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I think either option is going to work well.

If I had to pick one, I'd think Sorcerors would be best since they're easy to hide.

That said, one of each might be a good option. The Sorceror could work with the main body of the army, setting up their shooting or protecting them from assault, while a DP goes up one flank and serves up units for the main body to gun down.

I think the overall premise could be a shooty army, maybe 6 Oblits and a Vindicator, with some hard troops like Plague Marines or Thousand Sons to secure things. Maybe some counter assault as well, points permitting. Set up so that you've got your firebase mostly hidden from the table, but overlooking one nice corridor. Then just start collecting enemy units and shoving them into that killzone and blowing them away. Anything that comes in to assault, you counter. Maybe even give up the DP as a counter assault unit on turn 3 if things are going well otherwise.

Basically the idea is to gun down one enemy unit per turn. If your opponent isn't giving you a unit to gun down, use Fzorgle to get one. If your opponent tries to bring too many units to gun down, use Fzorgle to move the extras away and gun down what's left.

Another cute trick is that you get to do all your shooting in whatever order works. So you first Fzorgle out a unit... Then you start shooting. If you roll great and your first squad of Oblits smokes it, then great, Fzorgle another one in and keep shooting. If you roll badly, then you save your second Fzorgle to last to move a unit away from being able to shoot back.

The tactics are both straightforward and incredibly powerful. It takes some thinking, but with minimal planning I think it can't be beat.

The actual usefulness of Lash...?

Thats such a stupid question.

The real question is:

What is it NOT useful for?

A bit OT, but isn't the average roll on Shadows of the warp (Tyranid power) 10.5?
So a Chaos sorcerer should fail his psychic test most of the time...or am I a bit confused here?

Just a thought about canceling it out. (or was this the other thread... )

Greets
Schepp himself

ehhh no I dont think so... You roll 3 D6 and discount the lowes roll... two out of tree dices needs to be a 5 and a 6 or 2x6 as a result to fail a psychic test... So I dont think that a sococrer with leadership 10 would fail that often..

Posted By skyth on 08/19/2007 1:34 PM
I just won a game against Tau with my Lash Sorcerer (I run him with mount of Slanesh). He pulled a unit towards close combat and did a last turn push away from an objective for the win.

I don't think a daemon prince would have lived long. I used alot of level 2 combats to block LoS to him after I used him.

How did your opponent respond to the Lash?  Was he pissed, frustrated, ok with it, etc?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By shogun on 08/20/2007 6:31 AM

ehhh no I dont think so... You roll 3 D6 and discount the lowes roll... two out of tree dices needs to be a 5 and a 6 or 2x6 as a result to fail a psychic test... So I dont think that a sococrer with leadership 10 would fail that often..

10.5 is the average roll on 3d6 added together.  Since it’s impossible to actually roll a 10.5, what that just means is that you’re equally likely to roll 10- or 11+.  So it’s a dead-even 50/50 chance to pass a psychic test on LD 10 vs Runes of Warding.

 

Shadow in the Warp is roll three dice and drop the lowest, so, as noted, the chances of passing the test are better than if you add all three dice together.  When you roll two dice and add them together, the odds of failing on Ld10 are 1/12- there are three results over 10 out of 36 different outcomes for two dice.  With Shadow in the Warp added in it’s around 20%.  43 possible failing results out of 216 possible dice rolls.

Of course, if you get Psychic Scream in range as well, the odds get a lot worse for the caster.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/20/2007 9:05 AM

Posted By skyth on 08/19/2007 1:34 PM
I just won a game against Tau with my Lash Sorcerer (I run him with mount of Slanesh). He pulled a unit towards close combat and did a last turn push away from an objective for the win.

I don't think a daemon prince would have lived long. I used alot of level 2 combats to block LoS to him after I used him.

How did your opponent respond to the Lash?  Was he pissed, frustrated, ok with it, etc?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

He was cool with it.  Was a cool game.  Guy downstairs was using the 2 lash prince plus greater daemon list

Ok, is this the way it works?

24" range
Psychic test to cast on Ld 10
Unit makes Ld check or is moved 2d6 inches by the caster?

The part I am getting at is if it is a ld check for the unit, wouldn't they on average pass this? (except for orks and guard, but I see Space Marines and Eldar brought up a lot in this discussion)

Yes, I do think this power is extremely good, but almost all of the examples I see tend to work off the fact that the power works. How often are you going to throw the DP or sorc  in front of the dev squad if your chances of failing are fairly high?

Well Mannahin, if you add the 3 dice together, then yes you are correct. But if you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest, then you still have to roll a 556, 566 or 3 sixes to actually fail.

Well there are more combinations then that, but not 50%

Eldar and marines can possibly nullify it but just like the earlier example post Tau are at a extreme disadvantage if you can pull portions of thier army into CC.

No. There is no Ld check for the target unit - they are just moved, and then make a pinning check afterwards.

Posted By Toreador on 08/20/2007 12:54 PM
Ok, is this the way it works?

24" range
Psychic test to cast on Ld 10
Unit makes Ld check or is moved 2d6 inches by the caster?

The part I am getting at is if it is a ld check for the unit, wouldn't they on average pass this? (except for orks and guard, but I see Space Marines and Eldar brought up a lot in this discussion)

Yes, I do think this power is extremely good, but almost all of the examples I see tend to work off the fact that the power works. How often are you going to throw the DP or sorc  in front of the dev squad if your chances of failing are fairly high?

It doesn't work that way. It works like this.

