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Under the SM Landspeeder rules there is the Deep Strike rule.

I was wondering if similar, small skimmer types can also Deep Strike? In the main rule book there is no mention of this, and most of the armies that have similar skimmers have older, pre 5th edition codexes. Logically it makes sense, but I was curious if this is not the case, meaning they can't, is that what is called 'codex creep'?

Examples of similar skimmers that should also gain this ability: Vypers, raiders, Pirannas...

it seems like something that they should turn into a universal rule, no?

I searched but did not see anything on this on Dakka.

If it doesnt say Deep Strike in its special rules profile, then it doesnt have DeepStrike. Its really as simple as that

Unless the unit has the Deep Strike rule, it can't Deep Strike. Yes it is that simple. What one codex says does not affect another codex.

In all fairness, this is like asking "Wow, Fire Warriors have 30" range guns, does this mean my Space Marines have 30" guns too?"

no, it's not like that...

why do SM Landspeeders have deep strike? According to fluff, they deploy from low flying thunderhawks... So, since that is logical, why aren't other similar units allowed that?

I'm not trying to get some special rules, just wanted to know if anyone else felt that there was some inconsistency with the current rules.

Maybe I should have said it that way, since you two addressed this post as if I was wanting something extra....

Master Melta wrote:So, since that is logical, why aren't other similar units allowed that?

Because the rules don't say they can?

Is it logical for Dæmonhunter Assault Cannons to be worse than SM Ones? No, but they are.
Is it logical for 3 or 4 Different Power of the Machine Spirit rules to exist when they have the exact same name? No, but they do.
Is it logical for races who are capable of literally nuking every square inch of a planet from orbit to land and go around hitting things with swords? No, but they do.

Logic has no place in 40k. You do what the rules tell you, and that's it.

Master Melta wrote:no, it's not like that...

why do SM Landspeeders have deep strike? According to fluff, they deploy from low flying thunderhawks... So, since that is logical, why aren't other similar units allowed that?

I'm not trying to get some special rules, just wanted to know if anyone else felt that there was some inconsistency with the current rules.

Maybe I should have said it that way, since you two addressed this post as if I was wanting something extra....

Ah, but every ten minutes Jervis says :

"Time for another Marine Codex, lads!"

And they get cool updates, like flying fish and box-shaped skimmers that fall from the sky out of larger, cooler, box-shaped planes/space ship hybrids.

And then once every four years, a relatively insignificant GW employee says:

"Maybe, perhaps, possibly, we should rewrite a xenos codex and put some new special rules in it so it's more in line with our seven recent space marine codices!"

He shortly finds himself out on the street, looking for a job.



Hope that answered your question.

that makes more sense than the other bits...

All Jump Pack dudes can deep strike, but only select popular skimmers can....

Yay for my marines? Boo for my Eldar?

No-ones making you play you know, You can always not play if the notion of Deep Striking Land Speeders offends your sensibilities.

Or you could try and make a House Rule, though don't expect many people to be excited to let you have a rule you are not meant to have "because Land Speeders can do it".

what? I thought I had to play....


Again, I am not after something, but thanks for continuing to assume that.

I suppose wondering why there are Inconsistencies in the rules is a no-no huh?

it seems like something that they should turn into a universal rule, no?


That gives the impression that you are looking for something.

Master Melta wrote:what? I thought I had to play....


Again, I am not after something, but thanks for continuing to assume that.

I suppose wondering why there are Inconsistencies in the rules is a no-no huh?

Actually, with GW, wondering about the Inconsistencies is half the fun of the hobby!

Not looking for something, I just noticed a difference that didn't make sense and wondered what the rabble had to say...

sounds like it's pretty common and we should expect it.

More like its GWAR. Sometimes youll hate him, other times youll like him. Hell sometimes he makes me laugh. But honestly he did peg your question (although a bit harsh but cmon) rather well. It is like asking "hey I REALLY like the battle cannon on the LRBT, so can I upgrade my bolter to one?"

I know what I was after...

Again, I play marines, and I have a landspeeder that I melta stuff with... i just thought it was odd that similar units don't have the same rule, since it makes sense. I was wondering if it was codex legacy.

