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I've tried and tried to get people to play their 2k pts of 40k armies vs. my 35 pts of BFG escort ship, but no one's taken me up on it yet.

(Assuming an other-wise contained area, I'd prefer the artillery/rocket emplacements over fliers. Your artillery doesn't risk much in the way of return fire, whereas fliers may get shot at. And the points cost on fliers is huge! Not to mention the Forgeworld prices; Abadon's not made of money, you know. Basilisks are cheap, in all applicable meanings of the word.)

Posted By Janthkin on 05/08/2007 11:36 AM
And the points cost on fliers is huge! Not to mention the Forgeworld prices; Abadon's not made of money, you know. Basilisks are cheap, in all applicable meanings of the word.)

And to say that you never need a siege tank isn't probably correct. There are so many variables that everything becomes a tool. In a universe were almost anything can happen, almost anything can and does.

Posted By jfrazell on 05/08/2007 10:47 AM

If you're engaged in a siege, you want orbital support, failing that a skytrain of imperial B-52 comparables, failing that massed basilisk/manticore artillery parks, firing from distance. The concept of 15th century siege tactics doesn't hold, even in the 40K world.

[big fat nerd hypothesis]I'd say that in an Imperium of a million worlds, probably half of them wouldn't be equipped to defend against even 15th century siege tactics, and probably half of those wouldn't even be able to get a signal to someone who could.[/big fat nerd hypothesis]

Sometimes you have to go to war with the army you have, as it were.

Yes but the guys toting the "siege machinery" are not 15th century spaniards, but chaos space marines. They'dnot have problems knocking down the pre-industrial culture. EVen more reason to have stand off artillery.

 

Edit: On the positive any chaos player who plunked down a basilisk and counted it as a "siege assault basi" would be ok by me (using vindi rules). I see no need to acquire more vindis if you already spent money converting a basi.

Voodoo- that was a wind up.
*Twists little cog at the back of Voodoo's back round and round*
I see yer points about the dumbness of the siege tank.
Well, to be honest, seiges stopped happening on that scale pretty much when both sides got access to cannons.

Posted By Toreador on 05/08/2007 1:36 PM
And to say that you never need a siege tank isn't probably correct. There are so many variables that everything becomes a tool. In a universe were almost anything can happen, almost anything can and does.

I agree.

Also, look at the fluff.

The only world's worth fighting for are those that are too valuable to bomb from orbit (Gaunt's Ghosts).

It makes sense that if the world's factories or whatever are too valuable to bomb from orbit, you wouldn't necessarily want to level them with artillery either.

The Vindicator is a relatively precise weapon compared to long-range Basilisk barrages. It can assist in a city fight by destroying specific buildings or providing covering fire with its Storm Bolter.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 6:21 AM
or providing covering fire with its Storm Bolter.

Awesome!  Rock that 8/9 of a Guardsman per turn! 

The Demolisher and Vindicator seem particularly suited for street-fighting too.  Breaching the wall is only PART of the siege; you still have to dig the defenders out.

Posted By Iorek on 05/09/2007 6:38 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 6:21 AM
or providing covering fire with its Storm Bolter.

Awesome!  Rock that 8/9 of a Guardsman per turn! 

You might feel differently if it was shooting at you.


"The Demolisher and Vindicator seem particularly suited for street-fighting too.  Breaching the wall is only PART of the siege; you still have to dig the defenders out."


That's what the dozer blade is for.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 7:08 AM

Posted By Iorek on 05/09/2007 6:38 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 6:21 AM
or providing covering fire with its Storm Bolter.

Awesome!  Rock that 8/9 of a Guardsman per turn! 

You might feel differently if it was shooting at you.

Yeah, but I'm just a fleshy meatsack with no armor.  I'm afraid of Supersoakers and Nerf guns, too. 

Don't diss the Storm Bolter! The ones mounted on my Rhinos usually kill more enemies than the squad it just dumped out.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Iorek on 05/09/2007 6:38 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 6:21 AM
or providing covering fire with its Storm Bolter.

Awesome!  Rock that 8/9 of a Guardsman per turn! 

The Demolisher and Vindicator seem particularly suited for street-fighting too.  Breaching the wall is only PART of the siege; you still have to dig the defenders out.

No no, thats what the hellhound is for...whoosh!!!

Eldar and Big Bug Nids put the player on the EASY mode of gameplay and seriously while not just anyone can win with these armies hands down, their tactics dont require much thought. Winning with those armies is as impressive as watching the Yankees challenge a peewee baseball team.

Posted By thehod on 05/09/2007 9:46 AM
Eldar and Big Bug Nids put the player on the EASY mode of gameplay and seriously while not just anyone can win with these armies hands down, their tactics dont require much thought. Winning with those armies is as impressive as watching the Yankees challenge a peewee baseball team.

