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I prefere THINK and DRINK:  think about how to kill a Falcon, then drink your way to happiness!

Lost and the Damned cannot take havocs (this was asked on page 3, and I can't be arsed to go back and see who it was).  The best solution I've found is to take a pair of Obliterators and mayhaps one or two six-man Chaos Marine squads with tank hunter, autocannon and plasma.  I still haven't actually PLAYED my list yet, but I have a feeling it will still be owned by mech armies.

Ladies and Gentlemen see the Eldar Flacon in this year's most thrilling movie: Death Proof

Just don't hassle that Raider with the Wyches in it, is all I'm sayin'.

There really is only one way to kill a falcon and it's not a very elegant or original solution. Simply: Shoot the snot out of it and hope the dice gods are kind. That's it.

Cause as many glances as possible and hope for that magical double 5+. In the meantime you have to stay nice and clear from it - out of fruity space clown range/ block the hatches or tank shock it away with preds/ Hammerheads etc.

The question, really, is what the most efficient way to inflict those glancing hits is. The principle of neutralising falcons is clear -- it's the practice which is depressingly complicated.

I think the army with by far the worst time of it is Orks, be they footslogging, speed kulting, or raving lunatics with spears. As we've said, the easiest is probably Chaos or Necrons.

The trouble with the spread of mechlists is that the stanard metagame set up used to be packing in lots of melta, plasma, and las power to deal with monoliths, Russes, assault cannon termies, and deep striking marines.

Now armies ALSO have to figure out how to incorporate high-volume, middle-strength firepower without nerfing themselves against the heavier stuff -- not a fun proposition by any means.

Does this seem like an accurate read to you all?

-Adso

I play Necrons also, and Falcons are easy meat for the boys in chrome. There's nothing like veiling or porting a squad of warriors into rapid fire range and putting the gauss guns to work. Between that, immortals,and the destroyers I field wholesale, Falcons don't last very long into the game.

Posted By BrotherAdso on 04/14/2007 6:09 AM
The question, really, is what the most efficient way to inflict those glancing hits is. The principle of neutralising falcons is clear -- it's the practice which is depressingly complicated.

I think the army with by far the worst time of it is Orks, be they footslogging, speed kulting, or raving lunatics with spears. As we've said, the easiest is probably Chaos or Necrons.

The trouble with the spread of mechlists is that the stanard metagame set up used to be packing in lots of melta, plasma, and las power to deal with monoliths, Russes, assault cannon termies, and deep striking marines.

Now armies ALSO have to figure out how to incorporate high-volume, middle-strength firepower without nerfing themselves against the heavier stuff -- not a fun proposition by any means.

Does this seem like an accurate read to you all?

-Adso

I think you're missing the point actually.  The problem isn't so much the Falcon itself anymore.  The Starcannon is Heavy 2, and expensive.  The Falcon is BS3 maximum, it used to be a *female dog* because it shot massive AP2 death at BS4, possibly Guided.  And it transported stuff, but it was primarily a gun boat since you could mostly count on it to fire and exposing it was dangerous since you could manage to "Shake" it which meant it was dead if you got enough glancing hits.

Now, it's shooting is pretty bad if it gets used, and it's super easy to keep it from shooting.  The problem with Falcons is that they deliver squads where the Eldar player wants them, when he wants them, with very little you can do about it.  Between Harlies & Fire Dragons this is the main problem.   And honestly it's near impossible to stop unless you can run away from them, and in the case of Fire Dragons, even that doesn't work so well.

Now, you could shoot your entire army at the tank in one turn and you'll be lucky to get a gun off the thing, let alone pull it down.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, each glance is an 11% chance of downing the sucker.  So that takes 9-10 Glances to do it, if Statistics works - per tank.

As far as changing the Meta game, it's not going to do a thing.  You don't need lots of medium strength shots to down the Falcon.  You want lots of sure-fire glances.  Which means more Lascannons.  An assault cannon (without Tank Hunters) is equal to a Lascannon in terms of stunning a Falcon.  Autocannons are worse (though they become ungodly good in the hands of Havocs with Tank Hunters).  Your answer to putting those grav tanks down isn't more medium strength guns, it's just more of the same - Las/Plas + Assault Cannons. 

The way to beat the new Eldar is to see how many squads they're throwing in the Falcons, and which ones will hurt you the most.  If you're running lots of tanks, Firedragons are about to make your game go very bad.   If you're just about anything, look out for the Harlies, because they'll hurt.  See this and deploy accordingly, making it hard to lepfrog from CC massacres and setup counter moves/shots, hoping he wipes out whatever he charges. 

Give yourself an idea how hard it is to pull down those tanks - take 2D6 and start rolling, count how long it takes to get a 5 as the lowest number on 2D6.  It will be a high number on average. 

