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First off, I know that I've done almost nothing but post about how worried I am about 8th lately, so sorry for that.

Secondly, for a summary of shooting, artillery, magic, and a of a good amount of the spells in the BRB for 8th Edition you can go here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

Now begins the rant-list type thing, Prepare yourselves

1) With the new rules for shooting in two ranks they now get more shots, more often.
2) They can now take up to 3 cannons and 3 mortars
3) Cannons and Stone Throwers are now "pick a point" to fire, no more guessing (not confirmed but very possible)
4) They get access to ALL of the BRB Lores (Did you see those spells!?!? OMG!)
5) Detachments ignore Initiative when charging (May be errata'd)
6) Warrior Priests' prayers can get past the 12 PD maximum
7) Warrior Priests' prayers can be used to draw out dispel dice easily
8) The Rod of Power (is that what its called?) can store PD/DD for a large boost to magic Def and Off
9) Pistol Range is increased to 12" (Pistoliers much better)
10) Fast Calv get a free move before the game (like the scout USR from 40K)(Outriders can get in position better, Pistoliers can get to the enemy faster)

Now, the only Cons I see are:
1) Low Initiative (3) - However the amout of shooting and magic you put out should disreguard this completely, as whatever actually gets to you, you can easily bring down or just hold up with ranks and banner
2) Low amount of banners if you take too much shooting (for objective missions) - however keep in mind that you can shoot for like 4 turns and spend the last 2 running your banner-holding gunsmen to close objectives. Plus low-cost small units of knights can make good objective grabbers
3)When playing skaven the storm banner will hurt, but I dont think it will hurt enough

If anyone wants to add to these lists just post, ill edit with a little note of who provided the Pro or Con. I'm sure there is plenty that I missed.

P.S. If I'm not allowed to link to other forum sites like warseer, or if there is another issue, please dont close the thread, just PM me and I'll take down whatever is wrong.

zeekill wrote:
Secondly, for a summary of shooting, artillery, magic, and a of a good amount of the spells rumored to be in the BRB for 8th Edition you can go here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

fixed your post a little bit for you.

No sense getting worked up over rumors. I get to read the book on the 15th, thats when im going to start passing judgements and it will still be based on mathhammer and my own experiences. We dont know how the new book is going to handle until a few months afterwards, A rule may look good on paper and end up sucking, so we also need time to test the changes.

ShivanAngel wrote:

zeekill wrote:
Secondly, for a summary of shooting, artillery, magic, and a of a good amount of the spells rumored to be in the BRB for 8th Edition you can go here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

fixed your post a little bit for you.

No sense getting worked up over rumors. I get to read the book on the 15th, thats when im going to start passing judgements and it will still be based on mathhammer and my own experiences. We dont know how the new book is going to handle until a few months afterwards, A rule may look good on paper and end up sucking, so we also need time to test the changes.

Nope, my friend the red shirt (who has access to the book, he even pulled it out for a minute just to tease the drooling fantacy nerds at the FLGS ) has confirmed that most of the things in that thread are correct, and most that are not right-on are worded differently but mean almost the same thing, very few are just rumors

zeekill wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

zeekill wrote:
Secondly, for a summary of shooting, artillery, magic, and a of a good amount of the spells rumored to be in the BRB for 8th Edition you can go here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

fixed your post a little bit for you.

No sense getting worked up over rumors. I get to read the book on the 15th, thats when im going to start passing judgements and it will still be based on mathhammer and my own experiences. We dont know how the new book is going to handle until a few months afterwards, A rule may look good on paper and end up sucking, so we also need time to test the changes.

Nope, my friend the red shirt (who has access to the book, he even pulled it out for a minute just to tease the drooling fantacy nerds at the FLGS ) has confirmed that most of the things in that thread are correct, and most that are not right-on are worded differently but mean almost the same thing, very few are just rumors

Thats what all these rumors are based off of, red shirt, FLGS guy said XXXX.

Until i read the book on the 15th im considering it all as rumors.

For example, it says in that post that rolling double 6's causes loss of control. I was told that was false. I was also told that o&g are going to be stronger then daemons were/are in 7th.

I think empire are going to be better, but a lot of stuff is getting better.

