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I'd use a sorceror with an ablative unit of raptors. They are a lot cheaper now and fulfill the role of obligatory counter-assault for the Obliterator/Tkson list. You can get about 8 with PF champ for 200 points. Add another ~35 points for Mark of Tzeentch if you want an invulnerable save on 'em.

Effective range of the power is 36" with wings. That's plenty long enough

I love these arguments about how not powerful something is, because you can devote all your attention to taking it out. Sure, if you REALLY want to go after one model, you can get it. But you can put Fzorgle on TWO models, both relatively cheap, plenty fast, plenty tough. And yeah, again, you can probably go get them. And while you're breaking your back to hunt down 270 points worth of his models, he's kicking the crap out of you.

I was thinking about taking my Thousand Sons to the Baltimore GT, but the Lash is making me think twice.

#1. Everyone will be taking anti-psychic wargear to counter it. So every Imperial Army will have a Psychic Hood, every Eldar a Rune of Warding, and every Tyranid will take Shadow in the Warp. So now that the 1K Sons have to take psychic tests, they are in trouble.

#2. Does chaos have any anti-psychic wargear? It seems that 2 chaos armies fights will just be moving each other's units around. Move that sorcerer with the lash up and hide it behind a squad of bikes/raptors? Just move them closer so you can take out the sorcerer, or move the screening squad out of the way so you can take out the sorcerer by shooting.

Either way, I'll take the more conservative approach with this vague rule. In my mind, I can't think of GW actually thinking up this devious ability; it's simply to subtle for GW. This truly looks like another mistake they somehow did not figure out.

I simply won't give GW this much credit for actually designing a slick rule like this on purpose. Remember, most posters here seem to believe GW is dumbing the game down, so how could something like this fall into the category? I'm calling it as I see it; another vagary from GW.

No skin off my teeth really. I'll ask for a judging pre game and go from there. This way, there are no surprises.

In a parallel example (which doesn't apply to this rule, but which does set precedent), the tau JPJ rule originally lacked the words "up to" in the rule that allowed the JPJ model to move in the assault phase. A strict reading of the rule meant that models using JPJ in the assault phase had to move exactly 6", rather than up to 6". When the 4th edition rulebook was published, it added the words "up to."

I expect that the original JPJ rule and the BGB correction precedent will be followed in this case....at some point in the future, yet to be determined.

If the wording on this psychic power changes in any facets of power, I suspect only that it will change who moves the models (as in: chaos player nominates direction, owning player moves his models their full move in that direction.) I would be unsurprised to find that GW gave chaos this truly nasty psychic power to make up for the fact that chaos has no way of counteracting other psychic abilities.

Finally, in the spirit of the OP, it seems to me that the Lash would allow you to move an IC who was not attached to a squad. If so, you could move the IC to be the closest model and then shoot the bejesus out of it (perhaps getting rid of a psychic hood that way?). It occurred to me as I considered how to beat the local necron player, who is my nemesis.

I think that, even given the fact that this is an obviously powerful ability and even if it is vulnerable due to it's less than fantastic range, this ability is a sign that this is a step in the right direction for Games Workshop and 40K. This is the kind of power that is going to make the player using it think, and add some tactics to the list they build. There are a lot of different uses for the ability. However, as I said, it's only a STEP in the right direction. The fact that there is only one ability in the game that has this kind of subtle use to it just means that it became the most powerful thing in the game. They need every army to have a couple of different abilities of this nature in every codex, that means that there will be some variation, some difference in the lists. The whole game needs to stay on the same power level, every unit in every army so that the game doesn't stagnate. If the whole game were balanced, it wouldn't matter as much which army list you brought, instead it would matter more how your play skill went in the actual game.

But I don't have to devote 'my whole army', either you target the closest unit, or you are in assault range of my closest unit. (Most likely) All I have to do is assault to counter the Lash.

As soon as those raptors decide to counter assault, no more lash...

I really want to play against this, to see if I am wrong and get toasted....

My guess is, it will be fine with only one. With two it becomes problematic, if they can 'stack' their moves.... then cheese city.

As the previous poster mentions, at least this "broken" power actually makes the player think how they want to use it to max affect. It is definitely a step up from Siren Princes and IW in the previous book that pretty much played themselves.

I'm seriously considering starting a Emp Childrens (or slaaneshi renegades) army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You're certainly visualizing the limits of the power accurately, but they're not nearly as limiting as you're suggesting. Yes the attacks will have to come from the flanks, or will have to be supported if they're in the center. Even if we assume that the Fzorgle has to come from the flanks, are you going to win a game where your two widest units are getting killed every turn? Sure that's a bit optimistic for the Chaos side, but not by much.

