US GW 2007 July Price Rise

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**keezus**

Posted By Zoned on 04/23/2007 7:41 PM

And besides, who really stops their WARMACHINE faction at 500pts...I'm already thinking of changing my caster to Siege and my Ironclad to a Defender...

Haha... well, who stops their 40k army at 1700/1850 for that matter?

**Osbad**

Posted By yakface on 04/23/2007 7:41 PM

Kotrin, Tinfoil, et al. -- I know that I'm not necessarily the typical GW gamer and I understand that to many (especially potential new GW gamers) price is a huge issue. The question is, have GW's prices reached the level where they kill the influx of new gamers to the point where the community actually disintegrates? I certainly haven't seen it yet, but the reality may indeed be around the corner.
<<SNIP>>
I also want to mention that I think Warmachine is in the 'golden age' that new games go through. However, eventually all miniature games reach a saturation point where the core audience has purchased all of the miniatures they need to play the game and their purchases dip considerably.
<<SNIP>>
Warmachine hasn't reached the saturation point yet and they won't for many years. However at some point there will be too many factions and units to add anymore and most of the core audience will already own most of the miniatures they want to play the game.

QFT!

ALthough I think WARMACHINE still deserve plaudits for introducing a game that is at last challenging GW's dominance. It may not last forever, but it has not been achieved before - SST, Urban War, Confrontation etc., never achieved this level, let alone sustained it.

You also mention the phenomenon that many gamers need the constant supply of new figures to maintain their interest in a game. This is surely true. I really don't understand it, but it is certainly true that many are attracted to the "NEW KEWL" just because it is "NEW" and for no other reason. Never understood it myself, but it seems to come with the territory.

Anyhow, it will certainly be interesting to see how PP cope with continued expansion - and ehther they succeed where GW appears to be beginning to fail.

**Osbad**

Posted By yakface on 04/24/2007 4:57 AM

If GW were to go the pre-painted route and then slash their prices I think they would do huge, huge business. For example, if I could go buy an army today and put it on the table and play with it tommorrow I would probably drop like 2 grand immediately. I'd love to suddenly have a Tau, Dark Eldar and sisters of battle army to play with.

And this is the "price insensitivity" issue at play. Personally I can't imagine anything as trivial as a wargame being worth my dumping $2k on it in one go. It's not a question of shortage of funds, I could certainly afford to do that if I wanted, but on priorities for that money - there are other things I'd rather do than spend it on toy soldiers. Personally I allocate a certain amount every month for "immediate personal gratification" and generally speaking don't exceed it. So if the price of toy soldiers rises, I buy fewer, or cheaper toy soldiers.

Each to their own of course. But I suspect that while there are many for whom dropping large sums of money on the hobby is not an issue, there are many more who are at the margin and find prices rising faster than their available budget to be a challenge to their enjoyment.

**Toreador**

I hardly ever drop huge sums on any game. I do the whole, buy a little something every paycheck approach. Over time it builds up a lot of models and in the slow trickle I don't notice in the end how much I am really spending. Even in my college days I did the same approach. Buy a pack of figs when I had the money. Buy ramen noodles and really cheap beer to live on.

Actually I applaud PP for making a game that lasts. I don't know how many systems I have had over the year that are now gone. I hope both companies can last.

**Da Boss**

Me too, I hope neither fails. I don't understand the glee of some posters when it appears GW is failing.
It makes me sad, and a little angry, mostly because I reckon I could do that sort of thing if I had to.

**Kotrin**

Posted By yakface on 04/24/2007 4:57 AM

I could ramble on about why I believe it is morally and ethically superior to pay your workers a fair wage but ultimately that's a whole other (big) topic.

I wasn't speaking of an unfair wage when evoking India (or any other country for that matter), simply of a cheaper wage in British Pound equivalent - not locally. No one would be starving. If GW employed chinese people with *exactly* the same benefits, purchase power and social advantages currently offered to its UK employees, they would *still* save an incredible amount of money in the process, simply because of the difference in the cost of living between England and China.

It's not like I'd see Jervis or Jes Goodwin heading for Shanghai, but for production being based in the UK makes no sense.

PM me if you want to discuss this topic a bit more

**Saldiven**

But you know, none of this answers the post I placed earlier.

How come companies like Devildog Design and Black Tree Design Ltd. and compare to GW.