ShivanAngel wrote:

For example, it says in that post that rolling double 6's causes loss of control. I was told that was false. I was also told that o&g are going to be stronger then daemons were/are in 7th.

Yes I was also told that was false, and instead it is if the total casting value rolled is a 1 or you get double 1's you lose control. Thats why I said a few of the things are not correct, but most are or are close.

As for the O&G, ok, but you dont have a list of why do you?

But seriously, if you heard so then ask why and post it, I'd love to hear how they're getting rid of animosity and giving them a forgivable miscast table, as well as giving them access to some the BRB lores (honestly, the only 3 really big things holding them back)(just my opinion) But O&G fluff supports Animosity 100% and I doubt they would get rid of it. Maybe they'll make it 2D6 and you squabble on a 4 or less, lets get them on a 11+ or something in the next book, but before they do that I just dont see it.

Yeah the black shirt said i could ask him yes or no questions about the new rules, and that was it, otherwise he could lose his job.

He confirmed 2d6 magic dice highest is dispell, variable charge, few other things.

He said the double 6's causeing loss of control is false.

He also said in passing Daemons are going to be middle of the road now, and o&g are going to be the new top tier army (course i was buying the o&g book so take this as you will)

my guess on why they are going to be so strong.

Shooting in multiple ranks (their archers are 3 points a pop, thats an insane number of shots).
Horde rules
etc

ShivanAngel wrote:Yeah the black shirt said i could ask him yes or no questions about the new rules, and that was it, otherwise he could lose his job.

He confirmed 2d6 magic dice highest is dispell, variable charge, few other things.

He said the double 6's causeing loss of control is false.

He also said in passing Daemons are going to be middle of the road now, and o&g are going to be the new top tier army (course i was buying the o&g book so take this as you will)

my guess on why they are going to be so strong.

Shooting in multiple ranks (their archers are 3 points a pop, thats an insane number of shots).
Horde rules
etc

I'm taking the O&G top tier with a handful of salt, maybe just sealing the deal on you and that O&G book.

Shooting in multiple ranks (their archers are 3 points a pop, thats an insane number of shots) - True but with their 16" range and average BS of 3, not much is going to come from this

Horde rules - Meh, for a fully decked out unit of Orcs with horde (10 wide, 4 ranks) it will cost 280 pts (plus command), be nearly unmanuverabe, block other units in your army when you start hitting terrain, hurt by animosity, and well, they are still just orcs. It'll hurt first round but after that it isnt so bad. It will be powerful, yes, but much dependant on how you and your opponent set up terrain.

The one thing I would be worried about is 3 Lobbas/6 Chukkas/2 Doom Divers but I'm pretty sure 8th ed or an erratta will put some restriction on War machines (actually that goes for empire as well but thats only one thing in the pros)

Meh, my ancient Chaos Dwarf army could still wipe 'em all out.

I am going to be very interested in seeing how much 2 rank fire changes the empire game plan.

I've seen a few suggestions of using proper 30 Year War pike and shot tactics. Personaly I'm thinking 7 Year War style musket only tactics. Half the trick would be keeping it fun to play with though, rather than a boring stand and shoot list.

Challenger

Yeah keeping it fun for your opponent should be a factor (imo) unless its a major tourny or money is involved.

I personally hate going against gunlines.

Ok i march
ok i roll armor saves
ok panic test

repeat for 2-3 turns

Woot i charge with whats left...

I believe DoC will still be crazy strong. Unless the errata is going to increase their overall pricing, they are still underspriced with brutal stats. I mean, they'll still have Flamers (place random DoC unit here) right?

That aside, I DO believe Empire AND OnG will get much much better in 8th. Caveat:if the supplied rumors are true.

Cheap troops, characters and war machines are the key. I have a feeling "fighty" type hero characters will have a diminished role in 8th. The extra +2 attacks they provide does not really give much bonus in a Stepping Up situation. In fact, it seems like an easy way to get them killed. I think characters in big units will be there to provide buffs to the unit. If you have 20 attacks back, using the Step Up rule...would you rather have those 20 attacks buffed or your hero's 3 attacks buffed? Thats a simple answer: you want to buff those 20 attacks. Best way to do this? The Warrior Priest. With Hatred.