The Chaos player can even make use of this power from the center by screening against countercharge with a solid unit like Death Guard, and putting the Fzorgle on a Sorceror. You can focus all your fire on the Sorceror's unit, but he doesn't have to be in LOS to your whole army. Don't forget, 2d6" is a good chunk of movement, and nothing says the target has to end up in the Fzorgler's LOS. He can push a valuable unit to a spot where other units (most likely Oblits) can blow it away.

Whatever is bringing the Fzorgle, its probably going to have 12" worth of movement. This means that anything within 36" of the Fzorgle models is at risk, and it makes it easy for the Chaos player to set up exactly the LOS he needs to do what he wants, without getting shot up in return.

All of this requires coordination. All of this requires caution and thought on the part of the Chaos player. It's certainly better than nothing that this power isn't totally brainless to use. But with some practice and with good strategy, a Chaos player can absolutely break the game with it. I'm sure you'll make short work of some chump who thinks it entitles him to automatic victories... But when you face off against the Ed Maule of Fzorgling, I think you'll join the "stomp on Gav Thorpe's crotch club" in a hurry.

There's a batrep up on Bolter and Chainsword with a couple of Fzorgle DPs.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=115718

Thanks for the link Mnemoch, it is pretty telling that even down 340 points, the Chaos list stomped all over that SAFH marine list w/epistolary. Blocking LOS, setting up charges, positioning models for LOS sniping. It's brutal.

Probably not. But in discussions like these, I often see people saying "it can do this, and this, and this..." But forgetting that it can't do them all at once. And forgetting that it was giving something up to be able to do it.

Examples:
"The DP can move a Dev squad back"
But then it will be in range of my assaulting units, and can be taken out.
"But it could be a sorcerer with a unit"
I can still assault the unit, with the sorcerer
"But it can push back your assault unit"
Yes, but then it can't move my dev squad.
It can do a lot, it can't do everything every turn.

2nd Example:
"For 125 points, it can move your units around"
But it can also be targetted and/or assaulted if it moves forward
"It can have a screening unit, like Plague Marines"
True, but now it goes from 125 to 355pts.

3rd example:
"It is too powerful to have a sorc that can move a unit."
Powerful, true, but how much more powerful than a sorc that can use 2 powers a turn? Some powers even if in CC.


Further, you don't need to kill the sorc and plague marines, a tarpit unit will work just fine. Some rippers, or guard, or whatever.


I realize it is powerful, and I think it was meant to be. I think they failed to realize some of the repercussions and combinations.... but I am still waiting to see how it pans out in actual play. People were treating like an 'I Win" button, and at least now folks are seeing that it will take some thought and coordination to be effective (or broken...)

I always accepted it would take some thought to use, everything does, but I'm flabbergasted as to how they thought it was a fair power for that points cost.
It will be insanely usefull against footslogging orks.

The oversimplification goes both ways. Are your assault units going to sit there all game guarding Dev squads? Fine, I'd consider that an even better outcome than having to go use Fzorgle directly. Your assault units are sitting back, terrified of what Fzorgle will do if they don't. Your assault units aren't assaulting. I win.

On top of that, where are your assault units setting up? Is there really going to be choice terrain for them to hide behind to counter-charge something with 24" range? Every game? On both sides of the table? If they do find such a wonderful spot, then great. Now they just become the first target to Fzorgle. Now they get to be the first recipient of a pie plate. Good luck killing a DP with your two surviving Assault Marines (or whatever else). You earned your Devs one more turn of shooting at the expense of 250 points worth of Assault Marines.



Nobody is saying it can. What we're saying is that because it can do a lot, it's easy to find something very good for it to do every turn.

There's not always going to be a Powerfist within 18" for a Farseer to Mind War. But there will ALWAYS be something within 24" that would be great to bunch up and pie plate, great to pull closer and assault, great to move out of LOS so it has to move back to do anything, great to move off an objective, great to move out of cover, etc. etc. etc.

Etc.



No, it remains 125 points. Are the Plague Marines not allowed to participate in the battle?

Put differently, if this makes Fzorgle go from 125 to 355 points, then why doesn't your use of a counter assault unit to protect your back row mean that your Devs go from 150 points to 400 points? Or whatever the cost of the assault unit is?

Do the accounting as you wish, but I'd say Plague Marines marching ahead of a Sorceror, laying down fire and taking a charge, while maybe not the best use of them in the world, is getting a whole lot more out of them than an Assault squad sitting back, hoping they can counter charge the Fzorgler, and not participating at all.

Think about it this way:  This power means that the Chaos player's opponent will make two EXTREMELY bad moves per ROUND.  In my experience one bad 6" move is often enough to lose a game played between two good players.  Now you're going to have to deal with making TWO EXTREMELY bad moves of 2D6" EVERY ROUND.