For example, GW "Tomb Kings skeleton regiment" of 16 models for 18 pounds. The Black Tree "Skeleton Scythe Fighters" of 18 models for 13.84 pounds. For some reason, GW has to sell their minis for 1.125 pounds apiece, whereas Black Tree sells theirs for .768. The difference runs the same up and down the list. You can even look at the plastics. Compare a box of eight plastic CSM in the US to a box of WWII plastic model soldiers; the kind made to accompany tanks in dioramas and such. The GW box is $25, the models have relatively few pieces and relatively few bits for customization. Compare that to Tamiya's "WWII German Infantry on Maneouvers" box set. The Tamiya set contains 15 models with more pieces, more little bits for customization (like canteens, knives, satchels, pistols, grenades, etc), are in a larger scale, and better quality. That box comes in at $13.

I'll be honest and blunt. I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for GW to have to raise prices. Other companies do it cheaper while getting by with less volume. Normally, high volume means you can charge less per unit, but that doesn't seem to be working for GW.

Anyway, I'm a little miffed and a little hung over so I'm not making as much sense as I'd like

Later!

Sal

**General Hobbs**

Posted By Saldiven on 04/24/2007 8:30 AM
But you know, none of this answers the post I placed earlier.

How come companies like Devildog Design and Black Tree Design Ltd. and compare to GW.

For example, GW "Tomb Kings skeleton regiment" of 16 models for 18 pounds. The Black Tree "Skeleton Scythe Fighters" of 18 models for 13.84 pounds. For some reason, GW has to sell their minis for 1.125 pounds apiece, whereas Black Tree sells theirs for .768. The difference runs the same up and down the list. You can even look at the plastics. Compare a box of eight plastic CSM in the US to a box of WWII plastic model soldiers; the kind made to accompany tanks in dioramas and such. The GW box is $25, the models have relatively few pieces and relatively few bits for customization. Compare that to Tamiya's "WWII German Infantry on Maneouvers" box set. The Tamiya set contains 15 models with more pieces, more little bits for customization (like canteens, knives, satchels, pistols, grenades, etc), are in a larger scale, and better quality. That box comes in at $13.

I'll be honest and blunt. I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for GW to have to raise prices. Other companies do it cheaper while getting by with less volume. Normally, high volume means you can charge less per unit, but that doesn't seem to be working for GW.

Anyway, I'm a little miffed and a little hung over so I'm not making as much sense as I'd like

Later!

Sal

Let's do a comparison...

1 Box of 10 Space Marines......35.
1 box of 6 Cygnar Stormguard....MSRP 36.99.

points goto GW

Cygnar Captain Haley....5.59
Space Marine Captain....15.00 ( but you get extra parts for other figures. You can make several figs or modify several with the parts.)

points: Draw (IMHO)

Confrontation...The Red Lioness....32.00.
GW...The Green Knight......30.00

points......GW

Guards of Alahan (3)....13.00
Brettonian Men At Arms (16)....35.00

13 x5= 65.00 ( to get 15 guys)

points.....GW

Reaper Men of Arms of Anhur (4)....12.99
Bret Men at Arms (16).......35.00

12.99 X 4= 51.96

points GW.

Mellonir Windrunner....3.69
Average Wood Elf Lord....12.00

Points...Reaper.

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

**Asmodai**

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Erm... why not?

The major systems have very strong support. I see FoW being played at least as often as GW at my FLGS.

Besides which, there's plenty of historical models that make great Empire, Bretonnian, DoW or even Chaos troops. Perfectly usable and in-scale (maybe a little smaller than GW, but not enough to be noticeable).

**Almost Angry**

Not sure I buy into the whole 'I need more figures so it's worse value' argument that gets trawled out all the time. Personally, I need about 2500 more french to get my Borodino army completed, this doesn't mean I slam historical companies for me spending over $5000 on an army.
I play GW, WM and countless other games at levels I can afford and get me excited about playing them.
Back on topic, this price rise certainly hasn't got me worked up, and I see a few more GW armies looming on my horizon.

**Zoned**

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality.

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

**thegrognard**

Posted By Zoned on 04/24/2007 7:12 PM

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality.

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus. And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth. I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest. I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota. I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic. If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

**Zoned**

To thegrognard: I wasn't commenting on how much GW retail makes in terms as profit, I was pointing out that GW has more overheads than other table top wargaming companies, which partly explains why GW's models cost what they do.

