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1. You need to enforce them everywhere-unless you specifically grant the site permission of course, which obviates the argument.

2. Eliminating the basket's purpose is strictly to elimnate convenience. They did it to other internet providers and are doing it to bits.

As to supporting FLGS, thats arguemnt can't be supported. BWBITS provides a service neither GW nor the FLGS provided.

Posted By stonefox on 06/20/2007 6:33 AM

I've spent ~$40 on BWBits and I live in VA anyway. The 5% is nothing when you get $20 devilfish hulls or $12 for a squad of 3 stealth suits (when he first released them anyway).

A friend of mine did the same thing. He now has a Devilfish hull for every Hammerhead turret he owns (and he has all the FW ones as well), plus all his Skyrays. He doesn't need to swap them around. He still has 9 Devilfish on top of that.

I myself ordered 13 Leman Russes to finish my Armoured Batallion as soon as they became availalbe, and a whole stack of Tyranid Warrior Scything talons - much cheaper than buying a box. The Russes were a complete steal. Almost half price compared to what we get them for here.

All thanks to BWB bitz. No thanks to GW.

BYE

Posted By jfrazell on 06/20/2007 7:07 AM
1. You need to enforce them everywhere-unless you specifically grant the site permission of course, which obviates the argument.

2. Eliminating the basket's purpose is strictly to elimnate convenience. They did it to other internet providers and are doing it to bits.

As to supporting FLGS, thats arguemnt can't be supported. BWBITS provides a service neither GW nor the FLGS provided.

I understand why they enforce IP. If they didn't they risk having things become generic terms, something that the iPod could face in the not-to-distant future. I mean if I released a soft drink and called it Coca-Cola, and a friend of mine did the same thing, and Coke did nothing about it, it could become a generic term for Cola, and everything would become Coca-Cola. That is, I admit, a gross simplification, but you get the idea.

But with BWB, as you said, GW never offered a service like them, not even close to them. GW only did it because BWB is popular and easy to use. No other reason. The enforcing their IP thing is part of it, but that's easy enough to do by removing images and things like that. They stepped over the line just to annoy their 'competition'... even though in order to 'compete' with GW, they first have to buy GW products.

I guess GW doesn't really understand how retail works. You don't have to compete with people who are selling your own products, let alone people who have already given you the money in order to stock said products.

BYE

Again you don't have to defend your IP if you give specific permission for its use.

The purpose of IP law is to protect the economic and creative investment that a company shells out to manufacture a sucessful product from folks who want to steal the idea, profit from it and make no substantial investment. Think, pirated software and DVD's from foreign countries.

What GW is doing has nothing to do with the purpose of IP law. They are using IP law as a club to limit internet retailing....

"Oh, you want to use this picture of  GW product? Sure, as long as you sign THIS contract that states you can if you have a B&M store, never show our products on the web, and don't use a net shopping cart. You don't like that? What, it frustrates the very purpose of what you are doing? Fine, either we won't sell to you or we will sue you for illegally using the image of our copyrighted image. Have a nice day."

The basic assumption that GW is laboring under is that the net retailers are hurting business. Well, several years after the assault on the net retailers and GW is doing worse than ever. This is a prime example of a  failed businesss strategy that GW just can't get beyond. All very corporate culture-ish.

Best of luck to BWBits. You guys rock.

ender502

 

 

Posted By ender502 on 06/20/2007 7:34 AM

The basic assumption that GW is laboring under is that the net retailers are hurting business. Well, several years after the assault on the net retailers and GW is doing worse than ever. This is a prime example of a  failed businesss strategy that GW just can't get beyond. All very corporate culture-ish.

It's kind of complicated, when you think about it.  They need to keep their shareholders happy, but how do you grow when you're the hugely dominant player in a niche industry?  They need good old-fashioned organic growth.   

But how do you do that?  Do you try to steer people to GW stores and FLGS where the game(s) are actually played and demonstrated to those who might not already be wargamers (i.e. where all the growth potential is)?  Or do you embrace Internet sales knowing they're mostly selling to existing customers and aren't spreading the hobby to the unwashed masses?