That's broken, bro.  By all means, kill the Fzorgler quickly, not-as-easy-as-it-sounds as that is.  You're still going to be at least two terrible moves deep into your imminent loss.

Congrats, Gav.  You managed to top the Ranger Disruption Table for sheer brokenness in a rule.  Please die now.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/15/2007 12:51 PM
As the previous poster mentions, at least this "broken" power actually makes the player think how they want to use it to max affect. It is definitely a step up from Siren Princes and IW in the previous book that pretty much played themselves.

I'm seriously considering starting a Emp Childrens (or slaaneshi renegades) army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

What's this?  Well, if you insist on abusing the new Chaos codex in this manner then GW may just decide you can't handle the responsibility of Chaos psychic powers and remove them entirely in the next incarnation of the codex.  For shame, Ozzy.  For shame.

I'd think large units of TKsons would be best for screening the sorcerors. Either they drive forward and unload out of a rhino first turn or they slowly march up the field with the sorcerors flying around just behind them taking shots at anything that shows its head. If the sorcerors have to get more aggressive, have a raptor unit or something out there that can jump with the sorceror to shield him. It's funny that it is a slaanesh power when it seems tailor made for Tzeentch. It helps alleviate the slowness of the TKsons and I can't wait to drag an assault unit into range of rapid-firing TKsons.

How about moving the DPs along with a defiler? After they use their lash, you can then use the Defiler's fleet move to move in front of the DPs and screen them. Even if you don't fleet in front, the enemy still has to take target priority checks, if the defiler is further forward than the DP. (not that anyone fails those)

phryxis, thanks for such well thought out posts.

Let me clarify a point though, my thought is that the assault unit isn't waiting... it is moving forward. To get to the Dev squad, you have to pass by the assault squad.

However, you make a good point, there are lots of good uses.... I was just pointing out that some of them are much less likely than others.
I was also considering the sorcerer as part of the Plague unit, it makes more sense for him to be nearby, but not attached.Hmmm... that puts things in a different light. Yeah, I can see that being a big problem.
I am pretty sure what it comes down to is my rejecting that it is an I WIN button, but agreeing that it is broken.

I am also looking at it as a Nid player. BY the time you are within 24" of one of my units, there are likely 3-6 that are within assault range of you. I realize not all armies operate that way.

I am intrigued to see how this plays out....

I guess you'd have to play it out to see how it all falls into place, but one thing stands: Either you're moving your assault models into CC as quickly and safely as you can, or you're not. If Fzorgle is making you move less safely, or less quickly, just by being on the table, it's already giving advantages to the Chaos player, and he hasn't even had to use it yet.



Right, exactly. The thing is, the ability to hide ICs from shooting just by being near a friendly unit is a very powerful thing, but often ignored because most ICs are pure CC units, so nobody looks for ways to set them up to sit and shoot. However, when the IC has a psychic power that's better than any shooting attack, suddenly that rule becomes very, very useful.



Yeah, it sorta surpise me even as I realized it.

I think what it comes down to is that when people want to say "Fzorgle isn't so bad, I'll just play smart and beat it" what they're forgetting is that Fzorgle LITERALLY makes Chaos' opponent play stupid. Chaos player makes his psychic test and you're playing stupid.



I agree 150%. This is not a power that any dolt can use to win the game. On the contrary, it will require careful thought and coordinated efforts to use well. The problem is that I assume good players will have all that. And if a player has all that, then Fzorgle is totally unbeatable.

Ultimately, in the hands of a poor player, this power won't do much. But in the hands of a skilled player, it's not just broken, it's beyond broken.

In that regard, perhaps it's a step forward for Gav. The Alaitoc Disruption Table required no thought whatsoever, you could just cripple an opposing force purely because you like elves in blue pants. At least Fzorgle requires some thinking, even if it's actually MORE broken than the previous title holder. And both we can thank Gav for.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/17/2007 2:28 AM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/15/2007 12:51 PM
As the previous poster mentions, at least this "broken" power actually makes the player think how they want to use it to max affect. It is definitely a step up from Siren Princes and IW in the previous book that pretty much played themselves.

I'm seriously considering starting a Emp Childrens (or slaaneshi renegades) army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

What's this?  Well, if you insist on abusing the new Chaos codex in this manner then GW may just decide you can't handle the responsibility of Chaos psychic powers and remove them entirely in the next incarnation of the codex.  For shame, Ozzy.  For shame.

Haha... yeah....  But really, I do enjoy powers like this.  They make you think real hard about how you want to punish your opponent.  Do I move them into RF/DoomSiren Range?  Do I move their heavy's behind a wood?  Do I bunch that assault unit up?  I have so many choices, I can't decide!  That's fun to me, reminds me of my Vampire Counts army for some reason (do I raise a new unit behind his, reinforce my zombies, etc), my Wood Elves too with TreeSinging.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/17/2007 4:59 PM
Haha... yeah....  But really, I do enjoy powers like this.