**keezus**

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

**Saldiven**

Posted By keezus on 04/25/2007 7:16 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

That's exactly my point. It is amazing what happens to prices for relatively similar items from different producers if one of those producers starts calling themselves a "gaming company" or some such.

We've already looked at miniatures, now lets look at accessories.

Paints. GW paints are, what $2 US for 1/3 ounce? CeramCoat paints are available for about $1.5 for 2 full ounces. Don't get on me about quality; CeramCoat is available at Michaels and is the kind of paint made for art students to use on hard surfaces. Perfectly acceptable quality, except their yellow doesn't cover for crap. Also, my bottle of Black and White paints from them are over 3 years old and still liquid.

Brushes. Look at the GW brushes at your FLGS and then compare them to the prices for higher quality brushes at an art supply store.

The GW tape measure is ridiculously flimsy, but costs about what you'd pay for one from Lowe's or Home Depot that construction contractors buy for their business use.

This isn't just limited to GW. Valejo paints market themselves to gamers, but their quality is no higher than a decent acrylic paint you could buy for 1/3 the price at an art store.

Now, I actually put my money where my mouth is. In the last five years, I have actually spent about $200 on items from "gaming companies," like GW, PP, etc. The majority of what I have purchased have been second hand (ebay, etc), trade, or art supply/hobby store. The only reason I spent that $200 is because I finally broke down and started my first new army since 2000.

I'm amazed that GW thinks that consistently raising prices without increasing quality of product is a good business model. I am pretty sure that model prices have increased by almost 75-100% on average since 2000, which is way above inflation, and unspeakably above any increase in quality.

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Sal

**mikhaila**

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Oh, never, doesn't sound like that at all. Were A's too expensive to use this morning?

**Jester**

lmao

Full points to Mikhaila!

**General Hobbs**

Ask an honest GW employee and they will tll you that GW tape measures, glues etc are sold for convenience. That is...you buy a starter set, get home, you don't have glue to put them together, you either wait or go to a store to buy some. Factor in the gas and time spent, and that amounts to the same price as the horrible GW glues. Same with the primers etc.

The paints on the other hand are perfectly fine.

I have Winsor Newton sable brushes that are better, and have lasted 2 years. They also cost 2-3 times the amount of GW brushes ( which suck and are overpriced IMHO).

**pnweerar**

Hey, Mines of Moria went up $5.

Not you too, Mines of Moria!

**General Hobbs**

Posted By keezus on 04/25/2007 7:16 AM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Your comparison is incomplete:

Space Marine Tactical Squad - $35 ($3.5ea)
Privateer - Flameguard Squad - $25 ($4.10ea)
Rakham - AT-43 UNA Steel Troopers (x6) - $25 ($4.10ea)
Mongoose - MI CAP Troopers (x8) - $15 ($1.88ea)
Tamiya - German Frontline Infantry (x5) - $12 ($2.40ea)

Here's the most telling criticism of GW's wacked out prices - from GW themselves!

LOTR - Easterlings (x20) - $25 ($1.25ea)

As I stated in my post, historicals are cheaper. And there is a broad price change across the board. GW figures are not the cheapest, nor are they the most expensive.

What exactly makes them wacked out?

Look at other industries...car manufacturers for example...why do we have cars that cost 10K to own, and others that cost 30, 40 and 50K or more?

What about restaurants.....why are there steak houses where you can spend 40 bucks on dinner for two, or 100 bucks?

Is there some magical price index that says what you should have to pay for an item, and anything higher is wacked? Is there some unknown or unwritten law that says a company has an obligation or owes something to customers to provide them with goods that fits the customer's budget, at the company's detriment?

**General Hobbs**

Posted By Asmodai on 04/24/2007 3:43 PM

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/24/2007 3:38 PM

Except for the HQ's, it looks to me like GW's prices are on par with most other companies. Of course, you can get historical models dirt cheap....shame you can't use them.

Erm... why not?

The major systems have very strong support. I see FoW being played at least as often as GW at my FLGS.

Besides which, there's plenty of historical models that make great Empire, Bretonnian, DoW or even Chaos troops. Perfectly usable and in-scale (maybe a little smaller than GW, but not enough to be noticeable).

Tournament play, and the only places I have to game at are GW owned.

**General Hobbs**

Posted By thegrognard on 04/24/2007 7:21 PM

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus. And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth. I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest. I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota. I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic. If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

I've heard the Paris store isn't tops anymore, and that G-dub is planning on doubling its stores nationwide.

