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Godzilla Nids are really the only army that can hold it's own against the 3 Falcon list. I played mine this weekend and destroyed all but one Falcon. He killed most of my little bugs and one single Hive tyrant with his snakes on a plane then I ate them up. Other than the Zilla list try a sledge hammer.

Aside from lucky shots, how does a Zilla list consistently take out a 3 falcon army?

Devilfex 1 glance per turn
Gunfex 1 glance per turn
Devil tyrant 0 glances per turn
etc.

Those glances consistently prevent the Falcons from firing, however, which means that the Eldar are denied a goodly chunk of their anti-MC weaponry. And you only have to get lucky a time or two.

They wipe out the rest of the army while the falcons fail miserably at killing carnifexes.

Tyrant with VC/Dev -> glance
2 gunfexes -> 2 glances

Then you shoot your dakkafexes and assault with your winged Tyrant and the rest of yoru dudes.

Normal Eldar is a pretty fair fight against the dakkanids.

when the game gets tough:
Your opponent is running 30 pathfinders with his 3 falcons and fire dragons (god I hate that list)
Your opponent puts fire dragons in the falcons and uses long range guns with the rest of his list.

Not really an avid 'Nid player, so slightly different question from me:

How do you deal with falcon heavy armies as Tau?  We generally play very terrain heavy cityfight, so it's hard to get much direct fire at the Falcons until they're right up close.  They usually carry something that'll prove a fairly bit threat up close (Scorpians, Dire Avengers, Flamer-heavy Storm Guardians, etc.) and love to tank shock anything out in the open (i.e. Crisis and stealth suits trying to hide behind buildings).  Little less than a 50% chance for a tank shock to send the team running.  So, given the 3d6 jetpack fallback and the fact that my Tau are usually fairly close to the board edge against a charging opponent, I tend to lose nearly as many models to falling off the edge as I do to shooting.

By my estimate, a full Crisis team has maybe a 4-5% chance to destroy a falcon at point blank range (assuming it can't get rear armor), so the assault troops inside usually pop out and wreak havoc.  Or, in the case of dire avengers, Bladestorm a flank and hop back in the Falcon next turn.

The really painful part is the tank shocking.  I've had a single falcon destroy a devilfish, and tank shock two full squads off the board in a single turn before.  So unfortunately, the "shake 'em and ignore 'em" tactic doesn't work so well when they can still destroy (or at least disrupt) a flank with Tank Shock and when the cargo they carry (usually assault troops) can seriously hinder a flank as well.

Considering Eldar mostly have to focus on beating Tyranids after the nerfed Chaos comes out those Pathfinder units are going to be pretty good.

Ion heads & missile pods--all multishot str7 weapons with good range and decent BS. Whenever I play against a Tau army I expect to see at least 4-5 of these weapons, sometimes more.

The least useful Tau weapons against falcons are the ones that were popular before the new Eldar codex: fusion, plasma and railguns. Single-shot weapons will get a glance (if they hit) but will not typically permanently hurt a falcon.

Actually I think that the falcon rules are turning out to be healthy for the game. They force all-comer tournament lists to diversify more:

-Tau players can't just max fusion, str6 plasma and railguns anymore
-Necron players now pretty much need heavy destroyers
-Space marines can't depend on non-tankhunting assault cannons to do everything for them

The traditional zilla nids are just going to have to find some way to follow suit if they want to actually kill falcons.

I think the Zilla lists are doing the same. The old 'take all comers' lists are really 'take all marines' lists. And were not suited for dealing with zilla. As the lists evolve, zilla will become more managable. Same with Falcons.

I think Zilla lists (and Nid lists in general) can do okay against a falcon eldar list; I just don't understand the assertions made about it being easiest for the Nids.

There really isn't much way to kill the falcons for a Nid player; but you can destroy the rest of the army, and go from there.

Back to the origional question, I'd add that any damage you can do on the first turn (i.e. before they move) is key. I don't think that's been mentioned yet. For instance, an indirect bassie that manages to hit has a very good chance (comparitively speaking) of destroying a falcon. I'm not really up to speed (pun intended) on Speed Freaks, but if you can pull a first turn charge then do so. You probably won't though, since he'll know that and deploy accordingly. I did see a 13th company list massacre two falcons on the first turn with some of their scouting bikers.

Well that's the problem with Eldar & Falcons. The conventional wisdom is "Shake it, Move On to the Next" which works well for Grav Tanks that rely on shooting to do damage.

