Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A complaining gamer is a happy gamer. So here at Dakka, the board is loaded with lots of happy gamers!

Personally I love it when prices go up because I'm allergic to money.

I think there is a cure for that, Doob.

Where have you gone, Jojo_monkey_boy!

He has passed like rain on the mountain, Rabboni. Like wind in the meadow.

I like to think he's the meat of a rave chick sandwitch, but no-one knows where the monkey boy roams.

I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Which, I think, strikes an important point: we all know the GW hobby is expensive, but the guys who play regularly tend to be the same guys enjoying the game. When you stop playing, when you stop having fun, the time a codex gets re-released or the next time prices go up you can't justify getting back in - because you forgot why you got started in the first place - for fun!

I know GW isn't perfect, but I do play weekly, and I have blast everytime I play. I play regularly in the Canadian Hall of Heroes system, and I play strangers all the time. Despite all their imperfections, the GW games are far from unplayable (especially WHFB,) and don't develop tortuous rules arguments evertime you set up models. But you'd think otherwise if all you did was read the threads on Dakkadakka.

Zoned: People complain about what doesn't work. 95% of GW's rules work fine. You only hear about the small proportion that don't because they're the ones most likely to cause difficulties that people come here to try and find a solution for, or that annoy people.

The games are fun and certainly playable - but, of course, they could also be better.

In terms of internet discussion there's basically two options - (1) sycophantic back patting and deliberately ignoring problems or (2) criticizing problems, which can lead to an impression of negativity.

People don't post "I had a couple fun games this weekend. No rules issues and the armies were well balanced against each other. I lost, but that was mostly due to mis-deploying my fast cavalry." The things that are discussion-worthy are more likely to be things that people are having difficulty with or that people don't like.

For example, Leman Russ Battletanks are usually regarded as being pretty solid, effective, well-balanced and well-priced for what they do. You don't see a lot of threads entitled "Leman Russ should stay the same!". In contrast, Dark Angels now relies on some pretty cheesy tactics (like first turn assaults) to make up for weaknesses elsewhere in the list. You do see a lot of threads reacting to that.

I think it's an important point to note that people who enjoy the game will still sound off about things that bother them, and they may not feel compelled to proclaim their love for it every post. The fact that they're still here talking about it is good enough evidence of that.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/19/2007 9:25 PM
People don't post "I had a couple fun games this weekend. No rules issues and the armies were well balanced against each other. I lost, but that was mostly due to mis-deploying my fast cavalry."

They do on some other forums.  Because a thread is just not worth reading unless it's 500 pages long!

While I always hate seeing any price raises in GW prices, this one will have a minimal effect on me. I don't plan on (re)purchasing codecies (I have no issues with marking discovered rules changes in my books) or picking up a Battle of McCragge boxed set.

However, I do realize this may have an impact on new, incoming players that are interested in the game but not an additional $7 in startup costs (BoM box and a Codex). I'm also aware the quality of GW's books are inferior to that of Privateer Press. Regardless, I don't see this as earth-shattering or hobby-ending news or worthy of heaping scorn upon Toreador, Mikhaila or myself. It's a minor raise in price on products veteran players aren't likely to purchase in the next year. Save the wrath for 2008.

Posted By Zoned on 04/19/2007 9:11 PM
I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Youre mistaken then, I play almost weekly now, with some short recesses when RL gets hairy. I am enjoying finishing my eldar now that I have new rules, and getting my butt kicked with my necrons. Lysander is just boring...

In fact, I play lots of differing games, so it becomes pretty apparent where each type of game has an area that is lacking, and where it is a standard for games to emulate.

Just because I dont buy much GW doesnt mean I dont enjoy playing GW games. Thats why I have been on this board for so long. The "Biggest source of complaints" is probably one of their biggest supporters.

So whats this important point again? And why am I involved in it?

I am not sure what youre going on about, but you could probably stop putting words in peoples mouths and speak for yourself.

