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Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/07/2007 9:07 AM
BTW, you guys are playing like Message Board Telephone. The quote about the Chaos Basalisk went like this: "Gav said that the guys on the dev team feel that the Defiler rules simply do not reflect what they originally envisioned it as (not a Chaos Basilisk basically)."

Not really, considering the original quote here was this:

... as posted by 'Wraithlord' on the AB40K Maintainers Forums

Defiler is going to be a fast moving CC monster now. Gav said that the guys on the dev team feel that the Defiler rules simply do not reflect what they originally envisioned it as (a Chaos Basilisk basically). The Defiler will have a quick movement mode and quite possibly both an improvement in armour along with a points reduction to make it more palatable to gamers. Gav -really- didn't want to say too much on this topic though so I got no more out of him on it.

That said, it does make more sense (and why I did suspect a misquote). All the art, fluff and even the terrible kit they came up for the Defiler suggests it's a CC monster that's shooty, not an artillery piece with legs that can't hold its own in close combat (which is what the current rules make it). An added pip of armor, the battle cannon reduced to a conquerer style gun, and some sort of CC boost and people might actually find it useful.

However, the defiler really is the least of my worries with the list. The current Dev team has in a few short months made a name out of itself screwing the pooch (Eldar, DA, & BA at a minimum) and I don't see Chaos getting off any better for the wear.

Dreadnoughts are AV12. Assuming, for the sake of CC, you can take the +1AV upgrade and the other one that lets you fix weapons/movement, it'll be just like the chaos dreadnought. The only difference will be the special rampage mode that dreadnoughts go through. So that and cost may be the only differences, and if those are similar then my comment about making a "new" unit the exact same as an old unit, just for "variety's" sake, will be realized.

Screwed the pooch?

Eldar had their craftworlds nerfed, which honestly needed to be done. You can still take lots of Pathfinders, 3x of most aspects other than Dire Avengers, and a splattering of the other options. Honestly if you built a fluffy, non overpowering list with the older Codex's you pretty much were on target with the new dex.

Now if you ran 19 Vypers or had a Seer Council of doom with a bunch of min/maxed Guardian squads with Starcannons/Lances, then yeah you got your pooch screwed.

And yet, the new Eldar are still one of the best armies in the game - I don't see what a lot of players are complaining about, other than the fact that the most extreme varients of the craftworld lists got hit hard.

DA, yeah I can understand. The Terminators being left with only one heavy hurts a ton. Combat squads sucks as does the loss of the mutable sized squads, but people *female dog*ed so much about min/maxing and Marines WERE so powerful because they could min/max so effectively that it lead to people going on about SPACE MUHREENZ (HURR!) left and right. They needed a nerf to get things back to being somewhat sensible, BA are the same way and despite being really good in a lot of areas, at 1500 points they're pretty balanced (not so much after that points level).

The game balance has been out of whack in 40k for a long time, and people have been complaining about it constantly on here and other places, now that they're toning things down, we get more complaining.

I ain't no GeeDub lover and I don't agree with everything they're doing, but geeze it's not like these things are that bad.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/07/2007 9:34 AM

Does F*#& the Eldar sound familiar? I agree with you there, the Eldar Mech Flying Circus of Doom & Spase Klowns does indeed suck ass. There, it's opponents gets to be the pooch being screwed. Likewise, I also agree that craftworlds, to an extent, did get a necessary nerf, but to completely gut them was cheap and rightfully pissed off a lot of people when their armies were invalidated. Now the same is going to happen to the Chaos equivalent. Think of it like a new Ork dex coming out that rips out Kult of Speed, Feral Ork, and Klan themed armies. That's what I'm talking about.

It takes way too much time and money buying, assembling and painting these armies to get them to playable levels to have the jerkbags effectively eliminate specific units or even whole armies at a whim. Why do they do so? Balance? Eliminating a particular unit is just sheer laziness. Of course, that's what we've come to expect from GW, so it doesn't really surprise me.

Which Craftworld, besides maybe Iyanden, isn't playable any more(and this is not playable=unbeatable fromagefest ad absurdum)?

Biel-Tan = check(Warp spiders in fast attack and useable Dire Avengers)
Saim-Hann= Check (Jetbikes and Spear got better)
Ulthwé = Check (without porper seer council, but you can still load on Warlocks and Seer, Guardians are still usefull)
Alaitoc = Check (so, cry me a river, the disruption table is gone... the pathfinders are balanced and warwalker are not bad)
Iyanden = Check (But Wraihtguard is not useable effectively)

And I'm rather pleased with the fact that DA, BT and BA don't seem to have a golden build to crush anything aside. Shame about Tyranids and Eldar powerbuilds, though, because they won't see a revision like the rumoured SM codex...