I have to talk about the WP for a moment. I believe he may have become one of the best characters in the game. Give him Armor of Met Iron, to make sure he has survivability on foot (gives him optimum Look Out Sir roll too). He gives Hatred to his unit. That is HUGE with Stepping Up rule. Also, he allows you to run flagellants as core. This goes a long way to help filling out your core % requirement. Next are the bound spells. WP cannot miscast (lose control chart)! At worst, they forget the prayer so the Empire player does not need to worry about putting the WP in a big block of troops. A mage can explode and take out half the unit. One rumor says that there is an option on the Loss of Control table, that causes ALL your mages to explode. Ouch. So no need to worry about a WP exploding. Ok so WP need to roll to cast their prayers. WP actually benefit from this. Yes I know in 7th, we used WP to draw out DD. Well, in 8th, we still can and its better. Each WP only has 1 spell to cast. But it is cast with the bound level added. So thats a +4 to his casts (!!) Currently our st4 prayers are easily dispelled, hence why they draw out DD. So now, even if you throw 1 die, a result of 3+ gives you a nice str7 spell. <--much harder to dispel than our previous st4 spell. Additional upside? What if you *really* needed to get a prayer off? Roll more dice to make sure you do! You can roll up to 6 dice...wow! And you CANNOT miscast! You may lose the spell but oh well, small price to pay. In 8th, you can cast a RiP spell, and CONTINUE casting! Hellllooo WP! I think throwing 1 dice, per WP in your army, each magic phase can have a major cumulative impact over the course of a game. WP are able to attempt to get extra PD/DD though "channeling" so potentially more PD/DD. Nothing in the rumors so far confirms or denies whether WP gets a bonus to dispel. And the Archlector becomes even more sick. +5 to his casts plus all the advantages previously mentioned. On his war alter (large target) his leadership is now 18". The most important thing: we are waiting to see if it is errated or not...the war alter may cast *any* light spell at power lvl 5. This means the big light spell (costing 20+) is easily cast. Throw more dice at the spell if needed. I could go on and on about my Priests=)

Cheap core troops will be crucial as I foresee 8th ed being very bloody. Units are much more vulnerable to warmachines. Bloodthirsters, star dragons, hydras, etc. will be fodder for our cannons. Bring 3 mortars and watch the unit of crazy expensive Blackguard or Temple Guard, etc. be shredded by the time they get across the table. So if a General knows that his opponent can shred any unit he wants to (for the most part), then why bring out big expensive units with a big red bow on them? Keep the units as cheap as possible (Empire, OnG, Skaven...maybe VC). I have a 3k scratch list which includes 2 cannons, 2 motars, 2 rocket batteries, and an engineer with pigeon bombs. If there is a big nasty coming across the table at me, I think I stand an excellent chance to significantly whittle it down before it reaches my line.

Oh I could go on and on but maybe I'll save some hehe. I havent even mentioned the kamakazi 65pt lvl1 mages

Ok one last thinker: Flaggies! Used to, they would get charged, lose the front rank, not hit back..then become a tarpit. That changes with step up rule. Run a full unit of 30 (6x5) with Prophet. Remember you get free reforms, so the chances of an enemy not hitting you in the front is small. So..that means 19 st5 attacks with re-rolls on hits (and probably wounds too). That is going to HURT someone. Not too mention if you get a buff spell off on them like T7, or WS10/I10 hehe.

Yeah, almost everything tat applies to empire, applies to O&G, spear chukka spam, goblin capitan spam, black orcs to reduce animosity, and other rediculousness is going to make them a powerhouse.

But then again, skaven are going to get better, VC are going to get better TK, Ogres, beastmen, lizardmen, and actually just about everyone is going to get better.

But you know who I am really terrified of now is? Dogs of war... Seriously, cheap heros, really (really) wide variety of core choices, PIKES(!) and things like the halfing hotpot and fast cav everywhere are truly going to strike fear into the hearts of anyone who knows someone with about one hundred pikemen. Fights in five ranks, twelve wide, front rank entirely capitans... MY GAWD...

Er, Black Orcs don't reduce animosity Jolly. Last edition they did. This edition they partially mitigate 50% of them by causing an average of two to three kills a turn to the unit their characters are in.

Odominus wrote:I believe DoC will still be crazy strong. Unless the errata is going to increase their overall pricing, they are still underspriced with brutal stats. I mean, they'll still have Flamers (place random DoC unit here) right?

