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Funny, but true. Toreador has used a similar phrase a good few times.
(Well, it's not that funny really, that's the kind of place this is.)

Obviously somebody here is so wrapped up in insulting people and trying to twist their words to bother to get an education and understand what a rhetorical question is.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/10/2007 8:26 AM
My personal dislike is kept for the as yet un named *fudge*er who keeps the ork and Dark Eldar codices languishing in development hell.

My guess is that would be Tom Kirby or one of his similarly idiotic cronies that have been systematically driving GW into the ground. At least DE got a power up midway through 3rd Edition via their revised codex, but their models are strictly late 2nd ed, and Orks have been languishing under their early 3rd ed 'dex for, what, ten years now? It's one of those obvious "well, these aren't selling well, so lets not put any effort into them" despite the fact that it's obvious (to the fans) that the reason they aren't selling well is because they aren't putting any effort into them.

As for LotR, I love the figs and while the movies were out I bought several boxed sets and blisters, both for myself, and for painting up and giving out as gifts to friends & family that are huge Tolkien fans. Yet, I haven't built, much less painted any of the sets I got for me, nor have I so much as played a demo game (though I've seen demos & regular games played on occasion). I just don't have the time and it's not high enough on my priority list to do with other competing interests (which have been, at times, various 40k & WHFB projects, 15mm WWII, and WAB, amongst others). So is it so hard to believe that someone can like the game, but not have had time to build their own army? This isn't exactly a "fast" hobby...

My first printing of Codex Orks is copyrighted 1999.

Yeah mine too.
So 8 years.
It's not the amount of time spent languishing so much as the botched "cycle" they have going.

Cycle meaning evolutionary? As in.. it took 1000nd years?

An interesting tidbit from one of the other rumour places was that if the BA update goes well that there is a good probability of a Dark Eldar and maybe Necron update the same way next year.

But then again...

Since when does cycle mean evolutionary?
O_o

Posted By Ghaz on 05/10/2007 11:45 AM
Obviously somebody here is so wrapped up in insulting people and trying to twist their words to bother to get an education and understand what a rhetorical question is.

Still not managed the ignore part eh Ghaz? Here's a tip 'ignore' and 'reply' don’t mean the same thing.

BTW: Nice try, but a public message board isn't the best place to retroactively decide your question was rhetorical is it? (Do you see what I did there?)

Posted By Toreador on 05/09/2007 7:39 PM
I think LOTR is a really good game. The figs are nice and it is a joy to me. I just don't have anything. I have just never gotten into it. Same thing with a lot of other things. Not having does not mean do not like.

I agree. For the record I wrote that LOTR is ok.

I like some of the figures and many of the game mechanics (apart form the dumb 3rd ed fantasy style push back rule) but I think the game has limited scope compared to the likes of WFB and 40K. Which means I don't like it enough to spend my hard earned ££ on it.

SR: Is Games Workshop run by professionals or hobbyists? Or are they just professional hobbyists/ hobby professionals?

Andy: Both – there are hobbyists at every level. Some start out that way, others come in from elsewhere and develop a love for the hobby once here. You can be a good accountant and a good hobbyist remember, as many people with jobs outside the industry will know.

What a great question.  It's not for Andy to definitively answer this, but I think GW has been praised or skewered depending on how one views the actual composition within GW.  I go both ways in my own opinion.

Yes it's a fluff piece (lacking specific product or company news), but it's purpose is to let us get to know the insiders better and identify who they are and where they're coming from.  It's like Teen Beat but a LOT nerdier.  

Posted By George Spiggott on 05/11/2007 4:04 AM

Posted By Ghaz on 05/10/2007 11:45 AM
Obviously somebody here is so wrapped up in insulting people and trying to twist their words to bother to get an education and understand what a rhetorical question is.

Still not managed the ignore part eh Ghaz? Here's a tip 'ignore' and 'reply' don’t mean the same thing.

BTW: Nice try, but a public message board isn't the best place to retroactively decide your question was rhetorical is it? (Do you see what I did there?)

  Jesus!  Can you two take it to the PMs please?  Thanks.  