But if you come up against someone who's relying on Grav Tanks to shoot, get ready for an easy game. Falcons are great because they're an indestructible transport, putting the nastiest assault unit in the game (Harlequins) in your lines with next to nothing you can do about it.

Sadly, I don't have much of a way to stop that. If I know my opponent is running it, I'll try and keep something fast like speeders behind terrain and then zoom out to block the access hatch, forcing the Eldar player to redeploy the Falcon to get the payload out. After that, I've got nothing.

And this is why my new motto when I play against the Taxi list is F*@# Eldar.

But the wave serpents are almost as tough. And I don't worry about the assaulting that much, because they must wait a turn. But they can drop off shooters in the same round. That concerns me.

They don't have to wait a turn if they disembark before the Falcon moves. The only reason I'd take a unit of Fire Dragons over a third unit of Harlequins is if I was running out of points and had nothing else to sacrifice.

Therion's got it right. The whole problem isn't so much the shooters. Firedragons are only good for blowing up a (conventional) tank, against Marines they'll kill a few, especially in Cover, they're not even that great against Termies, because you'll probably have a few termies left over, who will probably have assault cannons, and will proceed to gun down the Firedragons or assault them and laugh.

It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

See, this is the difference between armies.

Playing Nids, I am not nearly as concerned about them dropping off an assault squad. Assuming the falcon/serpent moves into position on turn 2, I have a turn to prepare for them. Either put gaunts in closer, block the rear ramp, move away, or whatever.

I am much more concerned about the shooty units that zoom up in their transport, dump out the unit, and rapid fire my poor, helpless, misunderstood stealers before they can assault.

Somethng most dont know about Falcons is that they are very bad at shooting once you consider the points.

In other words. You wont remove that Falcon from an objective easily, but so struggles your opponent to kill your stuff. In the end at worst you both contest the objective which is a pretty ballanced draw.

Your opponent cant field Falcons exclusivly so your best bet is to shoot his more fragile units. Also if he fields 3 you have good chance to spot some, should you get first turn.

In this problematic case the Eldar player should of course deploy all his grav tanks in one corner, hugging the table edge and most likely limiting a lot of the enemy firepower by being out of range.



It's pretty hard to move away from troops that can disembark 2", move 6", fleet D6" and assault 6" but in some cases it's of course possible. Fact just is that if your Nids are running away from the wall of Falcons you're losing the game bigtime and sooner or later the Harlequins pop out, kill a couple big guys and massacre move into even more Nids.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/10/2007 7:07 AM


It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

Or if the transport capability is more of a problem than the killing it, then hope there is a healthy dose of escalation, the transporter starts of board and the transportee hugs cover hoping the taxi arrives before something that can kill him.

Posted By puree on 04/10/2007 4:16 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/10/2007 7:07 AM


It's delivering the assault troops that are the real worry about falcons. The only problem is that 3x Falcons and 3x6 Harlies works out to a bit of points and you can fit it into your FOC, but you're going to struggle to find decent anti-tank at the same time. Still if 2/3's of your armies points are near indestructible until they want to get out of the flying fortress and assault, then you're probably sitting pretty.

The best way to kill a Falcon is hope that the tournament organizers didn't include enough terrain to hide 3 big Skimmers in a deployment zone and then pray for first turn to blow one up.

Or if the transport capability is more of a problem than the killing it, then hope there is a healthy dose of escalation, the transporter starts of board and the transportee hugs cover hoping the taxi arrives before something that can kill him.

You should read the rules for what a Shadowseer does for a unit of Harlequins.

Unless you're a drop pod army and those Falcons don't turn up, you're really not going to get the chance to shoot the Rending Clowns from Outer Space unless your opponent is a moron.

Ha ha ha I play Necrons and I find it fairly easy to kill a falcon as a unit of warriors rapid firing is easly enough to glance it to death. I find that the new rules really don't affect me much as I had to glance them before anyway. And as for a prism don't you just destroy its cannon then leave it till you have somthing to spare to shoot at it.

For me the falcon/falcons are usually the last things left on the table and the I tend to find they really don't stand up to massed gauss fire very well at all.

Remember, moving away was just one option mentioned. I can also interpose a tarpit unit, or can move to/assault the rear of the transport. The transport will have to move before they disembark, thus no assault.

In all, I am more worried about shooty units coming out of transports.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 04/09/2007 10:14 AM
Yeah, by RAW the skimmer can be penetrated from the moment it's immobilized. I play it this way.

But all shooting from the same volley is resolved together, so only shooting from subsequent volleys can pen the immobilized skimmer.