Greets
Schepp himself

Really the only thing that would be needed to tone down the eldar is something to keep the Falcons in check. Even something that tones down the speeder always glancing rule. The rest of the army is pretty balanced overall.

Rumor has it that the defiler is losing the indirect option but gaining Fleet of Foot. Haven't heard anything regarding armor, weaponry or other stats.

Also heard that daemon summoning will work like current deepstrike rules but the unit can still assault. So no more movement in the movement phase after summoning and no more using the blast template. Also appears that Icon works like a teleport homer so no more scatter when summoning (could be wrong on this though, as this is my interpretation of a second hand statement). Additionally, all marked units have icon (or put another way, the mark is an icon), much like all ravenwing have a teleport homer. So no more smacking down the icon bearer to prevent summoning.

so chaos won't be tooled to destroy everything possible for the rules benders and powergamers anymore. cry me a river...

Personally, I am heartened by the paradigm shift in the dev team's thinking. Instead of the usual codex creep, you have a genuine attempt to balance armies. Sure, elite fexes (which is really what makes 'Nidzilla broken) and the sheer retardedness of falcons kind of puts that statement into question but those are really only two units out of dozens that are broken. Harlequins can be dealt with by savvy players (fast units with firepower) and BA,DA,and BT all got nerfed. Getting an SM Redux and a new Chaos 'dex will go along way (not all the way) towards fixing many of the balance problems.

As a note, after seeing the BA dex, I REALLY think DA got reamed. They should have been allowed to keep 2 unlike heavy weapons in their termie squads (1 ac, 1 cyclone).

As a note, with the imminent Redux, BT will have access to the most ACs.... I forsee many ac-spam armies getting a new paint job...

The Eldar also lost most of the more unique Craftworld options. Spear of Khaine, Court of the Young King, Wraith Gate and Seer Councils to be specific. With the exception of the unlimited warlock council these were hardly game breaking HQ choices. Biel Tan also can't have armies other then avenger heavy ones, since the elite/heavy slots have so much competition. It would have been nice to allow armies lead by a Phoenix lord take their aspect as troops.

Chaos will probably end up the same way, with the cult lists competing for the elite/heavy slots while run of the mill renagades make up the bulk.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 05/07/2007 11:35 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/07/2007 9:34 AM

Does F*#& the Eldar sound familiar? I agree with you there, the Eldar Mech Flying Circus of Doom & Spase Klowns does indeed suck ass. There, it's opponents gets to be the pooch being screwed. Likewise, I also agree that craftworlds, to an extent, did get a necessary nerf, but to completely gut them was cheap and rightfully pissed off a lot of people when their armies were invalidated. Now the same is going to happen to the Chaos equivalent. Think of it like a new Ork dex coming out that rips out Kult of Speed, Feral Ork, and Klan themed armies. That's what I'm talking about.

It takes way too much time and money buying, assembling and painting these armies to get them to playable levels to have the jerkbags effectively eliminate specific units or even whole armies at a whim. Why do they do so? Balance? Eliminating a particular unit is just sheer laziness. Of course, that's what we've come to expect from GW, so it doesn't really surprise me.

The thing is though, that GW realizes it had been doing this and Jervis recently said that it isn't going to happen anymore.  If they make an army, it is going to be fully supported.  Forever.  It means we won't get cool things like Kult of Speed, Feral Orks, etc, but it does mean that when you invest in an army, its never going to go the way of the squats.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Eh, a nerf is ok but dumbing down and removing the armory is just crap.

Its also good to know that the FORCES OF CHAOS are a POWER ARMOR ONLY CLUB. Seriously, they need to keep stuff like LatD but I am afraid they won't. In all the crappy Black Library publications you hardly ever read about full on chaos armies but the subtle cults of mutants and traitors that try to burn down the imperium from within.

I keep hearing BS about "The devs don't like the cults they way they are handled in the current codex." So you take them out?

I really hope its not going to be as crappy as it sounds. Whe it happens, maybe it will be a good time to start using the dice for a more complex game like Monopoly.

i'd like to see more chaos armies like Blood Pact. there is SO much lit on them, how come they havn't gotten a list. if there was more than just MEQ's for chaos im sure there would be a lot more people willing to play for the dark gods.

Well, Blood Pact is pretty much an IG army but eeeevil. Brimstone at Warseer did say that there will be another Chaos dex, focusing on the non-power armored versions of Chaos.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Cults is referring to the Cult Space Marine Chapters. Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, World Eaters....