  To me, the most interesting part of the interview is the assurance that we can expect some sort of continuing support of the concept of "variant lists," the future of which seemed to be in doubt.  I know a lot of people are worried about Lost and the Damned, and I'd be sad to see the 13th Company disappear, as the concept is perfectly charming.  I've been looking forward to Legion of the Damned rules since 4th edition came out, and Jervis nearly squashed my little hopes. 

Nearly? I'd be happy to send you my copy of Codex Dark Angels if you'd like to rid yourself of that pesky vestige of optimism.

After seeing the stuff about Kirby being "mad as hell" or whatever about the state of GW, it does make me wonder if the dumbing down is really the fault of the developers.  Maybe the top level sales guys are saying "this needs to be simpler so we can get into a younger demographic" or something similar.  But I can't forget the half dozen times I've seen Jervis relate the story about how he watched his kid learn to play 40K and how it showed him all the assumptions he had made in rules understanding...  I think he really does believe that a wargear section, that ICs with more than five upgrade options, are just too complicated to deal with.  If he's just following orders, he wouldn't relate it to his personal life, would he?

Things are oddly quiet on this, so I'll ask: What is the next 40K Codex expected to be, and will Jervis be involved?

Actually I don't agree. The way to be truly great at something is to have it be your job and your hobby. I am a software engineer, I sit at a computer writing code all day, then I come home and play computer games, or work on my own projects, etc. etc. And that's with gaming thrown in there. I work with guys that work on .net applications all day, then go home and read about .net programming. It's their hobby and their job. It's actually a great situation to be in, because it makes you that much better at your job, you earn that much more, and you love it.

In a society of specialized labor, as the entire western world is, being well rounded is actually not worth much. You're much better off being totally obsessed with one thing, and then doing that for a living.

I certainly hope that GW's game designers spend 16 hours a day on this stuff. If they don't, they need to step aside, because somewhere in this world of 6+ billion people, there's somebody that will.

I find it both worrying and amusing that:
JJ's son plays Blood Angels.
JJ's son looooves mephiston.
New Blood Angels codex comes outta nowhere, with a much more powerful Mephiston.
A worrying look at how decisions are made? Hopefully not...

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 1:30 PM

Jervis nearly squashed my little hopes.

Nearly? I'd be happy to send you my copy of Codex Dark Angels if you'd like to rid yourself of that pesky vestige of optimism.

  Really?  Free codex?  Thanks! 

  I thought that the new codex was quite nice, personally.  Much better than the last one, or even the 2nd edition one. From what I understand, the Dark Angels got hit a little too hard with the nerf bat, but as a casual player that's of little concern to me, personally.  Oh, the design and layout kind of sucked, come to think about it.  Well, there was some nice background and a good variety of images dating back to the Rogue Trader book, which was a nice touch for us veterans (or a shrewd cost-saving measure, your choice). 

  Whoa.  Way off-topic there.  Where was I?

  Right.  Squashed hopes.  Jervis' statement that GW would be far more conservative about starting new armies: THAT was what almost squashed my hopes.  There are so many concepts that deserve some sort of treatment by the crew; I'd love a bunch of John Blanche Adeptus Mechanicus models or something...

I wish Jervis would adopt me so the Ork codex would come out sooner.

Do you really want to be calling Jervis "Daddy"?

For a decent codex and a new Trukk kit, I think I would.

I'd even sign his Father's Day card "Love, Jester".

Posted By Iorek on 05/12/2007 8:53 PM
Do you really want to be calling Jervis "Daddy"?

Id even call him daddy, in the benny bensassi sort of way...


I have to give Phryxis an "Exalt Trismagestus" For the post on loving your job.

If they developers loved there job half as much as some posters I have seen love the GW hobby on forums over the years, I really doubt we would have games devs designing codicies in this new format because his son is too mentally insufficient to figure stuff out.

Ok that was harsh towards a child whom I dont know, but the fact remains that this game IS BEING GEARED TOWARDS 12 YR OLDS, predominatly now. So get used to it, or play more grown up games with more grownup rules, like....horrorclix...

Or golf. [ducks]

I think it's OK from a high level, it's just so full of glaring bizzareness that I couldn't get past. I think the list is balanced, interesting, distinct from other Marines lists... But the strange, pointless little nerfs. Like, taking an attack from ICs, not giving them Term Honors... What the hell is that? Doesn't make ore break the list, but it's just annoying. I'll field vanilla Marines rather than wonder what the crap is wrong with Jervis every time I charge an HQ into CC.



