things are just nasty.

I'm not saying every list should have horror's and every list should have the masque. I actually do like to see daemonettes in scarbrand lists (although usually that's about it). It also comes down to play style some people will just be more comfortable with daemonettes or horrors and thus those units will be more usefull.

Im not advocating that daemonettes are the best anti-tank, but they are better than 1 bolt from a squad of horrors, especially since its a 50% chance they miss. Daemons lack overall in the anti-tank department, so take what you can get.

The problem with he masque is that it only takes a small amount to kill her. Thats what i dont like. Sure there are better targets however she is an HQ which means in KP missions or various other scenarios she is worth killing. What im going to do, is allocate a few of my light weapons to kill her. It doesnt take big weapons to kill her and there is no need to waste that. I dont know about your lists, but mine have anti-whorde and anti-tank/monster. My big guns are going to kill the heralds and fiends while all my anti-whorde guns are going to gun her down lickity-split. I have tried to use her several times and she always dies very quickly.

mrwittwer wrote:Much better than horrors in all anti-tank respects.

Not against fast vehicles, or vehicles that can shoot like fast vehicles (LRs, Tau tanks), or vehicles that don't need to shoot (rhinos). Vehicles moving over 6" are a major headache for HTH-centered forces to deal with. Admittedly, 'nettes do at least have 4 attacks on the charge... but it's still not really enough.

Also, if they go to ground in cover to keep from getting slaughtered by shooting, they can't charge anything the next turn. Horrors, with their 4++, can shoot, not go to ground, and still have a halfway decent chance at surviving until they can shoot again even without any cover. 'Nettes can't do that. (Which is not to say horrors are really that great, honestly. I mean, BS 3? AP 4? I feel like my guys went to the SW Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy and were handed weapons that were intended to be almost but not quite useful.) But, yeah... having tried both daemonettes and horrors, my horrors almost always get to do something. My 'nettes rarely do

Back to the original issues - I'd agree that Slaanesh DPs aren't a good idea. I've run one multiple times, and he never survived very long. He makes a great target to distract your opponent from other targets... but only because he's expensive, killy, and fragile, which makes him something you really don't want your opponent shooting at.

Slaanesh's DP is cheaper, or 1 DP is enough for 1000 points? Is 130 points too expensive for luring attacks on him?

I run a Slaanesh list so I use 2x Slaanesh DP. You really need Iron Hide on her, plus Unholy Strength is a preference of mine too. I like to give them Musk because it helps wiht mobility and I have recently started cutting wings for Pavane. I actually really like Pavane a lot so far, and I am considering adding the Masque. What both units let you do is DS a little further back to make sure you are not taking as much Lagun and Bolter fire.

With that load out a DP comes in around 160 before Pavane which I think is worth it. A Nurgle or Tzeetch prince is definitely a 'better' choice but that does not make the Slaanesh ones bad. Running 1 prince at 1000 is reasonable, otherwise someone will field a LR and you will have no chance to kill it!

And how 2 DPs helps to deal with LR? I don't get the point. And what's 'bout a full-Tzeentch army-list? Will it be survivable?

Probably not. Without Fiends you really have no close combat potential. It's worth a shot if you want to try to run an all tzenntch army list, but I don't think it is nearly as good as a mixed god list. If you were going to run an all Tzeentch list I would reccomend lots of flamers, fateweaver, tons of troops and maxed out DP's.

Bisturi wrote:And how 2 DPs helps to deal with LR? I don't get the point. And what's 'bout a full-Tzeentch army-list? Will it be survivable?

They have 5 attacks on the charge and roll 2d6 for armor penetration. Each hit gets a damage result about 1/3 of the time. The next best thing to is BoC, which misses 50% of the time and can only glance on a 6.

The problem is that fiends don't survive long enough to get to HtH, and within 1000 points it is difficult to take 2 full squads without cutting down horrors or getting rid of Soul grinder AND DP

@ Bisturi

I understand, I'm just saying that I personally thing you are better going with fiends than Soul Grinders, especially at lower points levels where every lascannon and melta is going into your grinders. That's why I think DP are better at all point levels.

@Calypso

You forget thatmost of the time they require at least a 4+ to hit, reducing their attacks by half. When you face intelligent opponents, your attacks are reduced to 1/6. Assuming LR that means that of all your attacks 5/6 hit, then you require a 10 among 2 dice to penetrate (assuming strength 5) the chances of you getting a 10 or more is (1/6) again. To do anything to a LR you need a 4,5,6 or (1/2). This gives you a total chance of (1/6) x (1/6) x (1/2) or (1/72) to do anything meaningful to a LR. When you say the next best thing, you are wrong, considering BS 3 your chances of hitting are (1/2) X (1/6) x (1/6), these results are actually the exact same. When your bolts are being fired by DP or Heralds with their Higher BS the chances increase even more. I know that cover can effect that, but that is a different story.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually forgot about BOT being AP 1. Which changes the chances of bolt from (1/2) x (1/6) x (1/3) or (1/36). Not assuming cover this is twice as good as DP, considering a cover save of 4+ they are still exactly the same. The other difference that makes BOT better is that is has a 24 inc range as opposed to your princes that only have 6 inc charge and must get close to the enemy to even do anything.

To be frank, daemons aren't a great codex against fast vehicles (especially heavy fast vehicles like LRs), no matter what you do with them. All-Tzeentch can work, for many definitions of the word "work." You're probably better off with fiends than flamers, though.