Spoken like a true marine player.  Lets get real here. We're not talking grandmaster tactics from any force in 40K.

cmon thehod. any army can be broken. just because eldar have one unit that destroys everything, and bugz have bugzilla lists, doesnt mean they arent unbeatable. you get like a million ACs dude, dont female dog to us eldar players =-)

I am sorry, Eldar are an extremely hard army to master and allow for very little errors in judgement. The only real problem players have with the Eldar is the Falcon, and even that isn't really broken.

Posted By jfrazell on 05/09/2007 10:17 AM

Posted By thehod on 05/09/2007 9:46 AM
Eldar and Big Bug Nids put the player on the EASY mode of gameplay and seriously while not just anyone can win with these armies hands down, their tactics dont require much thought. Winning with those armies is as impressive as watching the Yankees challenge a peewee baseball team.

Spoken like a true marine player.  Lets get real here. We're not talking grandmaster tactics from any force in 40K.

Quoted for truthiness.

40K is a very simple game. It doesn't take much tactical foresight to win with any of the armies. Eldar have always been forgiving. Now its Falcons, last edition it was the Ulthwe Seer Council with rerollable 4+ Invulnerable Saves and a dozen ablative Warlocks.

This fits in with Eldar's reputation as being the toughest diehards in the galaxy.

The only armies I can see as requiring 'skill and finesse' are Kroot Mercs and (arguably) Grey Knights.

Checkers, Chess, and Go are very simple games. To say they don't require much tactical foresight either would be silly though.

Some armies have the upper hand against others, but depending on tactics, dice and mission things can change. I have seen people lose because they didn't keep their eyes on the mission goals. Having said that, Eldar and ZIlla bugz are easier to play with against most armies. It still isn't a sure thing, but it weights the game in your favor. Escalation missions can put the hurt on both of those armies.

Eldar builds with only 1 falcon aren't that way. A foot army is quite a bit harder to play. It all depends on how you build the lists.

"Checkers, Chess, and Go are very simple games. To say they don't require much tactical foresight either would be silly though."

None of them base your success on your ability to roll 6's either.

40K has more in common with craps.

Posted By jfrazell on 05/09/2007 10:17 AM

Posted By thehod on 05/09/2007 9:46 AM
Eldar and Big Bug Nids put the player on the EASY mode of gameplay and seriously while not just anyone can win with these armies hands down, their tactics dont require much thought. Winning with those armies is as impressive as watching the Yankees challenge a peewee baseball team.

Spoken like a true marine player.  Lets get real here. We're not talking grandmaster tactics from any force in 40K.

  Actually I play Dark Eldar as my main army.

@commisar-Kaine I know there are plenty of other lists that are in the same tier as Big Bugs and Eldar with some that just roll dice and nothing else. Eldar did go from slightly fragile to slightly reslient plus the deatproof falcon/fireprism. I did not mean to bash Eldar players as most are pretty good players just there will always be that jackhole that ruins it and that isint limited to Eldar players its all jackhole players.

  I do like the analogy of 40K being more along the lines of craps.

I always bring Eldar when I play Yahtzee.

Posted By thehod on 05/09/2007 3:16 PM
Eldar did go from slightly fragile to slightly reslient plus the deatproof falcon/fireprism.

Now I want a falcon piloted by Kurt Russell!

Only a cheesy player would bring Eldar to Yahtzee.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

And I don't know about inv or deathproof. Last game I saw of eldar vs marines I watched two falcons go down in flames in two turns. Sure took some finesse and tactics from the eldar player at that point to try to even pull out a draw.

Posted By Toreador on 05/09/2007 7:41 PM
And I don't know about inv or deathproof. Last game I saw of eldar vs marines I watched two falcons go down in flames in two turns. Sure took some finesse and tactics from the eldar player at that point to try to even pull out a draw.

I've seen a squad of Gretchin kill Ezekial and Azreal in the same round.

That doesn't mean that I expect them to do so reliably.

Falcons are very resilient. Much more so than Land Raiders, probably more so than Monoliths. Certain armies (like Orks) really struggle to scratch them.

Obviously invulnerable is hyperbole, but as hyperbole goes, it's got a solid basis in reality.

Yep I have seen a lot of crazy things in games. I think everyone is in agreement that Falcons are just over the top for the points. Orks have an issue, but the codex was out how long ago? We will see if this winter fixes anything.

Spring technically.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/09/2007 6:33 PM
Only a cheesy player would bring Eldar to Yahtzee.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

In fact, its my understanding that the dreaded Rending ELDAR/YAHTZEE ARMY OF ULTIMATE DOOM is about to be banned from tournaments. Its taken me years to convert all those eldar and Yahtzee pieces. I juist can't believe they would do that! Snakes on a Yahtzee board armies aren't overpowered. Its just whining players who can't bother to learn tactics that are getting this list nerfed...