Yeah, but didn't you hear that they're going to be conservative about starting new armies? They've got a bunch of Marine chapters that need Codices before this army you're talking about... What is it... Orks? I mean, I think I heard fluff about them once a long while back, but come on. Do you really want to short change the White Scars?



If only I knew what that meant...



A guy at the FLGS said today that 12 year olds have more disposable income than any other demographic. I don't know if that's true, maybe just true for the market segment GW is in. But it certainly explains things.

Time for Advanced 40K? Or is that just Fantasy?

Honestly, I'd go Fantasy this second if the damn armies weren't so huge. I don't want to paint 120 models when I know I won't be able to build a decent list my first (or tenth) try.

The thing about fantasy is that except at high level play (and I mean very high level, with the totally out there lists) most list builds you go for will be useful and pretty good.

I had a dream last night that I saw the new ork codex and everything in it was wonderful. Considering the amount of other crap going on in my life right now, that is worrying and amazing.

I don't buy into the idea that you need to dumb a game down to appeal to twelve year olds though, I started playing aged twelve and I never thought it was that difficult. D'n'D has plenty of very complicated rules, and 12 year olds grasp that just fine.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM
Honestly, I'd go Fantasy this second if the damn armies weren't so huge. I don't want to paint 120 models when I know I won't be able to build a decent list my first (or tenth) try.

:|

That about says it all for the dumbing down of 40K, right there. 

Just how many tries, and how few models, does it take to build a 'decent' list in 40K? 

I guess I am more interested in the hobby aspect of miniatures wargaming than I am the 'winning' aspect.  But when I read something like that, I can't help but think some people are missing the point.  I mean, you want a decent list with minimum models, go play Hordes.  For historical game armies, 120 figures is nothing, just a basic Napoleonic corps or Civil War battalion.  Heck, I have more than 120 Zulus in a single Impi!

Not that I am attacking Phryxis or his position, you understand; but Games Workshop used to be a good gateway into a larger hobby.  If many people, especially younger gamers, share Phryxis's point of view that 120 figures is too much of an investment to get started in a game system, it worries me.  Perhaps they wouldn't feel it's too much if the GW figures weren't so expensive; on the other hand, if it is the time & effort required to paint that many figures, then I start to feel like an old fogey. 

"Back when I first started gaming, we didn't have shops- we played in each other's basements!  We had to walk uphill through chest-deep snow, both ways!  And we painted our own minchures, none of these dam' pre-paints.  And they were made of lead!  And we all got lead poisoning from licking our minchures, but did that stop us?  Hell, no.  You think 120 minchures is a lot?  Just you look in that cabinet over there- that there is 73,000 minchures, and they're all lead.  In my day, you had to be strong to carry an army around.  When the air-raid sirens went off, we'd get in the closet behind that cabinet... stop the radiation from an H-bomb, it will.  And if a minchure fell on the floor, it broke, and you were sorry, and you dam' well learned to be careful!  None of this modern namby-pamby plastic that bounces back up into your hand.  No sir.  And lead was cheap.  We used to get eight orcs for five dollars- what do you think of that, Mr. two-dollars-for-a-plastic-orc?"

Different strokes for different folks fellblade, that's what I always say- if the guy doesn't have the money or free time to mindlessly collect 2000 models, that's up to him.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM
Time for Advanced 40K? Or is that just Fantasy?

Honestly, I'd go Fantasy this second if the damn armies weren't so huge. I don't want to paint 120 models when I know I won't be able to build a decent list my first (or tenth) try.

  Necromunda is Advanced 40K. 

  Some Fantasy armies do fine small.  I play Chaos (or, I should say that I PLAYED Chaos until the Space Marine bug bit me) and I had a small model-count.  Some heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, some expensive characters, and you're good to go.  Marauders?  Who needs 'em!

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM
They've got a bunch of Marine chapters that need Codices before this army you're talking about... What is it... Orks? I mean, I think I heard fluff about them once a long while back, but come on. Do you really want to short change the White Scars?

