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Right now, without having seen the new codex, I would play something like this:

Master of the Ravenwing on Speeder

2x Full Ravenwing Squadrons- 6 bikes, 2 melta guns, powerfist?, attack bike w/multi-melta, Tornado
2x 1 Tornados
1x10 Assault Marines- 2 flamers, powerfist

1x 10 Man Devastators squad w/ 4 lascannons, rhino

That still nets you alot of mobility, 5 assault cannons (1 BS5 twinlinked) 4 meltas, 2 multi-meltas, and 4 lascannons. Also has something like 13 scoring units. That rhino would be used for mobile terrain for the assault marines.

That army sounds cool but would it really be that competitive? It is quite small for sure. You can do a lot more with Ultramarines to be completely honest.

- Greenie

You will most definately see some of the minatures mixed into my Word Bearers army. I have thought about a Dark Angels army, but too many people in my gaming group has expressed an interest in them as well, and they don't see them as uncompetitve.



Scouts may have a use in Deathwing (if they have access to homers still) and Ravenwing for there ability to deploy forward. Though I would agree that in a normal army, the elite slot kills them.



Yes, but what i saw of the HQ choices, their lack of Wargear access is made up of all the things they get standard. For example, Dark Angel Librarians automatically come with powers.



The Combat Squad rule does ofset the 10-man restriction. 5 Marines with a special weapon is desposible. In my army evaluation, I looked at them as assault blockers, they run up on an advanceing Assault Army, charge and die 7" + away from your line shootieness. Then you shot back with the crazy amount of shooting availible to them. They can field the equivalent of 6 Devestator squads as their heavy support.

I believe the Powerfist is properly priced. A powerfist Veteran in the Dark Angels is what 55 Points (you get the Veteran alrady anyway), in the Space Marine Codex the same was 45 Points if I remember correctly. Is a ten point increase for a hidden powerfist that bad? I don't think so.



I liked it. It is more clearly defined what everybody has and what things are replaceing what. No more "my Lascannon guy has a bolter" anymore. I don't understand why people are complaining about the constant flipping. How many times do you need to know what a powerfist does or what your powers do. I don't know about you, but after a while of playing an army, you rarely need to look at your codex during a game.

So the DA Librarians come with powers. You can choose the powers you like for Space Marine Librarians. Who here is going to say that a new DA Librarian is better than a Space Marine Librarian? Wyrm... what can I say about that one? Ten points extra for the powerfist is ten points and it adds up. Why should DA have to pay extra? Is that part of the new coolness factor Jervis was going for? If so I say he missed the mark. Put the new DA codex next to the new eldar codex and tell me who got the better end of the bargain. I have played DA for well over ten years now. The new codex sucks the big one. The constant flipping is a pain. Actually it is enough of a pain that I am not even going to bother buying the new codex. Luckily for me my army is painted pre-heresy (black) so I can run them as a successor Chapter and use the rules for Ultramarines. DA were pretty good with the second version of the rules written by Andy Hoare for third edition. You could do a lot of cool stuff and build an army with lots of character. DA is all about character. If you do not plan to play the army or have never played it then your opinion is just that... only an opinion from an outsider that has not invested a lot of time and money into this chapter. I am much more interested to hear what other DA players think about this dark horror penned by Jervis. Being a DA player is truly a painful experience. I remember when we had to pay for stubborn and BA still gets furious charge for free. If GW wants to push this load of fresh rubbish off on us then that is okay, because I will just play something else... something fun and competitive... not the new anti-Marine Dark Angels fer sure.

- Greenie

What the heck is up with losing Terminator Honors? That’s moronic. REQUIRING it made sense, as all HQs are members of the Deathwing, and therefore are Terminators/have that level of training/experience. Bloody idiocy.

That aside, I’m going to at least get the codex and give it a try before I abandon my chapter. I've only played them using the current list (since Dec 04), but I'd rather not switch chapters if I can help it. The following is some speculative list tinkering based on the rumors so far.

My usual list in 1850 would be something like: jumppack chaplain, 10 man tac in Rhino with fist, missile & melta, 10 tac in rhino w/fist, las & flamer, 6 tac in razor w/las,& flamer, 6 tac w/las& plas, 6 tac w/plas & plas, 1 Tornado, 8 assault marines w/fist & 2 plas pistols, vindicator, 3 las pred, and 8 man Dev squad w/ 4 missiles.

This list definitely takes some hits. I’m going to lose some firepower no matter what, but I think I can still make a decent army which will be very similar.

