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Posted By jfrazell on 05/14/2007 4:37 AM
The game is not that complex now.  My (then 10) year old worked up some vicious lists, and understood the game. Then he added rules to make it harder.  12 year olds have a far greater grasp of complexity than we give them credit for.

Yes, but then again your 10 year old probably has the capacity for symbolic thought.  Poor little Jervis... so sad... so sad...

Posted By Phryxis on 05/12/2007 10:21 PM


Time for Advanced 40K? Or is that just Fantasy?

Honestly, I'd go Fantasy this second if the damn armies weren't so huge. I don't want to paint 120 models when I know I won't be able to build a decent list my first (or tenth) try.

Flames of War, my Brotha.    Best of all worlds:

1.  WW2

2.  tight rules

3.  Complex enought to challenge tactical thinkers, yet simple enough to pick up quickly

4.  15mm paints up soooooooo fast.

I think their grasp of complexity and rules tend to be fine, their real issues tend to be with understanding the value of a ruleset, sticking to it, etc. etc.

The best example I can think of isn't 40K, but whatever... When I used to play paintball, there were a bunch of Puerto Rican guys who liked to play at an abandoned cement factory. They didn't really know much about paintball, so they decided that rules would be that you weren't out until you got shot so much that it hurt so much that you gave up. The whole "one hit and you're out" seemed too limiting to them, I guess. So, first game, I light a guy up while he's running through the open, he falls over with his "groin" towards me. He's yelling "I don't give up." So I unloaded a full hopper of about 160 balls into his... Balls... And he didn't give up. So I gave up and walked off the field. I never went back, but I heard, a few months later, they'd realized that getting shot 200 times in the balls isn't really fun, or the point of paintball, and they'd started using referees, one hit and you're out, etc.

The same thing goes for kids. They learn the concepts just fine. The problem is that they need to get through the phase where they say "ok, so if a Predator is 120 points, and has one autocannon, then let's use one that's 1300 points and has A HUNDRED AUTOCANNON!" No, let's not. "If grots are 3 points each, let's each proxy all our models as grots and have a 300 on 300 grot battle!" No, again, let's not.

Long story short, they don't need simple rules. If they need anything, it's somebody to help them understand how to have fun with the rules.

Well, when I was twelve, we uh, figured that out pretty easily too.
Seriously, don't short change kids. They're plenty smart. I look at the writing style in codices and white dwarves these days and think "Really? Is this really what appealing to younger gamers means to you? Writing down to their level instead of encouraging them to read up?"

300 on 300 grots!?! That would be so much fun!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Phryxis on 05/14/2007 8:07 AM
I never went back, but I heard, a few months later, they'd realized that getting shot 200 times in the balls isn't really fun, or the point of paintball, and they'd started using referees, one hit and you're out, etc.

Isn't natural selection beautiful?

DBM has very simple rules and lists. Does that mean it is for kids?

I would almost say the same with FoW. In an odd way FoW seems to be more like old 40k, with WWII stuff. But it is also a little too simplistic for my WWII tastes. I always enjoyed overcomplicated WWII games.

I think when you write lists (chaos) that confuse most adults, then you have an issue. I don't know how many armoury arguments I have had since it's inception, and it never stopped. They pretty much stopped those arguments.

The SOB haven't been all that competitive since the inception of their lists. They are a fun army, but can't stand toe to toe with a lot of other armies. I really loved the theory of the newest list, but in application it sucks. SO many useless units and options...

Kids can understand things, application it a lot different. Very different viewpoints. Blood on every weapon...

Posted By Toreador on 05/14/2007 10:20 AMI think when you write lists (chaos) that confuse most adults, then you have an issue. I don't know how many armoury arguments I have had since it's inception, and it never stopped. They pretty much stopped those arguments.

The problem is not having an armory.  The problem is that GW has had 3 different stealth reprints and keep on changing thier mind about what counts where in the Chaos Codex.

Even the dex without the layout could be confusing.

With different points values for the same thing in different places? with changes in the rulebook that eliminate (probably unintentionally, but still without an FAQ) restrictions on some heinous combinations? With (as said above) three stealth reprints? Agreed, all of those things are confusing. However, it has nothing to do with the armory.

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/14/2007 9:40 AM
300 on 300 grots!?! That would be so much fun!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I once played a 150 on 150 grot battle royale, we eventually just started bombarding them with Lobba and Zzap gun fire.

grot on grot action. I hear that such debased and tawdry gatherings are banned in most parts of the imperial held territories. But cock fighting is ok...