I suggest one or two Tzeentch DPs, without wings, and with bolt (and maybe gaze). They'll be relatively cheap, but nasty enough in CC that your opponent will need to think about what he's throwing at them, and they won't need those expensive wings to give them range. And, if all else fails, they can still charge a vehicle and possibly take it out. That's either 140 or 160 points, depending on whether you want gaze. A Slaanesh DP at 130 pts, with iron hide, doesn't have many CC boosts... but if you've got a role in mind for one with just the basic stat block, by all means try it out. One without iron hide will simply die - the difference between a 5++ and a 4++ is enormous.

Agreed on all points with Davel.

matthc wrote:@ Bisturi
@Calypso

You forget thatmost of the time they require at least a 4+ to hit, reducing their attacks by half. When you face intelligent opponents, your attacks are reduced to 1/6. Assuming LR that means that of all your attacks 5/6 hit, then you require a 10 among 2 dice to penetrate (assuming strength 5) the chances of you getting a 10 or more is (1/6) again. To do anything to a LR you need a 4,5,6 or (1/2). This gives you a total chance of (1/6) x (1/6) x (1/2) or (1/72) to do anything meaningful to a LR. When you say the next best thing, you are wrong, considering BS 3 your chances of hitting are (1/2) X (1/6) x (1/6), these results are actually the exact same. When your bolts are being fired by DP or Heralds with their Higher BS the chances increase even more. I know that cover can effect that, but that is a different story.

Equipping the DP with Bolt and making it a Tzeetch prince is a good idea to boost its armor kill capability, I am not arguing against using Bolt. I am just mentioning that DP help shore up a weakness in the rest of the army - killing vehicles. Also, against a LR (in our example) the best you can do is glance it. What you really want to do is get a Destroyed result if you are not fielding a MC that can take advantage of the auto hits on it, so that requires a 6 with AP 1 to do so. Even assuming an Immobilized result is good enough - The odds for bolt on Horrors (which wastes the rest of the horror's shooting) is:

Hit - 50%
Glance - 16.7%
Wreck - 33%

2.8% chance to wreck/immobilize

This happens regardless of the speed moved and assumes no cover saves. For a DP on a Flat Out Vehicle (w/o unholy strength):
Hit - 16.7%
-Glance - 11.1%
-Immobilize - 16.7%
--Damage Result - 0.3%/attack

-Penetrate - 16.7%
-Immobilize, Wreck, Explode - 50%
--Damage Result - 1.39%/attack

This is an aggregate 1.7%/attack to yield a damage result. The chance to not damage the vehicle in this case is (100%-1.7%)^5 = 90%, versus 97.2% for cases with Bolt on Horrors.

This also does not count the times when a Stunned or Immobilized result will enable the prince to literally tear apart the vehicle in the next phase. Bolt is certainly a great way to take down vehicles, but on AV 14 a 'Melta' effect to add that extra d6 is really good to have around. Either way these are not 'good' answers to the problem but at least a DP forces vehicles that want to live to move.

I agree with Davel for loadout and you do need Iron Hide on a Slaanesh Prince. At the end of the day though, a Tzeetch Prince with Bolt, and Gaze with some aggressive DS'ing will have the best chance to take down heavy Vehicles and will do really well against lighter ones that Bolt can penetrate more easily.

I guess we were arguing the same thing, the only difference being I thought you were advocating the concepts of CC Princes over Shooty Princes. You really don't need to destroy a vehicle with your bolt you just need to immobilize it as you said you can then tear it apart with your CC creatures.

Well, IMHO, there not very much players using LR in 1000 points games. Also, who says that DP cannot get to CC after shooting the bolt? I have some questions - 1) is it reasonable to get 2 DPs in in 1000k army? 2) Are Bluescribes worth their price?

No one says that you cannot get Princes into CC. It is just that a lot of people prefer to kit out their prince with a CC focus relying on their CC to kill vehicles, while the Tzeentch Prince can do that and still shoot( He usually doesn't get in CC as often with vehicles as he has no wings as they are a waste of points). I would first worry on maxing fiend squads before I looked into Daemon Princes. I also wouldn't go with Bluescribes.

I would run
Tzeentch Herald on Chariot (Maybe 2 of these)
3 squads of fiends (6 each )
Your troops
Tzeentch Princes

I would normally recommend Fast attack choice of hounds but this doesn't fit in your fluff restriction.

Sorry for the confusion, I was advocating them in general as the way to take down armor. I run mine as Slaanesh but that is more theme than anything. They would be MUCH better as Tzeetch but alas...

Blue Scribes are a bit expensive but can be fun. Getting two Princes in 1k is reasonable but you would need to shave down points on Elites/HQ. I think for the cost 1 Prince is fine for 1000 points, especially if you are running Tzeetch Heralds. Personally I like a Slaanesh Herald a bit better, but that is a preference.

1 DP is fine at 1k. Two wouldn't be crazy, but one is fine as long as you have a good number of fiends and/or models with bolt to take care of some vehicles.

I've never used the Blue Scribes. They seem like they'd be useful and fun... at a guess, I'd say that their points value is probably about right, in that it's a difficult to figure out whether or not they're worth the points. Essentially, if you want to be able to use pavane semi-reliably without a KoS and without using a DP (both reasonable goals), they could be worth it. But remember, if they're attached to a squad and they pavane an enemy squad out of cover, the squad attached to them won't be able to shoot at the enemy squad after they're out of cover.

BTW, something to keep in mind for your next few battles: my basic assumptions here are that you're not having trouble against foot SM, footdar, big-bug 'nids, etc. A normal daemon army has little trouble against elite infantry; they have a harder time against vehicles, and sometimes hordes. If you find yourself having a hard time against elite infantry on foot, then I may be overemphasizing my advice.

No problems with elites, I should say. The problem is lots of dice 1 enemy unit can throw, like eldar Warwalkers in squadrons. That's real headache