Tentative changes-
Chaplain: Much the same.
10 tac w/fist, missile, melta: will be 10pts more expensive for the fist. I’ll probably actually drop the extra armor from the rhino. That saves 15pts, for a net savings of 5.
10 tac w/fist, las, flamer: 15pts more expensive. I’d either drop the extra armor to offset and keep them the same, or downgrade the las to a missile launcher and save points.
6 tac in razor w/las, flamer: Probably just go 5 with plasma. Cheaper, and won’t have the long range anti-tank, but becomes a dedicated mobile unit and can still use the plasma to fry termies, monstrous creatures, or marines.
6 tac, las/plas and 6 tac, plas/plas. 10 man squad, split into las and plas combat squads. I lose a heavy and a special, but save some points.
Tornado: Should be the same.
8 Assault marines: Ditto.
Vindicator: Hopefully the same. If it takes some weird hit, might swap out (see below).
3 Las pred: Rumor says this is more expensive. Can anyone tell me how much more? Might swap.
8 Devs, 4 ML. Use the points saved above (should be about 91pts depending on any changes to the tanks and chappy, and maybe more if the razor also gets a price break) to upgrade the devs to 10 men, break into combat squads, probably upgrade two of the ML to Lascannons. That would be 60pts at current prices, which hopefully leaves more than enough to cover any increases on the pred/vindi/chappy.

If the 3 las pred gets some preposterous price increase, I might drop a tac squad (or half of the las/plas pair) to get a second full devastator squad, again broken into combat squads.

Based on the plan above…

Losses:
1 attack on my chaplain (no more Termie Honors)
Extra armor on my transports (not as critical in 4th anyway, since units can still disembark even when Stunned, and I spend less time in the things anyway)
1 marine (and I may be able to buy him back depending on leftover points after upgrading the devs)
2 missile launchers, 1 plasma cannon, and a flamer.

Gains:
1 lascannon
One scoring unit by splitting the devs, the option to split the rhino squads as well if I really thought it was a good idea.
More points in scoring units. The cheaper transports and more expensive stuff shift some points out of the non-scoring elements and into scoring units.
More task-focused units.

It’s definitely not an improvement, but it still looks viable. If I drop something to add another Devastator squad, I might even be able to get my guns back around the number I had before, possibly with the gain of yet another scoring unit.

Any thoughts? Anyone have any more codex info they want to share that would bear on this? Any changes I’m missing to characters, assault squads, Razorbacks, the Pred or the Vindi?

Anyone know if there is any restriction on the number of heavy weapons in dev squads under 10 models?

Predator and drop pods cost more now. Rhinos without extra armor could be a liability.

- Greenie

I appreciate your pain, Green Bloater, but I'd appreciate details more.

How much does the pred cost? The rumor I heard was that 3 las Anni is more expensive, but Destructor (or Anni w/HB) might be cheaper. Any info on Vindicators or Devs?

Pods for 50pts will hurt. I have 8 built and painted to a friendly play standard, so I will probably have to go C:SM instead of DA if I want to pod. But that's not the main way I play the army anyway, so I'm not crying.

Extra armor is substantially less important in 4th than it was in 3rd. Is it worth 5pts? Sure. 15? Maybe not.

I wish I could tell you more. I had a long look last night but it probably won't be until this Friday that I can look again. I will see what I can see and report back.

- Greenie

What the hell is all the ranting about not getting terminator honors? They do get it. The Command HQ squads are vets. when I looked at the codex, it was built into their statline. A2. Reread it. The DA codex isn't as bad as everyone is claiming it is. The flexibility with scoring units paired with focused units, makes this codex much better than the dull and boring Vanilla marine codex. I also don't see the Scouts as an elites slot a liability. I see it as an advantage. Nine times out of ten, if you are running heavy on scouts, you probably aren't fielding termies anyways. Secondly, the scouts will be an extremely versatile units with a mix of shotguns and close combat weapons. As to the person that was complaining that only Azrael can take the sword of secrets...good...he was supposed to be the only one to wield it anyways as he is the chapter master...and only they had the right to carry it into battle. This whole debate reminds me of how many people were pissing and moaning about the Eldar codex...the funny thing is...you don't hear from them anymore.

Capt K

The nay sayers always moaned about new codecies until the brave few figure out how to make it work. I remember past posts saying how Nids would never work and just recently that Eldar were getting nerfed. In hindsight both seem do be doing fine. The only thing peculiar to me is taking away options after the fact from the regular marine dex. Makes me wonder what the playtesters were play testing when using assault cannon rules. Especially in term squads and the sheer number of fire power 2 Donkey cannons add in combination with the ability to deepstrike or pod.