What I keep coming back to is that it's unrealistic for GW to be a public company in the first place.  Trying to take on the Sonys and Microsofts is just butting your head against a wall.  IMO, they need to do the 12-step thing and accept the reality of their situation, then build their business plan from there.

"Hi, my name is GW and I operate in a small niche industry."

i thought the whole reason for the internet sale ban was to help the "FLGS" compete on a "fair" playing field with the online stores. i dont know of any FLGS's that tear open boxes of plastic and sell them to the locals.

this action reveals the truth behind the ban, GW does not want your business !!!

I wonder if this means he has to shut down his eBay operation. Or did he do that already?

Posted By gorgon on 06/20/2007 8:23 AM

But how do you do that?  Do you try to steer people to GW stores and FLGS where the game(s) are actually played and demonstrated to those who might not already be wargamers (i.e. where all the growth potential is)?  Or do you embrace Internet sales knowing they're mostly selling to existing customers and aren't spreading the hobby to the unwashed masses?

Were internet sales only or primarly to existing customers? I wont go so far as to say that. The real problem with all of the GW "let's promote things that bring in new customer" nonsense is that it has not worked. Instead of accepting that GW has decided to just ignore stagnant growth and a shrinking market share.

They do need a strategy to bring in new customers or, at least, to remove some of the barriers to new players; high cost and poorly written rules.

People are willing to pay a premium for a quality product but GW is becoming the Chevy to WArMachine's Toyota and FOW's Hyundai.

I agree on the issue of GW being a public company.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 06/20/2007 11:02 AM

Were internet sales only or primarly to existing customers? I wont go so far as to say that. The real problem with all of the GW "let's promote things that bring in new customer" nonsense is that it has not worked. Instead of accepting that GW has decided to just ignore stagnant growth and a shrinking market share.

They do need a strategy to bring in new customers or, at least, to remove some of the barriers to new players; high cost and poorly written rules.

How did you learn to play?  Did you buy the game sight unseen from an online store or did someone introduce you to it at a GW store, FLGS or in their game room/basement? 

Selling GW games isn't like selling clock radios.  People have to be introduced to the product, and probably more than once since the real cost of entry (i.e. more than a Macragge set) is a little higher.  So if GW is facing intense pressure to grow their business because they're public, they need to introduce more people to the game.  That's why they've put GW stores all over in mall locations...trying to introduce little Billy wandering through the mall, who might otherwise spend his (parents') cash on console games. 

Their situation analysis doesn't seem all that bad when you look at it that way.  It's just built on a faulty premise -- that they can really operate long term as a public company in a small niche market.  Not the worst house, but built on a bad foundation, I suppose.  And it's not that they haven't made some tactical errors along the way too...they could have done more to keep the Privateers, etc. out of the FLGS, IMO. 

IMO, the "quality of rules" argument is really just board fodder for the Dakkas of the world. Loose as they are, the rules are still tight enough for the majority of the customer base, who don't play competitively or at a high level.  I'd argue that quality of miniatures, background/fluff/theme/atmosphere, and cost of entry are vastly more important in attracting players.   

Posted By gorgon on 06/20/2007 12:00 PM

How did you learn to play?  Did you buy the game sight unseen from an online store or did someone introduce you to it at a GW store, FLGS or in their game room/basement? 

Selling GW games isn't like selling clock radios.  People have to be introduced to the product, and probably more than once since the real cost of entry (i.e. more than a Macragge set) is a little higher.  So if GW is facing intense pressure to grow their business because they're public, they need to introduce more people to the game.  That's why they've put GW stores all over in mall locations...trying to introduce little Billy wandering through the mall, who might otherwise spend his (parents') cash on console games. 

Their situation analysis doesn't seem all that bad when you look at it that way.  It's just built on a faulty premise -- that they can really operate long term as a public company in a small niche market.  Not the worst house, but built on a bad foundation, I suppose.  And it's not that they haven't made some tactical errors along the way too...they could have done more to keep the Privateers, etc. out of the FLGS, IMO. 