Not in reference to LoTD, which may get a book in the future.

ah, my bad. skimming 4 pages tends to let you miss stuff such as that =-)


taking away of the armouries does suck, but it also limits the brokability (hah, cool word) of the said armies. i havn't read the DA codex so i cant judge how everyone says it got neutered, but from what i've seen with the eldar codex, its a lot harder to break the army (unless you just take X ammount of harlies) . which, since its only one unit, you can plan around it, like someone else said.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 05/07/2007 11:35 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/07/2007 9:34 AM

Does F*#& the Eldar sound familiar? I agree with you there, the Eldar Mech Flying Circus of Doom & Spase Klowns does indeed suck ass. There, it's opponents gets to be the pooch being screwed. Likewise, I also agree that craftworlds, to an extent, did get a necessary nerf, but to completely gut them was cheap and rightfully pissed off a lot of people when their armies were invalidated. Now the same is going to happen to the Chaos equivalent. Think of it like a new Ork dex coming out that rips out Kult of Speed, Feral Ork, and Klan themed armies. That's what I'm talking about.

It takes way too much time and money buying, assembling and painting these armies to get them to playable levels to have the jerkbags effectively eliminate specific units or even whole armies at a whim. Why do they do so? Balance? Eliminating a particular unit is just sheer laziness. Of course, that's what we've come to expect from GW, so it doesn't really surprise me.

Familiar? That's my all time favorite thread (warning, I'm heading back to Japan tommorrow - there may be more late night drunken Dakka posts).

Still I was thinking of it in terms of someone who owned the army.  Eldar are mad broken sure, and they managed to do it with technically about 3 units (Harlies, Falcons, Fire Prisms).  But then again, Jervis's reign didn't come in till the DA dex. 

And GW did pretty much state that things like Ferals were going away.  Any time there's a list like that in a WD or whatever I'm leary about building it.  That's why instead of converting my Orks to be Ferals (and all the money associated with that), I figured they'd go away and bought Space Marines (HURR!!) instead as a second army. 

It's a risk they run, and now while they are toning things down they are saying that what they put out now is going to be supported. 

And seriously there are certain things that need to be fixed.  Do I think there will be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth when Nids get redone and the 2 TL Devourer Fex w/ Enhanced Senses is no longer 113 points or even a valid option (for an elite slot)?  Hell yes, there will be moaning to the heavens, but you know what, every Nid player who will *female dog* about that would be lying if they said it wasn't something that was detrimental to the game and was unbalancing. 

Every time a dex comes out things change; it's inevitable and it's for the best really.  The only thing that makes me sad is that Nids & Eldar will not get a revision for some time unlike Marines.   Honestly if they do the balancing right with Chaos, and Marines get toned down, and the Orks get un-slowed, the game will be so much better to play (outside of Godzilla Nids & some Eldar builds).

Posted By Da Boss on 05/06/2007 6:17 PM
So we may be looking at 13 MEQ lists and 7 non MEQ?
Ridiculous.

There's no reason why Chaos has to be MEq.  They could have cultists and stuff (if GW would bother to include them).

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 05/07/2007 1:58 PM

As a note, after seeing the BA dex, I REALLY think DA got reamed. They should have been allowed to keep 2 unlike heavy weapons in their termie squads (1 ac, 1 cyclone).

Almost correct. But I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

BA and DA Termies got reamed because they pay 200 points for a unit that can have only one heavy weapon.

Thats where the ream came in. One heavy weapon is fine, if they make the squad commensertaly priced. As it stands, 200-230 points for a unit with one heavy weapon and basically nothing else, not even vet skills is a piss-poor excuse of balancing. it is definatly a nerf in the strictest sense.

While I applaud GW for trying to balance this stuff out, there is somethings they took it way too far on.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/07/2007 9:13 PM

Posted By Da Boss on 05/06/2007 6:17 PM
So we may be looking at 13 MEQ lists and 7 non MEQ?
Ridiculous.

There's no reason why Chaos has to be MEq.  They could have cultists and stuff (if GW would bother to include them).

I was looking at what the guy said about possible 4 cult books,  like DA or whatever.

So we'd have- Vanilla Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Space  Wolves, Vanilla Chaos, Thousand Sons, Death Gaurd, World Eaters and Emperors Children, and then Necrons, Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters.

That's 66% of the game with a 3+ save. It's be like all the armies in WFB being composed of variations on Heavy Cavalry.