I thought destructors were cheaper and annilators were more expensive? I didn't get a chance to verify that rumor but seems to keep with the overall changes (ie lascannons getting more expensive).

Overall I think the DA got the nerf stick but I think that is more to do with the Space Marine dex being a bit too good then the DA dex being bad. They probably should have waited to release any new marines under this new system until the SM redux, that way the umpteen DA players weren't stuck with an inferior dex for several years.

Anyways, I think a good DA list will need to make use of the extra stuff that the units are bundled (like vet sgts, pistols, grenades,etc.) The list below is a 1750 list using this principle for a battle company type list (no deathwing or speeders). As you can see, every tactical has a vet with a weapon, as it'd be a waste not to make use of that ability.

Company Master -- 85ish
2x Dread -- 210ish
3x 10 man Tactical: lascannon, flamer, powerweapon 615
2x 10 man Tactical: lascannon, meltagun, powerfist, rhino 510
3x Predator destructor -- 330ish

So you have a decent firebase and firepower, some counter charge, mobile elements and the tools to deal with most army types. The 5 special/weapn vet sgt units can use the rhinos for cover or stay around the fire base for counter charge. It's not perfect (escalation would be a bit rough) but its a start.

I like the Space Marine codex and plan to start playing it now. DA is not what it used to be by a long shot, not that they were ever that good to begin with. And no DA do not get terminator honors, if they did they would be listed as having A4, not A3. Except for an AV14 landspeeder whatever DA has, Space Marines have it better and a lot more flexibility. Anyone who says DA is a good codex needs to have their head examined.

"The flexibility with scoring units paired with focused units, makes this codex much better than the dull and boring Vanilla marine codex."

Space Marines have traits, terminator command squads, veteran skills, selectable pyschic powers, Honorguard, Tyrannic War Veteran, good special characters, terminator squads with two heavy weapons, 30 point drop pods, characters that can select their wargear, and a lot of other nifty stuff. How can you call that boring?

"I also don't see the Scouts as an elites slot a liability. I see it as an advantage."

Right.

- Greenie

Greenie, recheck the statlines again for vets. Veterans base stat line is 2 attacks (1 base + 1 for termie honors)...add in 2 close combat weapons and you are at 3. They get 4 on a charge. The DA command squads are automatically vets. Check their statline..base 2 attacks. They are vets.



More like people need to calm down and absorb what they read. People were howling and crying when the Bugs book came out, moaned how nerfed the Eldar would be when their book came out....but sadly you don't hear from those people anymore...additionally both those books have some of the best competitive builds right now...funny that..



Because 90% of the stuff in the vanilla codex is no-brainer choices and ultimately all marine armies all end up looking the same, or taking the same healthy dose of donkey-cannons. So in the end, it is bland and unimaginative. While I like Ultramarines, I ended up selling my army because it was getting too easy to win with and the game play was boring. What you seem to be missing is that most of that flexibility that the vanillas have is still in the DA codex (I would argue that the DA tactical squads are better since they have Bolt Pistols standard). Most of the cool options are built in and in some cases offer a points savings. I'd much rather have a Librarian with all the powers than choose. Now that I pay one price, I get them all. Perfect flexibility since I can use whatever powers I want, when I want. Who says that the special characters for DA blow? The DA have the ability to increase the amount of scoring units by splitting their units...which make their Devs even better than vanilla marines. Yeah...the suck all right. Additionally, how anyone can claim that having scouts in the elite slot as being a liability. So they move into the elites slot...how does that matter? I think having Str 4 assault 2 guns is a good trade off. They are one of the few foot units now that can take 3 actions in a turn. Hardly a liability.

Capt K

Yeah, but it's not that good, either. This particular rule really captures the essence all the DA rumors I've heard so far. They're vanilla Marines, but worse. I mean, is 25 points too much to pay for a Power Fist? No... I'd still put them on my Assault squad Sarge if they cost 25. But I don't have to pay 25 points, I pay 15.

What could the logic possibly be that says that DA need to pay more for a Power Fist than vanilla Marines?

The loss of Terminator Honors is also a pointless slap in the face with no real basis in fluff. Does anybody ever choose NOT to give a 100+ point character an extra Attack for 10 points?



Unless they're Infiltrating Homers for the Terminators...

Making Scouts Elites doesn't make a ton of sense as I understand the fluff, and it's doubly useless when they force 10 man squads, which frees up even more Troops slots.



He's talking about the HQ choices, not the veterans.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 02/05/2007 3:17 PM
Because 90% of the stuff in the vanilla codex is no-brainer choices...