IMO, the "quality of rules" argument is really just board fodder for the Dakkas of the world. Loose as they are, the rules are still tight enough for the majority of the customer base, who don't play competitively or at a high level.  I'd argue that quality of miniatures, background/fluff/theme/atmosphere, and cost of entry are vastly more important in attracting players.   

Strangely enough... I did start buying GW stuff "sight/game" unseen from a B&M store so small they couldn't do demo games (Eldar war walker in a blister  from The Complete Strategist in NYC).

I agree with your arguement as to the pressure of being a public company. They are forced to expand or suffer the trepidation of stock holders and potential purchasers.

I think you underestimate the rules  issue... If enough people on the net scream the 40k rules suck... that will eventually creep into the real world. It then allows 40k to be  abaseline for "bad" rules and other companies become "good" by the expedient of not being GW.

That being said, I think cost is still the most important barrier to introducing people to the game. The price for a marine tac squad, when you consider game points cost, has more than doubled since second edition.

As for the GW shops... yeah, alot of cost to GW without a lot of bang. If the strategy worked then we would see those results. They haven't. Why even absorb the cost of their own retail stores when simply supporting the B&M stores would  have cost so much less. Then just add stores where you see a geographic need rather than compete with existing store? (A funny side story: GW was sued and lost in England for breach of contract and anti-competitive practices for the placement of their retail stores).

GW is trying to maximize profit. Nothing wrong with that. They are just not doing a very good job at it.... While greed is encouraged in business, incompetance is not. Nor is it forgiven.

ender502

Posted By Breotan on 06/20/2007 9:04 AM
I wonder if this means he has to shut down his eBay operation. Or did he do that already?

We are not shutting down anything, just making a few changes.  Regardless the first change, box sets is in two weeks, and the second is by the end of the summer.

No biggie really we're just giving y'all some advanced notice.

Posted By gorgon on 06/20/2007 8:23 AM

"Hi, my name is GW and I operate in a small niche industry."

What defines a niche? Number of players? But there are dozens of thousands of Warhammer players worldwide, and perhaps even more. GW handles millions of pounds each year, has hundreds of employees, a worldwide retail network, factories... The market is so wide and so dynamic that plenty of new companies arrive in the area and flourishes. Count related industries (painting services, BW bits, eBay stores, licensed video games, books...) and you have a huge market - way bigger than the niche market syndrome.

Perhaps it was true twenty years ago, but it isn't anymore today.

I don't buy this "niche" concept. To me it's a lame excuse to underplay the gaming community and bend the rules at will ("I don't like ripping you off, but you know, we are in a small niche industry..." ) something that could not be done if GW was perceived as the mass market manufacturer it has become.

The days of the group of friend creating a game in their garage are long gone - along with the sympathy this mental picture brings to us.

Posted By Polonius on 06/20/2007 6:47 AM
One thing to remember about IP law is that to enforce your copywrites anywhere, you generally need to enforce them everywhere.

Huh?

But they don't enforce this everywhere. This whole silly situation is a US-only thing. The rest of the world still sells through online carts with pictures of the product. 

Posted By insaniak on 06/20/2007 2:26 PM

Posted By Polonius on 06/20/2007 6:47 AM
One thing to remember about IP law is that to enforce your copywrites anywhere, you generally need to enforce them everywhere.

Huh?

But they don't enforce this everywhere. This whole silly situation is a US-only thing. The rest of the world still sells through online carts with pictures of the product. 

I don't know anything specific, but I know that in general US Copywrite law is pretty friendly to IP holders.  It gives them a lot of power to enforce stuff (as a lot of fan sites have noticed), but it also requires them to be a little more aggresive in that enforcement.  Of course, I could be way off base.

In my friends basement. We had no stores back then. One maybe half ass comic store had some models back then.




Before they ever had stores, they had people thatdid that. Veterans. Thats how I got in, thats how I got others in.

*shrug* They turned their back, mostly on the vets...they choose the stores. Hope it works for them....

Posted By ender502 on 06/20/2007 12:27 PM

 (A funny side story: GW was sued and lost in England for breach of contract and anti-competitive practices for the placement of their retail stores).