It's not like "Nobs have 3 attacks, why don't all unit upgrades" or "Metlas get 2d6 within half, why don't all weapons" or any other comparison that was brought up.

All tanks can ram and tank shock. Why does one skimmer get that rule, but others don't? That's all I was asking.

I wasn't trying to get some dakka-ites to say: "Yeah, all vypers should now get that because the marine's little skimmer does now! Yeah, house rule, FAQ, errata errata errata!"

It kinda makes me feel like I need to put some disclaimer at the bottom of my posts. Maybe this should have simply been in the discussion thread since that was what I was after...

I agree, it should have gone in Discussion! xD

YMDC is really for actual rules questions and discussions.

Oh Mods, please to be the moving nao!

Master Melta wrote:what? I thought I had to play....


Again, I am not after something, but thanks for continuing to assume that.

I suppose wondering why there are Inconsistencies in the rules is a no-no huh?

No, it is not a rules inconsistency, just that other skimmers don't do it.

They are either too precious, or don't have any way to drop down into the battlefield.

This shouldn't be moved, it should just be tossed out.

Master Melta wrote:why do SM Landspeeders have deep strike? According to fluff, they deploy from low flying thunderhawks... So, since that is logical, why aren't other similar units allowed that?

Do other races have a superheavy flyer that they can fit their skimmers in?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Master Melta wrote:why do SM Landspeeders have deep strike? According to fluff, they deploy from low flying thunderhawks... So, since that is logical, why aren't other similar units allowed that?

Do other races have a superheavy flyer that they can fit their skimmers in?

Yes, several of them do in fact.

Space Marines have the Thunderhawk and the Tau have the Manta off the top of my head.

YMDC means that anyone can say how they would play it.

A lot of players see the RaW as a guideline, not as strict law.

Friendly groups often use SM AC for DH.

I feel this thread is in the EXACT right forum.

I, personally, might let you deep strike. Depending on your army and depending on how it would effect our game.

If your army relies on deep striking to easily destroy mine with out me having a chance to retaliate, then I would probably go against it. But if it was just a little extra boost to your force that would make our games more interesting I'd definitely allow it, even encourage it.

Don't be discouraged by people like GWAR who think not playing by RaW ruins the game. He personally ignores "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!" which when taken RaW means that as long as your opponent agrees you can throw RaW out the window.

Quite amusing how RaW really works

But shhh, he might get upset, so let's not mention "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!" since it's just a side note anyway

ihatehumans wrote:I feel this thread is in the EXACT right forum.

Except, it isn't.
This forum is for discussing rules and asking questions about the rules.

"Why can't my Piranhas Deep Strike" is not a rules question, and thus belongs in 40k discussion.

But shhh, he might get upset, so let's not mention "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!" since it's just a side note anyway

TMIR is not mentioned here for two reasons.

Reason one is because TMIR can be used to change anything, so factoring it into discussions makes it a pointless excersise. I can just as easily say "I want all my Marines to be T11 and have 99" of movement. No? Then you are making the game unfun for me, so you must be cheating (as you are knowingly breaking a rule)." As such, trying to bring it up in a discussion about the rules makes it impossible to ever actually discuss anything.

Reason two is rule #7.

Reason one is the same as reason two.

This is a 'codex creep' and 'how you would play it' matter, you indeed answered the RaW side of the argument he brought up.

But then you felt the need to tell him that asking a 'how would you play it' question is always absurd, which it's not.

Many players see 'codex creep' as a serious problem in GW RaW and as such play things 'fairly' by updating old codex with new codex rules, the same way GW did with DH machine spirit rules for their LR in the FAQ. He was clearly asking is there anyone that sees land speeders getting deep strike but say vypers not as being codex creep similar to the machine spirit rules. Fair enough YMDC question imo.

I thought YMDC was for discussing how people play the game, how they use/interpret/adapt GW rules/FAQs to play 'fair' and 'fun' games. I apologize if it is simply a forum for your divine RaW.

YMDC is for asking rules questions.

"Why can't Vypers Deep Strike" is NOT A RULES QUESTION.