If 90% of a Codex is useful that you could considered it a 'no brainer', then I'd call it a successful Codex, not a boring one. The boring Codices are the ones where there are very few no brainers, and everything else sucks.

BYE

ID
DT
COD
Vets
RR?

Posted By Phryxis on 02/05/2007 4:16 PM

Is a ten point increase for a hidden powerfist that bad? I don't think so.

Yeah, but it's not that good, either. This particular rule really captures the essence all the DA rumors I've heard so far. They're vanilla Marines, but worse. I mean, is 25 points too much to pay for a Power Fist? No... I'd still put them on my Assault squad Sarge if they cost 25. But I don't have to pay 25 points, I pay 15.

What could the logic possibly be that says that DA need to pay more for a Power Fist than vanilla Marines?

  I believe that the logic is that Codex marines pay too little.  Codex creep is a Bad Thing.  The new DA codex is an attempt to stop codex creep.  The new Space Marines Redux in the pipeline and the new Chaos codices will presumably bring the two most powerful codices down to a more reasonable level of balance.  Yes, it sucks that everyone else has to play against these overpowered codices until GW gets around to revising them, but them's the breaks, kids.  It would sure be nice if every armylist, played by a competant general, could stand a chance against every other armylist, instead of the imbalanced hodge-podge we have now (Kroot Mercs vs. Iron Warriors?)

I generally agree that it's a bad thing, but I'd also argue that "creep" can be in any direction. In the case of the DA, it appears to be a nerfward direction. So, while I'd agree that creep is undesirable, I'd argue that inconsistant up and down creep is the worst sort of all.

Slow upward creep is, really, not the worst thing in the world, both for GW's sales, and for the game. If each new Codex is a tiny bit better, it drives people to build new armies, and it constantly changes the power dynamics of the game.

So, I'd prefer they balanced the Codices, but if things have to creep, I'd prefer a slow, gradual uptick in power levels. The notion of reversing the trend seems foolish to me. If Codex SM represents the high point in creep, then just release all subsequent Codices at a level on par with that, and be consistent about it.

Let's look at some lists, shall we? (this is based on points cost from memory, but I will be as conservative as possible.


Deathwing

I am going to assume that the Master of the Deathwing is 200 points.

Now, each Terminator Sqaud cost 215-225 plus 35 for the Assault Cannon. So average is about 250. Since they are troops choices, I will field 5 squads of five which nets me 1250 + 200 for the character nets me 1450. That leaves me four hundred points to spend on extra goodies. I can easily field 3 Individual squads of Land Speeder Tornados, which takes me to 1735, and I can fill out the rest with elite scouts or Ravenwing bikers to get my homers far forward.

That is 25 Terminators, the same as a Lysanderwing. Sure the Lysanderwing may have 13 Assault Cannons to my 8, but they have one turn to shoot me off the table before my Lightning Claws own them.

Ravenwing

Say that the 6 Bike, one Land Speeder Attack Squadron is roughly 350 (based on current points with 50 added on for Veteran Sergents, increased Assault Cannon cost what have you)

Now say I take 3 of those as my troop choices, so for 1050 Points I am placing 9 Scoring units on the table. 6 of those are three man bike squads, 3 of those are Land Speeders.

Now say I take three more Land Speeders as Fast Attack for 300 points (that's counting an increased cost for the assault cannon).

Now, for roughly1350, I am fielding 6 Land Speeders total and six Assault Cannons, flanked with 6 Bike sqauds. Add in 200 for the Master of the Ravenwing and you have 1550, That is 300 points left to spend on a Terminator Squad, Scouts, etc.

You can go really crazy and up the squad size of the Land Speeders. You can field 5! in a squadron, sure only one can have an Assault cannon, but you can field almost 15 Land Speeders in the new codex. All can be armed with Multi-melta and even Godxilla Nids will fear that.

The definition of redux is to be brought back. Many are falling under the rumored assumption that the GW term Space Marine Redux means that Space Marines will be brought back in line with the new Dark Angels codex. Look at the definition again - to be brought back. There is also a rumor this codex will provide full rules for other chapters such as Ravenguard and Imperial Fists.

- Greenie

And you will never catch them. You can't Assault the turn you Deepstrike. They've got 24" range on their Assault Cannons, and they can move as fast as you can. You can chase them around all day, while they shoot you with more than twice the firepower you shoot back with.

Should you ever have the good fortune of catching them, it will be readily apparent to them, and they'll assault first, immediately after molesting your squad with twin Assault Cannons.  Yes, Lightning Claws are great on Terminators.  But so are Power Fists.