24" Range
Psychic test ot cast on LD10
If pass the Psychic Test, move unit 2d6" no LD check required.

Very very ouch. The first version I heard was a Ld check on the unit, which would really power down that power.

As an automatic affect, that is just nasty!!!

The tank building foundries are going to be on overtime. Armoured company here I come

How many Deamon Princes, and sorcerers can be fielded in Apocalypse?

Haha! Nice call, Toreodor. By the look of things, in Apocolypse you can field as many Fzorgle Princes or Fzorglorcerers as you want.

(not that anybody is going take take infantry in Apocolypse, anyway)

That one unit of infantry, if it shows up, is sure going to be moved all over the place... just because!

I foresee dozens and dozens of obliterators on the table at once. 5 Eldrads casting fortune/guide on units of obliterators/devastators/baneblades? Apocalypse is going to be the silliest thing ever unless you have a real nice group of friends to play with. If you can get some serious players together though, I see some really cool campaigns coming out of Apocalypse.

I'm semi-curious to play around with the strategems, and see whether enough of them really can overcome a major point differential.

If someone was enough of an ass to bring more than two Fzorgle Princes in apocalypse, you can bet I am going to suggest allowing multiple Eldrads.

Neither of which are fun, unless your idea of fun is winning at all costs and being a complete prick while you do.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/19/2007 5:13 PM
I think either option is going to work well.

If I had to pick one, I'd think Sorcerors would be best since they're easy to hide.

Remember though, Chaos is less shooty now, at least outside of rapid-fire range.  Also remember that CC armies will win vs. shooty armies if they can get close enough to charge without getting shot up too much.  Fzorgle princes 1) block LOS to assualty units behind them just by being MCs, and 2) pulling units close enough to charge early will make it far easier to assualt early (which of course will also block LOS).  So I'd say that Sorcs are more versatile, but in a CC oriented army DPs are probably better.

Posted By Lemartes on 08/20/2007 1:12 PM
Eldar and marines can possibly nullify it but just like the earlier example post Tau are at a extreme disadvantage if you can pull portions of thier army into CC.

Except that most Tau armies are mechanized, and what dismounted troops there are (crisis suits) usually hide behind terrain most of the game.  Lash is very good, but will not do as much toward these types of armies.

Posted By whitedragon on 08/20/2007 1:08 PM

Well Mannahin, if you add the 3 dice together, then yes you are correct. But if you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest, then you still have to roll a 556, 566 or 3 sixes to actually fail.

Well there are more combinations then that, but not 50%

If I'm doing my math correctly, there are 38 of 216 combinations that will result in failing the roll.  That's about a 17.5% chance (compared to a 12.5% chance on 2 dice).

If people are going to be hiding their Fzorglorcerers behind units, then it looks like the IG will have to resort to assassins again to eliminate threats like that.

Capt K

In apocalypse, you can hide your Fzorglorcerers behind more Fzorglorcereres!

If you are facing that kind of cheese, then the only thing for you to do is field the horde of Culexus Assassins!!!!

It could get crazy fast.....

Luckily we have a nice gaming group.

If you're going to bring out the Culexus assassins, make sure you also pack in a couple dozen Last Chancer sorcerors, for maximized AP 3 shooty goodness.

The suits in a Tau list will be vulnerable. Without move-shoot-move, Tau suits are massively overpriced and vulnerable. A Fzorgler can move 12", and needs LOS to only one suit to move the whole unit. They're big models, and not THAT easy to hide. Pull the unit into LOS, and anything AP3 will chop the models up.

Honestly, the way Tau suits like to hide on the edge of being in LOS, the way the suits are so fragile for their points... I think they're extremely vulnerable to Fzorgling.

Another combo that will really hurt power armor is to Fzorgle models into 1k Sons Rapid-Fire. It's amazing that they gave this army a volume of AP3 shooting, then gave it a power that says "no cover for you."

There's literally a thousand sparkling facets to how utterly stupid Fzorgle is. It almost makes me wonder if Thorpe wanted to prove to the world that he has total command of the 40K rules by writing the WORST POSSIBLE RULE EVER. The most broken, unstoppable, ironic rule ever.

Double Post

I wonder if yet again a misprint made it's way into the codex and now creates a horribly broken power. Most early rumours made it a ld check on the unit in question, which makes the power a lot less of a sure thing.

I can't see the power as it stands being what they meant. But, it wouldn't be the first time.

I would hope that it gets speedily errata'd, but previous experience does not make me hopeful.
Man 40K is a mess.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/17/2007 4:19 PM

In that regard, perhaps it's a step forward for Gav. The Alaitoc Disruption Table required no thought whatsoever, you could just cripple an opposing force purely because you like elves in blue pants. At least Fzorgle requires some thinking, even if it's actually MORE broken than the previous title holder. And both we can thank Gav for.

I don't think its as bad as the fox new's ranger table. I see lash being broken and game winning but, i don;t see it letting 1000 points of chaos beat 2000 of anything else 100% of the time. out of 30 games with my rangers 0 losses   10 of them were 1000 points vs 2000.

Between the ablity to drag 5 marines into range for 4 melta guns and 6 bolter shots, or  into rapid fire range of some 1kson, its going to be nasty. I think  one thing people might be over looking is the ablity to use it to just snipe vets,specials,and heavys out of a unit.  move the unit so they are the only thing in range or line of sight.

 

Posted By Toreador on 08/20/2007 3:57 PM
That one unit of infantry, if it shows up, is sure going to be moved all over the place... just because!

Fastest moving unit of infantry ever.