I know you do... give in to your anger and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete.  But remember - all those who gain power are afraid to lose it.  Even the fanbois.

When they nerf the hell out of Chaos in 5th ed I'm blaming you.

I think the next thing that is going to happen is this: I will buy an extra Daemon Prince, make a whole 'Lash' army.. spend lots of money on new chaos units that are perfect for a 'Lash' army... And then GW decides that the Lash is indeed to overpowered... and the change it ... Sign... I already bought a new Deamon Prince... Iam such a fool....

I dont understand why anyone would pick a socerer-Lash instead of a Deamon Prince....?
The Deamon Prince:

Kicks more ass in CC....more Ws, S, T, A.... etc.
Cannot be instant killed and it still needs a lot of shooting to get killed.
Its a scoring unit now
Can deepstrike
Takes down tanks

The DP can be picked out by fire much more easily. A Sorceror can be buried amongst other friendly models and thus made much harder to get at. The power of Fzorgle is such that it really doesn't need to be distracted with trying to get into CC, etc. etc. Just keep it shooting every turn, and you're more or less guaranteed a victory.

FWIW, I went to the FLGS today...

They were playing some sort of mega battle in which Tyranids were steaming towards shore in a Normandy landing sort of affair, attacking Guard and Marines. Methinks these guys will enjoy Apocalypse.

I happened to have a Carnifex box with me that I was about to purcahse. A guy that had been there last week, and had seen me getting another one last week asked if I was building one of those lists that's made up of all big bugs. I said yes. He said he heard about a guy that made one, and it was a ton of fun, but the guy lost, cause other armies just have so much firepower. I assured him that wouldn't be the case with the list I was going to make.

I then asked what everyone thought of the new Chaos Codex. They all said it wasn't out yet. I told them that there were enough reviews out, it might as well be. Then I described the Fzorgle to them, and they seemed confused. One Chaos player thought it was sweet, then sorta said "wait, huh?" when he realized what it really could do. The non-Chaos players seemed to think I was mistaken.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that there are people out there, apparently quite a few, who just want to play huge games, and haven't even bothered to notice that Godzilla exists, etc. etc. etc.

I think that we, as Dakka, should make it our personal responsibility to all build Chaos armies (preferrably off of eBay, or with proxied models from other companies), and spend our weekends ruining other gamer's experiences via repeated use of the Fzorgle.

Well, not really. Let them have their fun, more power to them.

But I really, really think we should exercise all of our connections (none of which are mine), whatever leverage we have, to get a published explanation by these morons as to how the hell they thought Fzorgle was workable. I read the self love in WD about this new Codex, and not one mention was made about why they thought it would be fun or "easy to understand" to put the single most broken power in the game into the codex.

Hmmm.. I know I will feel stupid after hearing the answer... what is WD?

That mag, white dwarf, where they promote lord of the rings (and I guess sometimes they do new 40k or fantasy armies).

coredump, in your opinion, what's better:

Demon Prince

Sorcerer

A socerer can be usefull when you shield him with other units. But then you can only use the lash as a defence to make sure that no CC units get close enough for you shooty units... If you want to use the Lash as soon as possible you could give your socerer a bike or jumppack... but when your in the open you get instant killed... Maybe in combination with sum infiltrating chosen it could work...(PLASMAGUNS!!!)

The combination of having 2 deamon Princes with wings.. makes them very flexible. You dont have to Lash your enemy units every turn.. When your Princes are in cover at the center of the board with the Take and Hold Mission. No enemy unit would come close. Thats about 300VP in your pocket... 1 Deamon Prince can be killed easily.. but two flying side by side... damn... Even when you assault a group of basic 8-10 genestealers you will win.

I was right, I feel stupid. I was trying to think of a website...



It may come down to play style. But my inclination is sorcerer. As an IC, (and not MC) it is much harder to target. You will need units that it can stand behind, but with wings/bike it can move behind different units as needed

I agree that the IC status gives the sorcerer a near invincible status.
Deamon princes are what? T5 or T6...screw It I look it up...ok, they are T5 with a 3+/5++ save.
They can't use the lash to full effect if they have to avoid incoming fire all the time. Sure It's nasty to get those things into your line and there is not much you can do, but all the dirty tricks lash of submission offers... you can't do them if you are stuck in HtH.

The sorcerer seem to be a nice addition to a shooty chaos army. If that is viable anymore.

Greets
Schepp himself

I just won a game against Tau with my Lash Sorcerer (I run him with mount of Slanesh). He pulled a unit towards close combat and did a last turn push away from an objective for the win.

I don't think a daemon prince would have lived long. I used alot of level 2 combats to block LoS to him after I used him.