That aside, I DO believe Empire AND OnG will get much much better in 8th. Caveat:if the supplied rumors are true.

Cheap troops, characters and war machines are the key. I have a feeling "fighty" type hero characters will have a diminished role in 8th. The extra +2 attacks they provide does not really give much bonus in a Stepping Up situation. In fact, it seems like an easy way to get them killed. I think characters in big units will be there to provide buffs to the unit. If you have 20 attacks back, using the Step Up rule...would you rather have those 20 attacks buffed or your hero's 3 attacks buffed? Thats a simple answer: you want to buff those 20 attacks. Best way to do this? The Warrior Priest. With Hatred.

I have to talk about the WP for a moment. I believe he may have become one of the best characters in the game. Give him Armor of Met Iron, to make sure he has survivability on foot (gives him optimum Look Out Sir roll too). He gives Hatred to his unit. That is HUGE with Stepping Up rule. Also, he allows you to run flagellants as core. This goes a long way to help filling out your core % requirement. Next are the bound spells. WP cannot miscast (lose control chart)! At worst, they forget the prayer so the Empire player does not need to worry about putting the WP in a big block of troops. A mage can explode and take out half the unit. One rumor says that there is an option on the Loss of Control table, that causes ALL your mages to explode. Ouch. So no need to worry about a WP exploding. Ok so WP need to roll to cast their prayers. WP actually benefit from this. Yes I know in 7th, we used WP to draw out DD. Well, in 8th, we still can and its better. Each WP only has 1 spell to cast. But it is cast with the bound level added. So thats a +4 to his casts (!!) Currently our st4 prayers are easily dispelled, hence why they draw out DD. So now, even if you throw 1 die, a result of 3+ gives you a nice str7 spell. <--much harder to dispel than our previous st4 spell. Additional upside? What if you *really* needed to get a prayer off? Roll more dice to make sure you do! You can roll up to 6 dice...wow! And you CANNOT miscast! You may lose the spell but oh well, small price to pay. In 8th, you can cast a RiP spell, and CONTINUE casting! Hellllooo WP! I think throwing 1 dice, per WP in your army, each magic phase can have a major cumulative impact over the course of a game. WP are able to attempt to get extra PD/DD though "channeling" so potentially more PD/DD. Nothing in the rumors so far confirms or denies whether WP gets a bonus to dispel. And the Archlector becomes even more sick. +5 to his casts plus all the advantages previously mentioned. On his war alter (large target) his leadership is now 18". The most important thing: we are waiting to see if it is errated or not...the war alter may cast *any* light spell at power lvl 5. This means the big light spell (costing 20+) is easily cast. Throw more dice at the spell if needed. I could go on and on about my Priests=)

Cheap core troops will be crucial as I foresee 8th ed being very bloody. Units are much more vulnerable to warmachines. Bloodthirsters, star dragons, hydras, etc. will be fodder for our cannons. Bring 3 mortars and watch the unit of crazy expensive Blackguard or Temple Guard, etc. be shredded by the time they get across the table. So if a General knows that his opponent can shred any unit he wants to (for the most part), then why bring out big expensive units with a big red bow on them? Keep the units as cheap as possible (Empire, OnG, Skaven...maybe VC). I have a 3k scratch list which includes 2 cannons, 2 motars, 2 rocket batteries, and an engineer with pigeon bombs. If there is a big nasty coming across the table at me, I think I stand an excellent chance to significantly whittle it down before it reaches my line.

Oh I could go on and on but maybe I'll save some hehe. I havent even mentioned the kamakazi 65pt lvl1 mages

Ok one last thinker: Flaggies! Used to, they would get charged, lose the front rank, not hit back..then become a tarpit. That changes with step up rule. Run a full unit of 30 (6x5) with Prophet. Remember you get free reforms, so the chances of an enemy not hitting you in the front is small. So..that means 19 st5 attacks with re-rolls on hits (and probably wounds too). That is going to HURT someone. Not too mention if you get a buff spell off on them like T7, or WS10/I10 hehe.

Though you are more or less right about the WP, there is one (confirmed 100% no doubt) that you dont know, its that you Lose Control on Double 6's or any (total) roll of a 1, so rolling 1 die is deadly. Still, throwing one die at it the worst that can happen is you lose your spell so, nbd.