Posted By Zoned on 04/19/2007 9:11 PM
I just got to point out - the people who complain the most seem to be the same people who don't actually play GW games anymore. I'm thinking of Hellfury and Nyarlathotep667 in particular - I know Hellfury in particular has admitted to not playing 40k in years (though he clearly loves to talk about it,) and I can't remember the last time Nyarlathotep667 ever mentioned anything approaching actually playing the game.

Excuse me? How the hell do you know how much GW games I play? Do you know me in person? Do you even play in my local group or live remotely near me? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made such preposterous suggestion. Perhaps if you weren't so busy sucking on the GW "teat" you might have noticed that Hellfury in particular has frequently posted about playing 40k in the past year or more. That alone shows how clueless your personal attacks on us are. By the way, I most certainly have played GW games in the past year. Why the hell else would I continue to post here if I didn't?

In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal. Discussion, by the way, is "an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic." That topic specifically being miniature wargames of all stripes, not just GW products. Perhaps you should look into trying to do more of that instead of putting forth yet more lame attacks on people because their opinion of GW's product differs from yours.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/20/2007 12:48 AM
In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal.

I hope you see the irony in posting that.

 

 

Posted By Wayfarer on 04/20/2007 2:03 AM

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 04/20/2007 12:48 AM
In case you haven't noticed, Dakka Dakka is a *discussion* site. Discussion, not "lets attack other posters and generally be asses on the internet" because you are incapable of putting forth your own opinion, good or bad, without making it personal.

I hope you see the irony in posting that.

And what is that? I had not even posted previously in this thread, yet it is somehow acceptable to call me out and make a baseless personal attack? Huh?

 

You know, it's discussions like this that make me glad that the only GW minis I'm interested in are either by Armorcast or from Rogue Trader... and have been OOP for so long that price rises (and the fracas that goes with them) are irrelevant !

 

 

Posted By Toreador on 04/19/2007 2:42 PM
Just as easy as it would be for you not to post anything back.

Where's the fun in that?

And if you've heard nothing but bad things from me, then you haven't really been paying attention.

What people like you get so hung up on is my tone. I'm a very blunt person when it comes to things like this. People often mistake this as arrogance or hostility.

BYE

Posted By Toreador on 04/19/2007 2:42 PM

Prices rise, figures get better. Part of life. Put an 80's ork or marine next to a modern model and wonder why....

 

Toreador:  You wouldn't get many complaints if the above was true.  The truth is that the "modern models" are a mixed bag:  Everything about "better models" is purely subjective...  Some like the new Empire plastics due to their sleeker appearance and ease of ranking up.  Some don't, because the new Empire plastics lack the interchangable aspect of the older plastics... etc. etc.

The real area where the newer=better="ok to raise prices" arguement falls down is the constant repackaging of old models, and arbitrary increase in price bands - Even the example of 80s marines is misplaced, since the "current range" has the following 2nd edition models (to name a few off the top of my head):

Marine bikes, Marine Assault Sgts, Vidicator, most of the Eldar Warlocks, Eldar Wraithguard, Eldar Warpsiders Eldar Jetbikes, Chaos bikes, Ork buggies, Sisters of Battle, Bjorn the Fell Handed, Abaddon, Ahrimman, Ragnar, Mepiston, Eldrad etc....

The new Empire Engineer in the UK is on the "Price Adjustment" list despite being extremely new... due to its placement in the "price band".

The recently discontinued metal Eldar Wraithlord, had a base mould dating from Rogue Trader recently retailed for $45 cdn, up from $7 cdn in the 80s.  That's only an increase of almost 650%...

The Eldar support battery, instead of a blister weapon "of choice", for $25 cdn, we had the weapon repackaged into $40 box containing all options!  Horray for paying $15 for 2 unusable extra guns!

The newest release, Asmodai and Azrael have base moulds dating back to 2nd Edition, with new backpacks.  I guess the new back banners can justify their $25 cdn pricetags... considering that this represents close to a 100% over their starting price for essentially the same model as before...