The wording in the codex causes an issue. The rule is worded as if they intended the "immobilization" event to "resolve" at the end of the shooting phase. The example that comes afterwards only causes confusion. The most concrete line of argument is the BGB "mobile skimmer" argument, which is why most decide to settle with that.

In my opinion this makes vectored engines overpriced, but still better than going without them.

Unless they clarify the vectored engines upgrade in a FAQ, the most likely interpretation is the immobilized=immediate pen. threat.

Your Eldar opponents aren't playing as smart as they might. Glancing gauss weapons are an issue (a unit of 10 warriors rapid firing scores nearly two glances) but falcons have the mobility to avoid that for the most part. Also smart Eldar players will cover the back hatches with bikes or vypers--which also prevents destroyers in front of a falcon from jetting 12" over for a highly-effective rear shot.

As a last resort, I often use tank shocks from other grav tanks to clear blocked hatches so the passengers can disembark before the transporting grav tank moves. It's another reason why star engines are great--clear hatches with tank shocks in the movement phase, then move away to a safe position in the shooting phase.

Here's the Vectored Engines Entry:

Vectored Engines: The vehicle can turn its
engines to almost any angle, allowing the
crew to circumvent disaster when damaged.
If the vehicle would crash due to being
immobilised, it instead makes a forced
landing as if it had not moved that turn.

I don't see the intent for after the shooting phase resolution. It seems like a fairly straight-forward If-then string. If vehicle is immobilized then it lands and doesn't count as having moved (ergo can be penetrated by the next unit that fires upon the grounded falcon). Am I missing something? If they had intended for all shots to be resolved against a mobile skimmer, the Vectored Engines should have stated that it comes to a landing at the end of the shooting phase.

Doesn't matter if it counts as having moved or not.

The key passage is in the "skimmers moving fast" rule in the main rulebook. That passage says that the skimmers moving fast rule applies to "mobile skimmers" that moved more than 6" in the previous turn (emphasis added).

An immobilized skimmer is obviously not a "mobile" skimmer, regardless of how fast it moved in the previous turn. So the skimmer moving fast rule doesn't apply to a skimmer anymore once it is no longer mobile.

Yeah... we've already established that. I'm searching for the weird wording ColonelEllios was talking about in the Vectored Engines entry.

Anyway, aside from missile pods and ion cannons, are there other good tactics to use against eldar to help my Tau friend succeed against our local eldar player? Jpgil_galad plays a quasi Fish of Fury list, if that helps.

As Tau?

If he's got 3 Falcons, that means he's got 3 squads riding along for delivery. It's either going to be Fire Dragons or some kind of Squad that wants to assault you.

Mech Tau can nicely run away from the assaulty squads, and should have a very easy time keeping the Falcons shaken, to keep the Tau on Fire superiority for the game.

After that, shoot the hell out of whatever else he has outside the falcons and go for VP denial (since he's doing the same to you, but you should be able to out shoot him.

Just don't let yourself get boxed in by the falcons, so you have to deploy wisely - ie deploy in such a way that he can't throw down three Falcons in a perimeter to box in the majority of your suits with no where for them to run away.

You also have a lot of skimmers, possibly more than the Eldar player will due to the fact that Wave Serpents aren't all that great. Because of this you can try to use your own skimmers to block the rear access hatches of his Falcons to prevent assault troops from coming out and assaulting that turn.

If he's got Fire Dragons on there, they'll disembark and shoot either a tank or some Suits. At that point, try and weather the shots, hope he doesn't score more VP's in his volley than the squad cost, and then nuke the dragons the following turn. If all he can get them on is skimmers, then you may be alright. Remember though he has to move 12 to disembark his shooters that turn, so you may be able to out manuver him.

The only upside to Mech Eldar is that if he's got 3 Falcons and 3 Squads riding (most likely Harlies) then he's going to have a hard time taking out enemy skimmers, since anti-tank is sparse. Use this to your advantage.

FOF is actaully the best way to down a falcon.

If he has assult troops he has to move the falcon very close to your units to try and catch them (12 in move is only a little slower than 12+fleet).
If you leave your fish on the outside of your flanks you can usually get a drop on the rear of a falcon and 24 shots + shots from fish can down it with prety good consistency.

Other than that, just scatter your army. The rear has to point somewhere and if he is always hugging the walls he is severly limiting the uses of the guys inside.

Best Suggestion: SHAKE and BAKE. Shake the Falcon and bake the rest of the army with your shooting.

It used to be STUN and DONE as to wait for the Falcon to be STUNNED and then it would be DONE next turn by penetrating hits.

SHAKE and BAKE.

It must be true, because it rhymes.