This is the first time I am hearing about this rule. So if a WP rolls a 1 (from what you are saying, this applies to all mages), then not only does the prayer fail, it is forgotten? Mages rolling a single 1 must roll on loss of control chart? Well done and thanks for the new Confirmed rumor!

Even so, I would like to read the brb to make sure exactly what is printed in there. This directly contradicts what the rumor dudes on warseer are saying is confirmed. Are you sure you didnt mean that the prayer just fails? So if a mage rolls a single 1, is it cast with irresistible force too?

From Warseer

Bound spells

If you roll a 1 or 2 when casting a spell, the spell automatically fails regardless of modifiers and the wizard may no longer cast this turn.

* Bound spells are cast like normal spells now, but instead of your caster's power level, you add the level of the magic item. They do not roll on the Loss of Control table, the items are just destroyed if they roll the double 6. Bound abilities like the warrior priests they just forget the spell.

* It is rumoured that miscasts are entirely gone, but are replaced by a combined irresistible force/ miscast table effectively:
* When you roll a double 6 the spell is cast with irresistible force, but the Caster has to roll on the "lost control" chart, which is devastating, and far more worse than the current miscast table.

The black shirt at the GW near where i live said the double 6's causeing a loss of control was totally incorrect. It works exactly the same way it does now.

Misinformation=)

Agree with most of the folks on here - have to wait 4/5 more days and see.
I do like everyone who is throwing the multiple, multiple warmachines out there. Perfect solution - High Elves take 10 Great Eagles. Turn 2, half your army is gone.

Lol! Although the rumor is max 2 rares<3000pts.

It's also rumored that HE will have the slot restrictions lifted or at the very least increased. So the 10 great eagles might be a little OTT, but the point is made.

They still get the 2 for 1 rare?

I mean that rather then having only 2 rare choices under 3k they might not have a limit or keep their higher limit for special and rare.

Back on topic though. Will Empire be OP? I don't think so. There are a few armies which can match them in a similar fashion. They'll probably be more competitive now though.

From the looks of the rumors they're trying to narrow the spectrum of the lower to top tier and give the game a much more balanced feel.

There's supposed to be erratas for the current armybooks, so those may tone down some "broken" elements. At minimum they'll probably change magic items which effect magic phase, which means that regarding the empire, rod of power may not work as it currently does etc.

Odominus wrote:This is the first time I am hearing about this rule. So if a WP rolls a 1 (from what you are saying, this applies to all mages), then not only does the prayer fail, it is forgotten? Mages rolling a single 1 must roll on loss of control chart? Well done and thanks for the new Confirmed rumor!

Even so, I would like to read the brb to make sure exactly what is printed in there. This directly contradicts what the rumor dudes on warseer are saying is confirmed. Are you sure you didnt mean that the prayer just fails? So if a mage rolls a single 1, is it cast with irresistible force too?

From Warseer

Bound spells

If you roll a 1 or 2 when casting a spell, the spell automatically fails regardless of modifiers and the wizard may no longer cast this turn.

* Bound spells are cast like normal spells now, but instead of your caster's power level, you add the level of the magic item. They do not roll on the Loss of Control table, the items are just destroyed if they roll the double 6. Bound abilities like the warrior priests they just forget the spell.

* It is rumoured that miscasts are entirely gone, but are replaced by a combined irresistible force/ miscast table effectively:
* When you roll a double 6 the spell is cast with irresistible force, but the Caster has to roll on the "lost control" chart, which is devastating, and far more worse than the current miscast table.

Yea he read through the whole book I forgot if he said double 6's or double 1's but I know for sure he said that if you one dice it and roll a 1 you lose control. He said it was to get rid of vampires' one dice spamming

In the preview games we played on Saturday double 6's were loss of control and irrestible force and if you fail to cast that wizard can't cast anymore in that phase.