So... it all boils down to "the price you are willing to pay for the product they sell".  Claims that prices are higher because stuff is "newer" and "better"... that's a load of pucky... since prices are also higher for the stuff that is "old" and "the same", as well as stuff that s "newer" and "crap" like the new (and recently discontinued) Chaos possessed marines.

I am just using that as an overall example of new figs. I was using some of my old 80's orks to fill out some troops I needed in the new. They looked entirely like grots. Then I got out some old beakies. The new models look so much better.

I do agree that older models going up in price is bad, but when they do the whole "price band" thing, it happens. And I have most of the old models, if not two

I just find the hate thrown at the new Empire box sets to be a little over the top. Even being one piece poses the new box has more variety than the old, and more options. It also comes with a nice big standard and a lot of gubbins to vary up the models even more. The old poses look very static, and almost as bad as the one piece guys that came in the WHFB box. It is like the new Wraithlord kit to me. It is worth buying because of the look and options, though as I said. I only fronted my units out, and did that buying the cheaper box with three units in it that they initially released.

HBMC, I really do remember the days when this board was entirely different, and you said a lot of good things. I just haven't seen as many of late.

To Hellfury: Sorry, I could have swore you posted recently that you hadn't played 40k in years. I guess you made no such statement, then?

When I had read that (or thought I had read that,) I was just reminded of my buddies who had dropped out of the GW hobby, guys who loved to complain about every new thing GW did, but always pored over my latest WD or codex the second they came over. I always thought, man, we'd have so much more fun if we actually played the game then simply argued about the company.

BTW, I meant no insult when I wrote: "though he clearly loves to talk about it" I meant you actively discuss most aspects of the GW hobby, usually in a clear, insightful way (I like it when you scan in the actual rules in YMDC)

But if you do play regularly nowadays (I've definitely seen you posting about your WARMACHINE games,) I apologize, I made too broad of an assumption.

To nyarlathotep667: Sorry, I meant no personal attack in my statement - but I stand behind my remark -  I sift through most of Dakka's threads and you seem to frequent the ones that either show new models (from any company,) or discuss anything related to company policy (any company.)

I rarely (if ever,) see you discuss specifics about the game, going to tournaments/conventions,  army lists, leagues...etc. I could be wrong, as this is simply going off memory.

Again, if I assumed too much, and you do play/enjoy the game regularly, I'll admit that my statement was too broad, and I apologize. Good gaming! 

 

nyarlathotep667 must play! He knows the DA codex is bad...

Called out

Gamers love to *female dog*. It's a fact of life.

Nyarl: Baseless? It was only two months or so ago when you were repremanded for insulting people too often and too harshly. You are frequently scathing in your posts and it is ironic that you should constantly deride other people for doing something you do so often. It isn't a personal attack to point this out.

Toreador: It isn't just gamers. Cars are too expensive and fall apart too easily, gas is too expensive, new T.V.s are too expensive, milk is overpriced, and lets not forget computers!. Why back in my day of windows 3.1 we had to use dos on occasion, not like xp and its oversimplified rules. Honestly, ms paint is still a great unit and fluffy too but photoshop is far and away more points efficient.

For all of you that are jumping on Nyarly....none of you are any better.  All of you that are "complaining about complainers", get a life.  You are all mouth breathing sockpuppet douchenozzle GW fan bois.

Lets get back to the discussion.

Anybody ever looked at the new metal space marines? Stand them next to some good old Jes Goodwin sculpts from 2nd edition. Especially Tigurius, and the space marine veterans. The old metal marines had nice crisp detail of cabling where there arms attached under the shoulderpads, where as the new metal marines look like recasts of the plastics, but in metal.

Hell, Helbrecht's feet aren't even the same length!

Iorek, Crimson Devil - Agree completely. Whilst I think GW books (particularly anything from Forgeworld - Imperial Armour, anyone?) are sometimes hideously overpriced, fair is fair... and every download is one tiny little nail in our hobby's coffin.  