(There is the argument that Witch Hunters aren't a real MEQ I'll grant you)

No reason Chaos has to be MEQ?

No there isn't. Well other than the fact that they probably wouldn't be as popular as they are now if they weren't MEQ's.

I made a thread on this before, it's not even that there are a bunch of armies that are just "MEQ's", even the "Non-MEQ" codex's ignore a lot of their options and just go for MEQ like units (Crisis/Suits/JetBikes/etc) or units that are better than MEQ (Godzilla, etc).

Honestly with the way the AP system works, the game not only favors 3+ Save armies, but it works better when both players are using it.

I'd also proffer the current rumor on Warseer-no cultists. Its all marines (and some demons) all the time. I'll keep my LATD and just use the new dex for allies.

And Voodoo-to help you on your trip/drinking in Japan. Eldar rule marines drool!

Seriously. You need finesse to win with Eldar. All you gotta do with Marines is line up the las plas and Ass Cans.
Hurr.

WOOO! SPASE MAHRUNEZ EVURUH WARE@!!!!! Skrew dem kultistz, dey were all cheese mongering power gaming poopy heads anyway. AM I RITE??!?!?! (Hurrr)



Seriously, if GW would simply ditch the god awful AP system and returned to armor save modifiers (Oh Noes! Maths! EEK!) the MEq/Geq disparity wouldn't be anywhere as pronounced and imbalancing. But no, can't admit to our mistake, can we? Arrogance and pride always come before the fall...

And every army wouldn't need a rending unit to be balanced.

In response to Hellfury, i agree paying 200-300pts for a unit that can only take 1 heavy weapon sucks, but if yer refering to imperial termies then all you have to do is compare them with chaos termies at the moment and you will see that imperial termies are better even with only one heavy weapon, the assault cannon.  Chaos termies are expensive and their heavy options are only OK, IMHO.

If GW really is doing 2 chaos codexes then that will be pretty cool.  I have a substantial LATD army and am currently working on converting up an Iron Warrior LATD army, so if they come out with new rules for them i'll be happy. 

I dont like the Idea of dumbing down the wargear, i love the fact that you can have characters in the current dex that can be so unique and different.

I am also annoyed by the rumor that Iron Warriors will no longer get a basilisk, that was ALWAYS their thing.  We dont get demons all we get is marines and big guns now i guess all we'll get is marines.

I always wondered why they made the basilisk an option though. Surely a demolisher siege tank would have been more correct?

I always wonder at that name - it's a horrible misnomer. If you're engaged a siege, you don't want a short-range gate-buster, you want batteries of long-range, indirect-firing artillery. Which is why the IW had a basilisk, and why indirect-firing Defilers fit the concept.

I'm not saying I'm happy about the Cultists going away, since it wasn't exactly unbalanced and people enjoyed using them - who cares? They should stay if there was any justice, or GW should put out a WD list to tide over people with cultists. 

But you can hardly look at the current Chaos dex and say it's not an MEQ codex. 

Even if there are other options 99% of the choices taken are MEQ of some variety.  That's just the way the game is played - how many armies go almost completely for MEQ like units or better when building the list.

Also, I take offense to this:

Posted By Da Boss on 05/08/2007 7:01 AM
Seriously. You need finesse to win with Eldar. All you gotta do with Marines is line up the las plas and Ass Cans.
Hurr.

Saying that it takes "finesse" to win with Eldar is like saying that Richard Simmon's gay mannerisms are "subtle".

Neither statement could be further from the truth.

There are no special tactics required to putting Harlies and/or some other units in Falcons and flying them around the board.  Heck the "fragile" Eldar sure are a hell of a lot harder to kill than my supposedly "awesomely tough" Orks are. 

But then, that's a problem with the AP system that exists.  I'm with you 100% on that Nyarl, WHFB is so much better at taking care of high armored units compared to 40k.

Still I can't stop playing or enjoying 40k, despite how much I like playing Fantasy and how much I can acknowledge that it's the better game.

Posted By Janthkin on 05/08/2007 9:55 AM

Surely a demolisher siege tank would have been more correct?

I always wonder at that name - it's a horrible misnomer. If you're engaged a siege, you don't want a short-range gate-buster, you want batteries of long-range, indirect-firing artillery. Which is why the IW had a basilisk, and why indirect-firing Defilers fit the concept.

If you're engaged in a siege, you want orbital support, failing that a skytrain of imperial B-52 comparables, failing that massed basilisk/manticore artillery parks, firing from distance. The concept of 15th century siege tactics doesn't hold, even in the 40K world.