This is the point, and the brokeness of the Eldar dex, he has the ability to put squads where he wants, how he wants, pretty much when he wants too.  The way you win is to see what he's got and you learn to deploy and move in concert to what he does and use the simple fact that he can't disembark if he moves more than 12" with the tank.    You really just have to outplay your opponent, even more so than usual.  I've beaten the list a few times, but the players weren't all that experienced.  I've had times where I lost to the list, despite being a better player than my opponent; some missions (Secure & Control) are just nighmares to play against Mech Eldar.

Assuming a holo-field and spirit stones

One glance hit will....

75.0% Crew Shaken
13.9% weap dest
8.3% Immobilzed
2.8% destroyed

Talk about the ultimate points denial....

with all the upgrades, vectored engines, spirite stones, holofield, its more like a 3 percent chance to bring it down. lets say you are a space marine with a lascannon, than the odds of you bringing it down 1.2 percent.

Voodoo is right. Unfortantely 3 Falcons can take little or no Tactical thought to even in a Cleanse mission force a tie with little to worry about. I usually dont like relying on luck to win games and rather through my own playing.

Wheres tactics when you need them when your a 13th company army facing a 3 Falcon eldar list?

If you play 13th Company you already know you've got a gimmick list with minimum antitank.

3 Falcons is a bit excessive. But it's still three scoring units. Any army with a good number of scoring units can still win or draw. Everything else in the Eldar army only takes a moderate amount of killing.

Maybe easy pickings if the Eldar player is slowed.

If you veil into RF range of that Falcon, you are averaging what 3 glances? That's okay, but still probably not going to kill it. Maybe if you can pour all you destroyers and immortals in too.... And that takes out maybe 1 falcon. Then guess what happens- out pop the FDs who melt you and clowns who eat your squads. Not a great trade.
Otherwise, the grav tanks can stay at the fringes and pick things off while ramrodding assault units where they need to be. Massed gauss fire is certainly a threat, but no insta win by any stretch of the imagination. If they can draw a veiled unit away from the rest of the army, that unit will die. If it takes the res orb down, the necrons are probably quickly on the way to phase out from angry space mimes.

more like 4.444~ glances with 40 gauss flayer shots.

Also, its important to note that the veil of darkness does not require the Lord to be joined with a necron unit before, during, or after the teleportation, meaning you can have him stuck in the middle of a blob of 20 warriors and be completely unaffected by whatever happens to that squad.   Its not like being in a squad gives him much of an advantage in hth anyhow.

How do you kill them with Orks?
Spray and pray, or ignore them until the harlies/fire dragons get out and then try to envelop them with boyz?
I mean, if a space marine with a lascannon has a 1.2% chance, what chance do even 4 rokkit launchas in a tankbusta squad have (especially since the bastids can sit out of your puny range.)

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/15/2007 12:28  You don't need lots of medium strength shots to down the Falcon.  You want lots of sure-fire glances.  Which means more Lascannons.  An assault cannon (without Tank Hunters) is equal to a Lascannon in terms of stunning a Falcon.  Autocannons are worse (though they become ungodly good in the hands of Havocs with Tank Hunters).  Your answer to putting those grav tanks down isn't more medium strength guns, it's just more of the same - Las/Plas + Assault Cannons. 

If you are after sure fire glances then the autocannon isn't worse than lascannon and AC.  The chances of glancing in a turn for those weapons is (at BS4):

lascannon = 44.4%

autocannon = 39.5%

AC = 37.6%

The basic AC is actually the worst at 'sure fire glances'.  Over the long term all 3 weapons average the same the number of glances, but the AC trades reliabilty of something for a small chance of mulltiple glances per turn.

If you add tankhunters onto those weapons then the list reverses, and they no longer have the same mean average:

lascannon = 55.5 % (av .555)

autocannon = 55.5% (av .666)

AC = 63.5 (av .888)

With or without tankhunters the autocannon is not that bad compared to the other 2 weapon you mention.

As an aside, if range isn't an issue - and if the falcons are rushing you with harlies on board it possibly isn't, then melta weapons are quite good with a basic 61% of a glance at under half range, better than a rapid firing plasma. If you are tailoring for falcons maybe consider a las/melta squad, with tankhunting termie donkey cannons.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/10/2007 2:40 PM
How do you kill them with Orks?

You don't.

If it's a fully mechanized Eldar army, you're pretty much screwed. Against more balanced lists, you're better off mostly ignoring the Falcon and killing the rest of the list.

Hmmm. Okay, that's what I thought. Sorta like the mechanised tau problem, but worse because certain elements can out assault you.
I generally ignore falcons until the cargo pops out, then deal with the cargo. (And this was before the new codex, haven't played eldar since.)
Seems a bit stupid to make an option an entire army has no chance against but that's the way it goes.

It's not just orks, It is just damn hard to take out a falcon. Even armies that are 'good' at it, suck at it.

Sorry I haven't read the whole post but in this weekend just gone, I lost my first game as Eldar in 4 editions (mainly due to bone headed play against a solid opponent).

What I didn't bank on was that he had his squad of Havocs with 4 heavy bolters all armed with Tank Hunter as well. A great tactic that I totally didn't expect, as I simply thought 'ah, heavy bolters there for soft infantry kills'.

