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Posted By Toreador on 09/29/2007 12:26 AM
 With everything else being good from them lately (in my eyes), this doesn't make much sense. So I will wait and see.

Coming from you, that is simply shocking!

Heh heh!

Anyway, I have to agree that there is NO way the "Daemon" Codex  will be Apocalypse only!

I will eat my non-existent hat if GW doesn't re-introduce power-specific daemons into 40k. If nothing else, leaving them out would be bad for sales of shiny plastic daemons. GW will want to make its new plastics as appealing to as many players as possible.

Mmm, non-existent hat...

Me, I like the idea of a massive Chaos Tome with WHFB/40k crossover. And I guarantee that some of the people *female dog*ing about the new book are the same people who *female dog* about how much worse GW as gotten since the glory days of Rogue Trader (sorry, Rouge Trader) when they used to do things like WHFB/40k crossovers. And are the same people who would *female dog* if GW released two separate books, one for 40k and one for WHFB.

Posted By Alpharius on 09/29/2007 8:41 AM

Posted By Toreador on 09/29/2007 12:26 AM
 With everything else being good from them lately (in my eyes), this doesn't make much sense. So I will wait and see.

Coming from you, that is simply shocking!

Heh heh!

Anyway, I have to agree that there is NO way the "Daemon" Codex  will be Apocalypse only!

It won't.

Allying Daemon Armies with Chaos Armies will be Apocalypse only in the same way as taking platoons of Imperial Guard with my Dark Angels is an Apocalypse thing.

One of the basic problems with a Daemon army book and a separate Codex:CSM, is that either:

A. the daemons from the Daemon Army are going to have the same rules as the daemons from C:CSM, and therefore totally suck; or

B. the daemons from the Daemon Army are going to have shiny new rules for the various different daemon types, and then you'll have at least 2 different sets of rules for bloodletters or horrors, causing all kinds of confusion. The exact same bloodletter model in one army is totally different from the same model in a different army (or the same army if they're allowed to ally together).

I would think that they'd want to make the daemons actually good so that people will want to buy the big new book and the new plastic models, but that leads to problems.

Sorry, but with the release of Apoc and all the new ork models, I am pretty darn happy.

I can see them doing it though. Stand alone book, and then in the future using it as allies for legion books. But even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Because then you would be allowing the Daemon book to ally with some lists, but not CSM? So if you make a mechanic why wouldn't you apply it to everything? It would be nice and interesting if you took them as allies ala Witch Hunters. So you can either take undivided daemons who take up no force org slots, or power specific that take up slots. Then in the future the power specific legion codex, they are integrated right in as they are the favored sons.

To not allow the use of them for C:SM would be a bad misstep and would really affect sales.

Might just end up that a lot of us play a mix of Apoc and regular rules for all of our games.

Posted By Toreador on 09/29/2007 1:39 PM
Sorry, but with the release of Apoc and all the new ork models, I am pretty darn happy.

I can see them doing it though. Stand alone book, and then in the future using it as allies for legion books. But even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Because then you would be allowing the Daemon book to ally with some lists, but not CSM? So if you make a mechanic why wouldn't you apply it to everything? It would be nice and interesting if you took them as allies ala Witch Hunters. So you can either take undivided daemons who take up no force org slots, or power specific that take up slots. Then in the future the power specific legion codex, they are integrated right in as they are the favored sons.

To not allow the use of them for C:SM would be a bad misstep and would really affect sales.

Might just end up that a lot of us play a mix of Apoc and regular rules for all of our games.

No need to be sorry!

A "Daemon" army makes more sense in WFB than it does in 40K.

So, I'd agree that NOT doing an integrated Daemon/Lost and the Damned/Chaos Marine list would be the very definition of "missed opportunity".

GW may be many things, but they don't often miss out on an opportunity to sell us more models!

Hmm, I am going to have to go out on a limb here. Just picked up the Chaos Codex today. The thing of note I found as I was reading was about the daemons. It never mentioned anything about undivided or not, or exactly about what those daemons were. Now what it does state that the daemons that the CSM can summon in are a lot less powerful. It almost makes it sound like the daemons summoned in may be those very same daemons we have been used to, but because their hold on reality is tenuous, they aren't near as powerful as when an incursion happens. An incursion may be what the new book is about. Those daemons in all their glory and power. I could see at that point that they wouldn't make an ally list. An incursion is an entirely different thing that what CSM normally deal with. So an incursion would be on it's own, or an Apoc ally. So things may match up to what rumours sound like.

I still think it would be a lost opportunity.

From what I've read at Warseer, I don't know if I would simply call this a Daemonic Codex.  Many, some in the know it seems, keep referring to it as the 'Ruinous Powers' which would include the legions as well.  Couple that with the God specific terminator 3 ups floating around...it is a possibility.  Wouldn't take much, simply reprint the current stats of the legions from the Chaos dex, add a bit more flavor/rules/daemons and there it is.  It would also explain why the rumor of "no ally w/ the current Chaos dex" keeps floating around.