Good luck finding terrain to hide a unit of five. Good luck finding terrain to hide 15 total. Landspeeders are great, but in limited doses. In single model units, they're a nice fast chunk of firepower. More than that, and there's always a piece of AV10 pudding hanging out of cover.

The problem with all the fantastic ideas you're coming up with is that they all fall victim to at least one of these three problems:
1) Vanilla Marines can do it.
2) Vanilla Marines can do it for less.
3) The idea isn't that fantastic.

There isn't a whole lot that the Dark Angels got over C:SM at all. The biggest thing from what I can tell is the fact that Devastator squads became a whole lot better with the combat squads rule: 5 Marines with two heavy weapons each is a lot better than the normal 5 or 6 Man Tactical squad with a heavy weapon (las) and a special (plas).

The problem is that outside of the incredible firepower and number of units that can be done with your three heavy support slots, there isn't a whole lot that's REALLY good. The way I look at Marine Armies is that you build something to give you support (ie Lascannons) and then you take things to move forward and do some work killing things. For the "best" marine build that involves Las/Plas squads, Speeders, and Terminators w/ Assault Cannons as the best things you can probably take. Assault Marines and Predators follow up behind those choices as the next optimal units to take - IMO.

I can see that for putting out a crazy amount of firepower you could take 2 10 Man Devastator Squads w/ 4 Lascannons (combat squad'd out to 4 5 Man Squads w/ 2 Lascannons) and then if you want more long range support one 10 Man Dev squad w/ 4 Heavy Bolters (again combat squad'd out). Or you could go the cheap route and get a similar amount of firepower out of the cheaper Predator Destructor w/ HB Sponsons.

Troops present the biggest question now. The default choice is Tactical Squads but the only way I see them actually doing anything worthwhile is being 10 Marines strong and using a Rhino to rapid fire something and then absorb a charge with a PF sarge. Problem is Rhinos aren't the hardiest things in the world. The only other choice I can see being really worth it as Troops is Ravenwing squadrons, which require the Master of Ravenwing which isn't the worst HQ you can take.

Problem is that Ravenwing Squads are nice but EXPENSIVE and actually Fragile for what you pay for them. Sure you can turn 1 assault, but then you're throwing 6 or 7 30+ Point Models into assault that will just get eaten by power fists. Granted the ability to drive up, rapid fire bolters and pop off 2-3 melta shots AND then charge in isn't that bad - it's going to be tough to pull off effectively against other powerful builds (especially Nids & some Eldar lists).

So the choice of troops is going to be up to personal preference, but one option is to just min them out completely - two five man squads with Plasma, and move on to other areas of the list.

Elites - BLEH.

Terminators, I just see as way too useless without the second heavy weapon AND the loss of Vet skills. I've been really enjoying my CML + Tank Hunting Termies, but then I have two CML's and Tank Hunters makes them good against almost anything. Even if you look at Terminators as Assault Terminators with a heavy weapon, I just don't see a whole lot of use for em since if they're assault terminators they need a LR or LRC to actually work.

Dreads, I didn't read their entry completely, but I think they went up in costs. A single Drop Podding Dread with Heavy Flamer + Assault Cannon (and Venerable if it's available) is always a nice surprize, but it's a lot more expensive now so it's not the beset choice.

Vet squads - Not bad. I think they all have 2 attacks a pop base and they're 20 pts/model. Not too shabby. If you really wanted something nasty to throw at your opponent these guys may be a good buy - if a little expensive.

Scouts - Um, I don't think they were worth it as a troop choice and I certainly don't think they stand out as particularly useful in Elites. Maybe the Sniper Scouts would prove effective as troop choices, but as elites they're pretty weak. Also the fact that Ravenwing bikes get homers and scout moves means that using these guys as infiltrating teleport homers isn't so great anymore. They may be cheaper, but they also take an elite slot. It may not be so bad since the Elite slots aren't so contested now because the choices are mediocre now.

Fast - Well at least it's useful.

Ravenwing Support squads - Good but expensive and fragile as already stated. Given what they do, I think they actually aren't useful as a Fast attack choice, since the other options for using those fast slots are actually pretty good by comparison. I think these guys are best used as Troops. They should be maxed out in size and take the Tornado as these are best in squads of 1 anyway.

Speeder Squadrons - One Land Speeder Tornado has always been my fast attack unit of choice. I don't like taking multiples of speeders in a squadron if I can help it, so the DA restrictions don't hurt me so much. I think speeders are best in squads of 1 anyway. But since Fast Slots are going to be at a premium unless you take the Master of Ravenwing, it's hard to just blow all 3 fast slots on 3x1 Speeder Tornado.