But in any case, question has been answered, the usual suspects are coming out to flamebait me, and I'm not gonna take it this time.

And with that, I bid you adieu.

With GWAR gone, feel free to bring up any other inconsistencies, my personal favorite being PAGK not having frag or krak grenades.

Once again, I play it mostly that they have them, unless my opponent tries pulling some RaW dodgyness as well as getting the free grenades (for example, he shoots all models from his open topped chimeras).

ihatehumans wrote:With GWAR gone, feel free to bring up any other inconsistencies, my personal favorite being PAGK not having frag or krak grenades.

Once again, I play it mostly that they have them, unless my opponent tries pulling some RaW dodgyness as well as getting the free grenades (for example, he shoots all models from his open topped chimeras).

Umm... PAGK DON'T get grenades call it the codex creep or whatever, they plain old just don't get it.

Stick with it until the new codex comes out, and by the way, MOST players play RaW, you have a very laid back group from the sounds of it, so stick with that, the YMDC section has no place for you.

There are many inconsistancies between forces, that's just one of the things that makes the game interesting.

Necrons have WBB. Does this mean if you have Eldar and think they should be able to come back up to that your Eldar should get WBB?

Or you don't think WBB is fair so you won't let your Necron opponent use it.

Just because you think every skimmer should be able to deep strike makes it so.

You can either choose to follow the rules of the game or not. That is certainly your choice. You can also choose to re-write any rule or codex to suit your ideas. That again is your choice. These would all fulfill TMIR, but then you might as well stop reading and using the main rulebook at page 2, the rest of the book does not apply to your games.

It would be like sitting down to a game of chess and saying that you think that bishops should be able to move over other pieces like knights can, so you are going to do it. If you want to play by those rules, that's fine. You just won't be playing against me. And that's okay too.

Yeah, I don't know why everyone still thinks that I was hoping to get the rule for my vypers. I was simply curious as to why other similar units didn't get the rule. I need a broken record emoticon!

Just for fun, how many units have Deep Strike in their Special Rules? I don't mean the ones that get it due to type or equipment as laid out in the rule book.

Master Melta wrote:
Just for fun, how many units have Deep Strike in their Special Rules? I don't mean the ones that get it due to type or equipment as laid out in the rule book.

That would be a monumental task! It is not always specifically mentioned that a unit has the deep strike special rule. For example, space marine terminators don't have the deep strike rule, but they wear terminator armor whick allows deep strike.
A marine assault squad doesn't have deep strike listed in their special rules rule, but they are jump infantry and JI can deep strike.

Seems kind of silly to assume all skimmers should Deep Strike just because one can do it. Should all infiltrators also outflank because genestealers can? That's the same sense that this makes.

You are trying to generalize a special rule with a unit type that already has special rules. Skimmers have special rules already and they don't include Deep Strike. The SM Landspeeder just happens to have it as a special rule. This is also backed up by fluff that they are dropped off by Thunderhawks. Otherwise, skimmers do just that - they skim over the ground. They aren't flyers.

One of the reasons they don't have Deep Strike:

Look in your BRB and you'll notice that under "Skimmers" it does not mention Deep Strike. There are several rules outlined there which all skimmers benefit from. Similarly, there are rules which all Jump Infantry, Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, etc, benefit from.

While Scouts are an infantry squad with Infiltrate, not all Infantry squads have Infiltrate, as Infiltrate is not specifically designated to Infantry squads in the BRB.

Codex creep is essentially two codices which feature the same unit (for example SM and Grey Knights both feature Land Raiders) but in one Codex the unit benefits from additional rules, due to that Codex being more recently (or less recently!) updated.

One skimmer, such as the Land Speeder, has Deep Strike, but this would only be codex creep if another codex features the exact same unit, and it does not have Deep Strike.

thanks for the codex creep definition Nightwatch.

I don't think the task would be that monumental, since I don't think there are many that have the deep strike rule listed in their codex... which means that some similar units in the game, regardless of codex, have the rule.(something that many of you seem to think is a silly line of thinking... )

I think that kind of explains how one could derive curiousity from the situation.