Empire will get some buffs and some nerfs. Where that leaves them remains to be seen.

zeekill wrote:
1) With the new rules for shooting in two ranks they now get more shots, more often.
2) They can now take up to 3 cannons and 3 mortars
3) Cannons and Stone Throwers are now "pick a point" to fire, no more guessing (not confirmed but very possible)
4) They get access to ALL of the BRB Lores (Did you see those spells!?!? OMG!)
5) Detachments ignore Initiative when charging (May be errata'd)
6) Warrior Priests' prayers can get past the 12 PD maximum
7) Warrior Priests' prayers can be used to draw out dispel dice easily
8) The Rod of Power (is that what its called?) can store PD/DD for a large boost to magic Def and Off
9) Pistol Range is increased to 12" (Pistoliers much better)
10) Fast Calv get a free move before the game (like the scout USR from 40K)(Outriders can get in position better, Pistoliers can get to the enemy faster)

1) They don't get more shots unless they buy more models. If a player keeps his unit of 10 handgunners or whatever, he will benefit from a smaller frontage. That is an advantage but it applies to Dwarves and TK and DE and HE and anyone else with missile units, too, some of whom are arguably better.
2 + 3) Fear the misfire. Also, it really, really, really sucks when you roll a '1' on the first to wound roll with a cannon, as that stops the shot. Oh, and prepare to inflict no casualties against Skaven with the Stormbanner.
4) They already have access to all the BRB lores and they need enough PD to make it count, just as everyone else. The new spells aren't that much more devastating really and some are going to hurt the caster more than the opponent. Empire has no Ring, no Tokens - and when someone throws lots of dice at a spell, you turn him into a frog.
5) Detachments do no such thing. The countercharge maneouver describes the complete sequence of who hits whom when with 7th in mind (detachment ->charger ->parent unit) and as such WILL be brought in line with 8th / Ini.
6) What?
7) No more easily than any other spell, as there is no difference - what is your point?
8) It can already do that and you're giving up your other phase.
9) Pistoliers cannot march block anymore, so that's a small advantage.
10) Indeed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Odominus wrote:
Cheap troops, characters and war machines are the key.

To some extent, yes, but those cheap troops will still lose most fights, so it is just as imperative to have something that can hurt stuff.

The WP is certainly not bad but hatred only lasts for one turn. The AoMI is only a single item, so what do you give your BSB? What do you give your other WP? I mean, a single one won't make or break a game. In my experience, unbreakable is pretty nifty but remember that it can still be dispelled at a most inconvenient moment.

The Altar will get FAQ'ed quickly. Don't expect to be able to cast all light spells on 5+.

Ok one last thinker: Flaggies! Used to, they would get charged, lose the front rank, not hit back..then become a tarpit. That changes with step up rule. Run a full unit of 30 (6x5) with Prophet. Remember you get free reforms, so the chances of an enemy not hitting you in the front is small. So..that means 19 st5 attacks with re-rolls on hits (and probably wounds too). That is going to HURT someone. Not too mention if you get a buff spell off on them like T7, or WS10/I10 hehe.

I don't know. Marauders I can see being useful because they cost half as much but I3 T3 no armour will die very very quickly.

Odominus wrote:
Cheap troops, characters and war machines are the key.

To some extent, yes, but those cheap troops will still lose most fights, so it is just as imperative to have something that can hurt stuff.

The WP is certainly not bad but hatred only lasts for one turn. The AoMI is only a single item, so what do you give your BSB? What do you give your other WP? I mean, a single one won't make or break a game. In my experience, unbreakable is pretty nifty but remember that it can still be dispelled at a most inconvenient moment.

The Altar will get FAQ'ed quickly. Don't expect to be able to cast all light spells on 5+.

Ok one last thinker: Flaggies! Used to, they would get charged, lose the front rank, not hit back..then become a tarpit. That changes with step up rule. Run a full unit of 30 (6x5) with Prophet. Remember you get free reforms, so the chances of an enemy not hitting you in the front is small. So..that means 19 st5 attacks with re-rolls on hits (and probably wounds too). That is going to HURT someone. Not too mention if you get a buff spell off on them like T7, or WS10/I10 hehe.

I don't know. Marauders I can see being useful because they cost half as much but I3 T3 no armour will die very very quickly.

ShivanAngel wrote:The black shirt at the GW near where i live said the double 6's causeing a loss of control was totally incorrect. It works exactly the same way it does now.

Double 6's does cause a loss of control. 1 or 2 natural doesn't cause a miscast, just means you can't cast anymore with that wizard.