Assault Marines - Probably the most useful "move forward and kill stuff" unit that the DA have now that terminators got nerfed. You're forced into using the big squad of 10, but 10 Assault Marines pack a punch and can take some hurting. I believe that these guys can be combat squad'd but only one of them would have the PF Sarge so it's kind of crappy to split them up. One or two squads max is what I'd run. These can be pretty good with a min'ed out Tac Squad with a discount Rhino to provide the mobile wall for them to advance. At 35 Points for the mobile wall, that's not so harsh anymore.

HQ

VERY MEDIOCRE.

Losing the ability to completely customize your HQ's pretty much sucks. No more Fury or Fear for the Libby's. The hellfire power is decent, but mind worm is near useless since almost any model you'd want to hurt (Squad Sarges with Fists/CC Weapon of doom) will have a high enough LD to not sweat the LD tes. Hellfire is nice, but you have to get close and that's not the best thing.

Chaplains, I didn't even see if Chaplains can still take Jump Packs. If they can't then I think they're pretty much dead in the water.

A Company Master would be nice for LD10 all around, but I think that you're forced to buy the Iron Halo now which is nice but it puts the cost up.

The only one who really stands out is the guy who gives any squad he joins a 4+ Invulnerable save and the Master of Ravenwing. Both are expensive.

The biggest hit is that you can't take big command squads and you can't take terminator command squads, but the latter isn't so bad because termies are pretty crappy now.

Honestly the best build will probably be Ravenwing squads in troops, Master of Ravenwing (because you have to and he's probably the most useful), 3x1 speeder in fast, and as many Lascannon Dev's as you can fit. Everything else seems fun, but I don't see it being effective for tourny play (not with SAFH & Pod marines, Mech Eldar/Tau and Godzilla running around).

Nice comments, Voodoo Boyz. At least you are looking at the lis objectively instead of blindly dismissing it as crap.

To address Phryxis:



I understand you point, but that is why you would most likely see Ravenwing support for the deathwing as they can tie units up until the Terminators arrive.

Another option is to box the Lysanderwing in, I.E. to surround the bulk of his force and close the cap.

Powerfists are good in assault, but any Terminator Sqaud, no matter how many Assault Cannons it has, is going down to anything that can put a lot of higher Initiative power weapon attacks. Even if the Lysanderwing tries to deny them the charge by charging them, they still have three attacks each standing still. A typical 5-man / 2 Assault Cannon Terminator squad will only kill a statistical 1.46 Terminators (.34 Storm Bolters, .42 rending, .7 Assault Cannon) from shooting. And if the Deathwing player made Lysander go first, all it has to do is drop within 6" next to an opposing terminator squad (not hard with the fast homers they have). They can try and move 6" away, but you have a 12" threat range wherever you land. Say the Daethwing loose two Terminators due to enemy shooting, they still will have an Assault Cannon, killing 1.12, and two lightning claw terminators can kill 1 or two on the charge as well, evening things up a little.

There are a lot of things that have to happen just right on both sides, but a Lysanderwing versus Deathwing will not be an automatic win for Lysander.



Good luck killing 15 Land Speeders, but even so. My other idea has 6 individual squadrons. That is awsome!





But not in the same way, whether the differences are that bad for the Dark Angels will only pan out in actual gameplay. Sometime, I believe, the differences will work in the DA's favor.



They can specilize for less to be sure, but Dark Angels have an extreme amount of flexibility in their units. You choose in deployment if you want to seperate into combat squads. Almost everybody is given a Bolt Pistol, making them more effective on the move than C:SM. Characters can join units before deployment. With the Dark Angels you literally can adapt to any situation or army you find facing.



People said the same thing about multiple Carnifexes when the Tyranid codex was being discussed.

I think you're being a little confident there with respects to Lysanderwing vs. Deathwing. If you throw Bikes at normal Termy squads to pin them in place he's winning out. Your Bike Squads will be lucky to live past their initial assault (if they're 3 Bikes strong) and even with 6 Bikes you're going to be taking a ton of expensive casualties, enough where the Lysander player will win out because each powerfist can easily take out a 30+ Point SM Bike Model.

Bikes vs. Terminators isn't a terrible thing though since you can rapid fire twin linked bolters AND throw in 3 Melta shots (2 Meltaguns, 1 Multi Melta Attack Bike) to thin out the termy squad.