**Asmodai**

We used to joke about the GW Tape Measure.

It's identical in every way to a tape measure you can get for $1 at Dollarama.

Why is it $12?

Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

**H.B.M.C.**

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

Each one contains a little bit of Rick Priestly's soul.

BYE

**Jester**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/25/2007 8:25 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.
Each one contains a little bit of Rick Priestly's soul.

BYE

Limited Edition, then?

**yakface**

Posted By Asmodai on 04/25/2007 7:51 PM
We used to joke about the GW Tape Measure.

It's identical in every way to a tape measure you can get for $1 at Dollarama.

Why is it $12?

Clearly the Games Workshop sticker cost $11 to manufacture.

And why do Nachos cost $7 at a baseball game when the same exact thing costs $2 at a Seven-Eleven?

Because of convience and they can get away with it.

If someone forgets to bring their tape measure to the GW store when they're there to play a game, how much is it worth to the player to pick up a GW tape measure without the hassle of driving to a hardware store to buy a generic one? Apparently, right around $12.

I don't get why people keep asking what justifies their prices. Any good business is going to set their prices as high as they can and still get away with it. GW is no different.

There is a reason why GW has stayed in business for so long and that is because they've always charged the most they can and still get away with it.

Obviously at some point they may no longer be able to get away with such astronomical increases, but that is the reasoning behind the pricing and I don't understand why that is so hard to fathom.

**Hellfury**

Posted By thegrognard on 04/24/2007 7:21 PM

Posted By Zoned on 04/24/2007 7:12 PM

To Saldiven: I don't know why GW raises their prices at the rate that they do - but I do know why they charge more per model of similar size/quality.

As I've stated before, the main difference between GW and any other company is the extensive retail chain they maintain. Most of their stores (in North America, at least,) are located in high traffic malls that charge high rent. Each store has at least 3 full time staff, and 2 part time staff they pay wages/salary to. The stores in turn must have district managers and regional managers. Maybe these guys in upper management have company cars and cell phones.

All of these costs add up, and spills over to the consumer to pay for. As a veteran customer, who rarely goes to a GW store to shop/play games, I can see why many people forget about GW Retail altogether, and wonder why their models seem to cost more.

Zoned

Yea, unless you're that Paris store that kicks deriere out of all the other shops worldwide, the HC's ain't makin' bupkus. And if they do it's in the 1-2% range of positive growth. I think Milwaukee got a HC because the Chicago Metro has had a slight growth over the past couple years and they wanna take a bigger bite of the Midwest. I'm surprised there isn't one in the Mall of America in Minnesota. I worked for WotC retail in that mall; talk about your walk-in traffic. If a local chain (Air Traffic) can afford a space there, I'm sure G-Dub can too.

It is suprising.

I use the Light rail from there everyday on my way to work at the airport, and Airtraffic is still there (amongst other places like burnsville).

If Lego can have a neat little spot in the middle of things on the first floor where you can buy individual pieces by the cup full, then youd imagine that GW would have a shop there.

But to be honest, I never got to the airtraficc in the mall of america. I go to the burnsville center. Much friendlier and tons more space. Airtraffic has a tiny cubby in the mall of america (like most other shops there) so its a buy your stuff and leave sort of affair. That and their staff is entirely too agressive. I go in there and the first thing out of my mouth is "Leave me alone, I know what I want and I dont care if you play orcs". its neccessary because I go in there ALOT and the guy never seems to remember that I am a dicerning cudtomer and I am not interested in the bosses push prduct for the week.

A GW shop would be the same, but atleast a GW shop would allow you to play there....

**Jester**

You used to be cool, Yak.

No, scratch that. You were never cool.

**Hellfury**

Posted By mikhaila on 04/25/2007 2:44 PM

Or maybe I'm just a chepskate.

Oh, never, doesn't sound like that at all. Were A's too expensive to use this morning?

Haha! Brilliant!

Pwned!

**malfred**

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/25/2007 7:43 PM

Look at other industries...car manufacturers for example...why do we have cars that cost 10K to own, and others that cost 30, 40 and 50K or more?

What about restaurants.....why are there steak houses where you can spend 40 bucks on dinner for two, or 100 bucks?

Take cover! It's the Porsche argument!

I don't know if I buy that argument anymore. It's not the best. It's the
best marketed so it's easy to find opponents.