Honestly, I'd rather see a White Scars codex than a Dark Angels (or Black Templars *puke*) one.  WS have more potential for variant rules than any other chapter save Space Wolves; you wouldn't need to scrape the bottom of the fluff barrel to come up with rules to make them "different".  But instead we get Codex: Dark Angels and Deathwing Assault.

I'd really rather see a non marine codex somewhere, anywhere.
I was delighted with the Space Marine codex when it came out, because I thought, "Wow, now they won't have to release like 5 variant chapters, people can just DIY their Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves with the traits system!"
Instead I got Dark Angels and Blood Angels and Black Templars before the Lads, and now "Redux"?
Should that be Codex Space Marines: feth Up?

That's pretty much what it is for me, time and effort. I have certain standards about what I play with. I won't play with unpainted models, I won't really even play with models I'm not fairly proud of the work I did on them. So, a 120 model army means I'll need at LEAST six months before I can even play... I really am primarily interested in the hobby aspect, not the gaming aspect... But 6 months of work on a crap list would still make me very annoyed.

Plus I also already have about 8 40K armies of 1500 points or more, and it's much easier to find 40K games around where I am than Fantasy.

So it all adds up... I'm not going to spend 6 months painting 120 models for a list that probably won't be that effective, that I won't be able to use, not even if I have a friend over and loan him an army to use (since I'd only have one).



Well, the sad thing is I did have the time and money to collect 2000 model, or something close to that. I'm just not sure I want to start over again.

I certainly still could find the time, and definitely have the money ($500 over 6 months really isn't that much to come up with), but I'm just not sure I want to spend that time that way. Ultimately what I'm getting at is that I'll deal with the shortcomings and frustrations of 40K, because I already have a lot invested in it, I know I can find games, and maybe Jervis will quit sometime soon.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM

I have to give Phryxis an "Exalt Trismagestus" For the post on loving your job.

If only I knew what that meant...

its a compliment, really.
Exalt three times majestic or "three chears" if you prefer.

Posted By fellblade on 05/13/2007 8:44 AM

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM
Honestly, I'd go Fantasy this second if the damn armies weren't so huge. I don't want to paint 120 models when I know I won't be able to build a decent list my first (or tenth) try.

:|

That about says it all for the dumbing down of 40K, right there. 

Just how many tries, and how few models, does it take to build a 'decent' list in 40K? 

I guess I am more interested in the hobby aspect of miniatures wargaming than I am the 'winning' aspect.  But when I read something like that, I can't help but think some people are missing the point.  I mean, you want a decent list with minimum models, go play Hordes.  For historical game armies, 120 figures is nothing, just a basic Napoleonic corps or Civil War battalion.  Heck, I have more than 120 Zulus in a single Impi!

Not that I am attacking Phryxis or his position, you understand; but Games Workshop used to be a good gateway into a larger hobby.  If many people, especially younger gamers, share Phryxis's point of view that 120 figures is too much of an investment to get started in a game system, it worries me.

I think you will find that is exactly where GW is taking this. in 1500 pt games, I am not seeing a whole lot more than 50-60 models, unless I am playing again guard or orks. Even bugs dont have high numbers anymore. I am not complaining though, as I love playing large point games with huge amounts of models, but it is harkening bak to 2nd ed with 40 models in a 1500 pt force.

Nice old fogey reference by the way. the lead shielding bit from radiation especially made me laugh.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/13/2007 8:43 AM
The thing about fantasy is that except at high level play (and I mean very high level, with the totally out there lists) most list builds you go for will be useful and pretty good.

I had a dream last night that I saw the new ork codex and everything in it was wonderful. Considering the amount of other crap going on in my life right now, that is worrying and amazing.

I don't buy into the idea that you need to dumb a game down to appeal to twelve year olds though, I started playing aged twelve and I never thought it was that difficult. D'n'D has plenty of very complicated rules, and 12 year olds grasp that just fine.

Wel  after my trip to Six Flag's water park I'm surprised I have had any nightmares about beached whales...

The game is not that complex now.  My (then 10) year old worked up some vicious lists, and understood the game. Then he added rules to make it harder.  12 year olds have a far greater grasp of complexity than we give them credit for.

But then again he would never have whined about not knowing what a powerfist looked like...