Honestly with the way Terminators work, you're better off with more Bike Squads, they'll put out more firepower and have better assault potential. The mobility is nice too.

The problem is well, they're Space Marine Bikes. How many space marine bikes do you see running around in SM Lists now, let alone in Tournament SM Lists. They're over 30 Points a model and they die just as easily to a Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Plasmagun, or Powerfist. Think how common those guys are. Sure you can turbo boost around for the 3+ invulnerable, but everyone and their mother's codex can put out a ton of S6 or higher shots that can overload your turbo save and every casualty is worth quite a bit of points.

In fact the only thing that really gets my attention for the Ravenwing Squads is that they net you another Tornado, but for how many points for the 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike (with Multi-Melta) and THEN the increased cost of the Tornado. Maybe the fact that I run these squads in my friendly Ultramarine lists but I'm thinking some Special Weapon/PF Sarge Tac Squads in Rhinos may be the better choice. 250 Points nets you 10 Marines, a Power Fist Sarge, a Plasma or Melta Gun, and a Rhino with Extra Armor. With Devastator Lascannon Squads & 3x1 Speeder for support, two of the Above Tac Squads may just work out. It's pretty easy to hide two rhinos in deployment.

Could drop a speeder and take one assault squad or one ravenwing squad (with the speeder added back on) for more support.

I see the Dark Angels needing a lot of PF Squads running around since being all shooty isn't going to work for them anymore, they need assaults to win and it's going to be based around having 9 other T4 3+ Save bodies protecting the Power Fist.

In this respect Vet squads may be pretty decent if I'm remembering right and they all have 2 attacks base.

Codex's Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are no longer the most powerful armies. Most abundant armies yes. Every codex since 4th edition started has been designed to kill Space Marines. They were the benchmark. Now they are a struggle to win with. Can force a tie in most situations but winning is much harder. In an objective based game Chaos Marines stink. Most armies have the Equivalent of a Land Speeder for contesting/taking objectives. Chaos Marines have to sink points into overcosted Bikes and Raptors. Both of the armies have their strengths but their weaknesses aren't points equivalent. That is why so many armies have such similar builds.

Is this confirmed? If it's true, it's a major upgrade to the Devs. It gives you more efficient ways to use your Heavy Support slots (although I haven't run into too many force org problems with Marines), but more importantly it lets you split fire, effectively giving you free Long Fangs. Now you can fire two of you H Bolters at that squad of Bugs, and if you luck out and kill them all, then you can fire the other two H Bolters elsewhere. It's a nice option to have.



If the Rhino is indeed 35 points, it becomes attractive to run it that way, and just deal with the associated problems. You're giving your Marines considerable mobility, and at only 3.5 points each (averaged out amongst the squad), they're nearly as fast as Assault Marines, but cost significantly less.



I prefer the 10 man Assault Squad, so this isn't a big deal.



Lose Jump Packs and Term Honors, and Chaplains might as well not show up. Litanies of Hate isn't very hateful if you can't get the charge.



Sure, a good idea, but it falls under the "Marines can do it for less" banner. See, you're talking about combined arms, using units in concert, playing smart, etc. That's fine. But he can play smart too. If you have to play smart to make your gameplan work, and all he has to do is say "yes pls" to 39 Assault Cannons in his list, you're fighting uphill.

Again, it's not that DAs can't win, it's that they're clearly inferior to vanilla Marines. Not clearly because they're SO totally awful, but clearly because they're so similar, so nearly the same, but with added goodies like 25 point Power Fists, no Term Honors, arbitrary limits on Tac squad sizes and Assault Cannon counts.



It's actually 1.78.

Assault Cannons (8 shots) : 8 * ((1/6 * 2/3) + (1/2 * 5/6 * 1/6)) = 1.45
Storm Bolters (6 shots) : 6 * (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6) = .33

By comparison, the Lightning Claws attacking back:

Claws (6.66 attacks) : 6.66 * (1/2 * 3/4 * 2/3) = 1.665

And their Fists...

Fists (10 attacks) : 10 * (1/2 * 5/6 * 2/3) = 2.78

Which is, on average, your entire squad.

Let's not forget your last Fist:

Fist (2 attacks) : 2 * (1/2 * 5/6 * 2/3) = .56

For a total of 2.25... Not even enough to put his squad under half strength, so no VPs for you.

There's a reason that people take Assault Cannons. It's because they're an obviously superior weapon.



I really urge you to proxy that before you invest the money in total disappointment. Good luck killing 15 Land Speeders? I don't think I own an army that couldn't do it in one turn, pretty reliably. Land Speeders survive by killing whatever might shoot them. If the enemy can see them on his turn, they die.