No unit is unbeatable.

Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

He indeed immobilised me in one turn.

Interestingly, this was a game where I dwelt too much on the statistical probability of certain dice rolls and often came up short when the results deviated from the norm. I've learned my lesson. Math-hammer is not how I should play - I should have used my usual tactics of evasive maneuvers and delivering overwhelming force to a limited part of my enemy's lines.

Then again, failing three consecutive unmodified morale tests by a Harlequin unit has left me somewhat bitter...

lol.. i know the feeling... its as if the dice-gods are aware of your fiendish predictions, and decided to throw them in your face!!!

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I've had a lot of luck with my Alpha Legion's tank hunting autocannon Havoc squads.  I reliably get 2-3 glances from each squad per turn.  My tactic is to simply keep them shaken so they can't shoot, then proceed to fire at other elements of the army with the rest of my army.  I keep the Havocs back and screened by the rest of my army to limit their vulnerability to assault.

What has usually happened is that whatever is in the Falcon gets out and gets one good turn of action before they are eliminated the next turn.  The fact that the Falcon has such a limited carrying capacity means that even the nastiest units they can carry are terribly vulnerable to a single turn beat down.  The exception is Harlequins who get stuck in combat.  They have to be worn down by  a good old fashion dog pile.  Nasty they may be, but still...there's only six of them and they're T3 with 5+ save.

Sal

Posted By coredump on 05/31/2007 1:05 PM
Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

Or you could look at it as 14% chance per turn of getting an immobilise/kill, whilst it is subjective I wouldn't call that 'very' lucky, lucky maybe, but getting a 1 in 7 is going to happen often enough to warrant acceptance of it and a backup plan. Those 4 Hbs are identical to 3 assault cannons vs falcons - and with a longer range to boot.

For C:SM facing falcons the 4 tank hunting heavy bolters in a dev squad is almost as good as 4 normal lascannons (18% of same result per turn) in a dev squad, but a substantial 65pts cheaper (for a 5 man squad). Definatly worth considering if you are up against falcons, they even have the bonus of being nice against most eldar foot troops should the eldar try a switch.

Posted By puree on 06/01/2007 1:58 PM

Posted By coredump on 05/31/2007 1:05 PM
Lets see....

4 heavy bolters

12 shots, 8 hit, 1.333 glances
Roughly, there is a 40% chance he shoots at you *all game*, and never gets an immobilize or destroy.

If he took you out in a turn or two, he was very lucky.

Or you could look at it as 14% chance per turn of getting an immobilise/kill, whilst it is subjective I wouldn't call that 'very' lucky, lucky maybe, but getting a 1 in 7 is going to happen often enough to warrant acceptance of it and a backup plan. Those 4 Hbs are identical to 3 assault cannons vs falcons - and with a longer range to boot.

For C:SM facing falcons the 4 tank hunting heavy bolters in a dev squad is almost as good as 4 normal lascannons (18% of same result per turn) in a dev squad, but a substantial 65pts cheaper (for a 5 man squad). Definatly worth considering if you are up against falcons, they even have the bonus of being nice against most eldar foot troops should the eldar try a switch.

SHHHHH!

Puree!

Youre gonna convince people that heavy bolters are the new cheese!

Posted By Hellfury on 06/02/2007 9:00 AM


Youre gonna convince people that heavy bolters are the new cheese!

Uh- yeah.

Just to be on the safe side, tankhunting heavy bolters can't penetrate a falcon even if it sits still - so obviously they aren't that good.

Just adding my 2 cents to the numerous stories abour unkillable falcons:

I was playing this afternoon with my LatD against Eldar, and even though I butchered the poor aliens, I had to wait 6th turn and I had fired about 5 Autocannon shots, 6 Lascannon, 2 Melta, 6 twin-linked plasma, 2 earthshaker shells, 4 reaper autocannon, 3 Defiler cc attacks at it and it is only with 24 Daemonettes rending attacks ( who auto-hit as the Falcon had landed after immobilisation on the 5th turn) that I eventually destroyed the bugger  :|

I shot at falcons so much that they only shot the turn they came on the board and never again. I killed one too. And I put devilfish in the way of my units so they couldn't tank shock them.

Broadsides are the kings of anti-falcon.

I thought of something. I'm starting tau, and I just realized that a skyray paired with some pathfinders (which I'm going to take anyway for the markerlight synergy) could fire all 6 of its seeker missiles at the thing, potentially on turn one. Hitting the front or side, that's a good 5-6 hits and 3-4 glances/pens.

Posted By dumbuket on 06/12/2007 10:47 AM
I thought of something. I'm starting tau, and I just realized that a skyray paired with some pathfinders (which I'm going to take anyway for the markerlight synergy) could fire all 6 of its seeker missiles at the thing, potentially on turn one. Hitting the front or side, that's a good 5-6 hits and 3-4 glances/pens.

Now you just need to hope he has the falcon out in the open where you can target it....