Could you provide a source, please?

Posted By Kotrin on 06/20/2007 1:47 PM

What defines a niche? Number of players? But there are dozens of thousands of Warhammer players worldwide, and perhaps even more. GW handles millions of pounds each year, has hundreds of employees, a worldwide retail network, factories... The market is so wide and so dynamic that plenty of new companies arrive in the area and flourishes. Count related industries (painting services, BW bits, eBay stores, licensed video games, books...) and you have a huge market - way bigger than the niche market syndrome.

Perhaps it was true twenty years ago, but it isn't anymore today.

I don't buy this "niche" concept. To me it's a lame excuse to underplay the gaming community and bend the rules at will ("I don't like ripping you off, but you know, we are in a small niche industry..." ) something that could not be done if GW was perceived as the mass market manufacturer it has become.

 

Please...miniatures wargaming is hardly a mass market hobby.  The miniatures wargaming market may have grown some in the past twenty years, but GW don't and never will have the mass market appeal of say, console gaming. 

But those are the companies that GW needs to take on.  They already dominate the wargaming marketplace, so they have lift the *entire* marketplace to keep growing. Good luck with that. 

You mention their factories, stores, employees, etc...in a way, that's actually what's kinda killing them right now, rather than being a sign of their strength.

 

Posted By carmachu on 06/20/2007 3:43 PM
Before they ever had stores, they had people thatdid that. Veterans. Thats how I got in, thats how I got others in.

Same here.

GW need to stop treating the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> like the <st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>, they can NEVER get a store in every city and major town in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> like they can in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>. GW is staffed up and down the company by control freaks; I think they need to loosen up a little in some areas. I think that GW's way forward in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> market is Franchising, and not using independent stores merely as market research for where to put a GW store.

Amen. I'v been saying the same thing for years. The US is just too huge. Hell, even one or 3 stores in a major city isnt enough.

if you want to open up this market again, they will haveto allow online sales sooner or later. With a cart(I dont consider emailing or phoning online sales. Nor do I consider GW online pressence at inflated shipping cost).

I can get any other competetor in my fuzzy slippers looking at nice pictures. Why would I again want more barriers between me and gaming stuff? Hey if you dont want my money....

GW puts the agreement out when you go direct with them, its a choice thing.

So to say that 'it isn't fair' wouldn't exactly be right because it was all voluntary.  It isn't illegal to sell things online, but by getting stuff direct from GW, you have an agreement that they will supply you as long as you follow their rules.  Thats just the difference.







What if there is something but prospectively say...    something new is coming - from somewhere else.



Yes.

Posted By gorgon on 06/20/2007 4:06 PM

Please...miniatures wargaming is hardly a mass market hobby.  The miniatures wargaming market may have grown some in the past twenty years, but GW don't and never will have the mass market appeal of say, console gaming.

So, for you console gaming defines the entry-level in mass market?

my Ork lootas have tons of bits of SM, eldar, etc. all from ebay......

quick give lando a colt 45!

The best thing about the new white dwarf is, We're in it! 

BWBits  FTW

Posted By Kotrin on 06/21/2007 12:27 AM

Posted By gorgon on 06/20/2007 4:06 PM

Please...miniatures wargaming is hardly a mass market hobby.  The miniatures wargaming market may have grown some in the past twenty years, but GW don't and never will have the mass market appeal of say, console gaming.

So, for you console gaming defines the entry-level in mass market?

Console gaming defines the type of competitors they're facing.  Because Privateer and the rest are barely a pimple on GW's butt. 

GW is really big...in their little niche industry.  They're morbidly obese, really.  But I can't see how they're going to put up double-digit growth numbers every year by gouging existing customers.   Acquisitions are semi-pointless...if they buy little shops like Privateer, they just get back some market share that Privateer stole from them in the first place.   That means if they're to grow long-term, they have to steal entertainment dollars from elsewhere.  And those competitors are much bigger and more able.  Again, good luck with that.

Take all that shareholder pressure off them and they might be a nice profitable company.  But being public might be forcing them to pick fights they can't win.