No, they don't. You're fooling yourself here. You're saying they're flexible, because they have a couple options that partially mitigate their built in inflexibility. With vanilla Marines, I just take whatever squad I want. With DAs, you HAVE to take them 10 at a time... But you can split them up! Neat! No, not neat. With vanilla Marines I can split them up, plus have double the heavy/special weapons.

I have to disagree with you Donkey.  While armies like Tau, Tyranids and Eldar  definitely got a boost in general from their codexii, I still think that the Marine and CSM codexii have plenty of nasty configurations that make them front runners.  The most obvious is the cheap Las/Plas squad.  No other armies have a unit that is so able to plop itself down in a good position, deal with heavy armor, heavy and light infantry, and survive a lot of fire for one low price.  Marine tanks are still cheap with decent armor and good  BS.  Terminators, Drop pods (and for CSM's Daemons) are incredible force equalizers that obviously can be taken to great effect, and can neutralize any shooty advantages xeno races have against them.  For regular marines, land speeders are the best firepower and objective grabbing light skimmer in the game.  Chaos have some of the best monstrous creatures in the game, and both lists share the best basic trooper in terms of flexibility (necrons probably win on survivability).

In all respect, I think Marines should be the best troops in the game, but in the interest of making the other armies out there playable, the marines should have disadvantages on a tactical army level.

1.  Marines should have to pay the points for shooty prowess.  It sickens me that IG squads pay almost as much for a Las/Plas squad and can't do the job nearly as well.  I think Marines should be able to win firefights on a squad to squad basis, but somehow it seems wrong for a Marine gunline to own an Imperial Guard gunline in a shootout.  The IG gunline has disadvantages that the marines don't have (HQ vulnerability, poor assault capability), but they can't field heavy weapons in significantly larger quantities.  The combat squad rule does a good job of adressing this because it makes tactical marines more than just the mini-devastators that they are now.  DA tacticals can still do that job, but not for the obscenely cheap cost.

2.  From a fluff perspective, the Marines seem to excell at catching the enemy off balance.  The current codex does a good job of this, by giving them the options to pod in, use traits to have a customized fighting style, or maximize a certain troop type.  I like that, but a points cut for ground transports might make rhinos a good choice again.  Hopefully the changes to the DA codex will make them more of a move and shoot army, that is truly tactical.  If it works to some extent, then the relevant changes should be applied to normal marines.

I'm 99% sure it's there on the Devastators getting the combat squads rule, I'll double check tomorrow. I'm sure someone else can confirm it 100%.

The big boost is that it gives the Dark Angels a substitute for Las/Plas squads. You pay more for them, and they come in a smaller number of units, but you get more Lascannons than your average SAFH Marine list.

The problem for the DA's is that their troops choices aren't very efficient anymore and their best units for advancing and doing damage are no where near as good as they are for Vanilla Marines. The Libby is gone as something to be really feared. The Terminators aren't anywhere near as good, the speeders stay the same for the most part if you used 3x1 instead of going crazy with 9 Tornado's.

And FYI, Rhinos are 35 Points with Smoke and Search Lights, Extra Armor is 15 now though.

As far as Marines and Chaos not being the strongest armies: The Top used to be between Craftworld Eldar and Chaos (Iron Warriors). Eldar's BS got toned down in some ways but they're still very near the top of the power curve (skimmer armies in general are). I think Chaos and Marines are still very near the top, it's just that the devil is in the details of how you build your specific list and almost every build has a weakness to another build so a lot will come down to matchups, terrain setups, and the almighty dice.

As it stands right now I'd say that Vanilla Marines, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, and Nids are about on par with each other, with the nod possibly going to Chaos overall. I don't think you can sit there and say that Marines & Chaos aren't near the top though - that's just silly.

On a positive note, one thing I'm very impressed by is the Razorback rule.

You can use it as a taxi to carry each half of the squad as I understand it.

This would seem to offer some useful options for position units and being able to adapt to changing fire lanes over the course of the game.


EDIT: In 3rd edition Dark Angels were too weak before the revamp. Most players used Codex rules. I'm sure Dark Angels will have a White Dwarf bringing them up in power to be competitive with Eldar and Marines by 2009 or so. I'll likely what for the v4.5 edition of the codex before switching from the generic rules.

I am going to objectively playtest the army and then report back my findings. I will test out a standard battle force and a Deathwing army. Both lists will be optimized for winning as much as possible. My feedback will be brutally honest.

- Greenie