Also (and to be brutally honest), I much prefer reading "hardcopy" anyway. o

As for the recent point about "older" minis quality versus that of the newer miniatures...that's why I'm really only after the older Rogue Trader Marine stuff. Sure, some of it was terrible, but some was sheer genius...they had a lot more "character" or "soul" to them... (plus they don't have the price tag of some of today's models...box set of GK Terminators, for example.)

 

Posted By Toreador on 04/20/2007 7:42 AM
HBMC, I really do remember the days when this board was entirely different, and you said a lot of good things. I just haven't seen as many of late.

And what does that tell you?

I took off the rose-tinted glasses a long time, and saw GW, their prices and their idiotic rulesets for what they really were.

BYE

Posted By Wayfarer on 04/20/2007 10:12 AM
Toreador: It isn't just gamers. Cars are too expensive and fall apart too easily, gas is too expensive, new T.V.s are too expensive, milk is overpriced, and lets not forget computers!. Why back in my day of windows 3.1 we had to use dos on occasion, not like xp and its oversimplified rules. Honestly, ms paint is still a great unit and fluffy too but photoshop is far and away more points efficient.

Either that was an attempt at humour, or one of the worst attempted paralles in history...

BYE

Posted By Iorek on 04/20/2007 5:48 AM
Remember, downloading a codex you don't own is theft, plain and simple.

And every time GW 'adjusts prices', God kills a kitten. >

This is for all the silly fools who thought that GW raised the price of models due to the rising costs of oil....

$22 dollar codeii, lemme guess, the price of trees went up?

'wonk, wonk, wonk!'

Truthfully, paper and corrugated products have been rising very fast over the last 10 years. Don't know the reasons behind it, only know that every year my costs for comic boxes, backing boards, and paper retail bags have gone up at least 10%. One supplier told me he had a 25% increase in raw material cost hit him all at once. Items I paid 1.05 each have gone up to 2.25 each in about an 8 year period.

 

Clearly GWs prices aren't based on inflation, they have simply kept way too far ahead of the inflation rate for that to be true.

While the rising costs of materials has, I'm sure, had some impact on their prices, the real reason is that GW has always stayed on the cutting edge of charging what they can get away with, and they will obviously continue to do so until they are unequivically proven incorrect in their business model.

The fact is, GW has stood the test of time while many other companies have passed into history, filed bankruptcy or were bought by larger entities and we cannot rule out that this has been possible because of the premium price they charge for their products.

You see, even if GW was to drop the prices of their product by 50% today, would gamers continually (and sustainably) start buying more than twice as much product (more than twice as much to cover the loss of profit per item)?

I for one, would not. And that, I think is the problem.

You see, in many ways it might appear like I am the perfect GW customer. I have been buying their products for 15+ years and I have enough disposable income that I currently am not bothered by GW's prices; if I want something, I buy it, simple as that.

The problem is, I already have all the codices, I already have several armies, and I already have a backlog of unpainted miniatures to get to before I even think about buying any more models.

So what does GW make off of me, a very loyal customer with a lot of disposable income? Well, I buy 40k codices and the occasional paint and/or brush. Maybe once every five years or so I might plunk down $300-$500 and buy a whole new army, but in general the actual money I spend on GW on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis doesn't come close to what I spend on things I care much less about.

The point of all this is that GW makes a game that once you are established in it, you don't really have to spend all that much money to keep playing. The very nature of how long it takes someone to paint an army can (and often does) limit how often a player can and will make purchases.

So do I begrudge GW for charging a premium for their products? Nope because it is exactly what I would do if were running the company.

Have they gone too high with their prices to the point where they will drive away too many players to stay in business? Perhaps, but only time will tell for sure.

 

I think it was an attempt to evoke that old chestnut about how everyone views the past as better than it actually was.

I actually have never worn rose coloured glasses. But after spending 8 years in the military, I am pretty much inured to most things. It creates a very thick skin.

No rules set is perfect. Nothing fun is cheap. I don't have to spend my money or play games. It's simple.