Toreador, fine for preventing CSMs from taking DLegion allies, but what about DLegion taking CSM allies? There would be no fluff justification for preventing that.

Without digging out my rules, what are the allies rules? Could it be done either way as long as they are allies? Is Apoc the only place they would co exist?

I would hope more legion stuff would be in the rules, but I am not going to count on it.

I think that when they say 'apocalypse only' they are referring to the Daemon Princes FoulSpawn, M'Katchen, Doombreed and the Slannesh one; not the actual lists itself... thou its just my theory...

Well if they dont include legion rules and or lost and damned rules, then this new codex is just a waste of paper in my opinion.  I will not buy it. 

I personally dont like playing with daemons of any sort and i know other players who feel the same way.  Seems like this is just another lost opportunity for GW to come out with a product people will actually like and buy.

I hope however i turn out to be wrong.

Man, you folks are really getting hung up on this "APOC only" rumble. On the Bell the concern is that C:RP is "not tournament legal," and I think that's a much more helpful way to look at it. "APOC only" is how CSM are able to take RP demons, with the lack of an allies system - and I've said it before, but there's no way the Nü GeeDub Design Team wants to pursue multi-book armies that involve allies and confusing things like that, so no allying in demons shouldn't be surprising. It is a missed opportunity though, I agree.

As to not tourney legal, that's gotta be because of an acknowledged lack of balancing that's going into this production. C:RP appears to be about fluff first, models second, rules a distant third. The point is to get crazy ideas and images into model form and on the table - from there, "fun" is the objective not "cut-throat competition." On the Bell there was some suggestion that C:RP is going to be heavily mission-based in regards to the demon armies, which should point towards the types of games GW intends them to be used in (i.e. not tournament or BBB ones, but most likely APOC-able).

I'm at a loss for how they'll shoehorn the Legions into this book too, particularly the Big Four. Without mixing elements of C:RP with C:CSM, I don't see it happening, unless Cult Terminators are part of the 40k demon list or something

- Salvage

Y'know, I just remembered something. A while back, there was a poster on Warseer who said there'd be an expansion next year that'd have rules for battles on daemonworlds. I haven't seen anyone else verify that, but I wonder if such rules will be in the new book and the poster had his signals crossed about it being a separate supplement?

I keep hearing this is not a codex, and just a book. Not sure what that means in the scheme of things. A book like Apoc?

Something has to be on the horizon for the Terminator Aspiring Champion Sprues. What will push out those as a release?

Yep, no ally rules. Was wondering if anything in the book.

So we are looking at this.

CSM
Ruinous Powers/ Daemon Legions
2-4 Legion Books?

Seems that would cover all bases if they did it that way. Everything but TLaTD, which get a list in Apoc.

Posted By Toreador on 10/01/2007 8:47 AM
I keep hearing this is not a codex, and just a book. Not sure what that means in the scheme of things. A book like Apoc?

Recall that fantasy has "army books" not codexes, so that might be part of the generic term for the RP book.

And given C:Black Templars, Cark Angels, and the eventual C:Blood Angels & C:Space Wolves, I think C:World Eaters / Empy's Kids / Death Guard / 1k Sons aren't out of the question.  Actually, I'd rather buy books for those tweaked CSM armies with loads of fluff and cool gear / units than I would the RP book.  But that tells more about what I'm interested in 40k Chaos for.

- Salvage

But based on the way codexes are now, we wouldn't get loads of cool gear.

That C or C:RP can't ally with/to C:CSM doesn't surprise me. If they do have the Ruinous Powers in the new codex, I would expect the only similarity is that you see Zerkers/Plague Marines/Noise Marines/Thousand Sons in both lists, but not the ability to ally back and forth.

I'd rather see GW put out a line of less-fluff/no-ally codeci that have solid rules and are relatively balanced than see them put out a nice fluffy set of rules that are horribly broken. Which it sounds like what they're trying to do. One way to limit the amount of broken combinations is to limit the number of combinations.

But I would like to see a LatD list come out.

Posted By gorgon on 10/01/2007 6:53 AM
Y'know, I just remembered something. A while back, there was a poster on Warseer who said there'd be an expansion next year that'd have rules for battles on daemonworlds. I haven't seen anyone else verify that, but I wonder if such rules will be in the new book and the poster had his signals crossed about it being a separate supplement?

WAYYYYYYY back in 2001 at GD Baltimore, I talked with Gav Thorpe about the then-upcoming CityFight rules, and he said that if that supplement did well, they'd make more to cover other unique types of battlefields.  The first one he mentioned were demonworlds, the second were space ships/hulks.  This thinking may very well be where this rumor came from.

I would rather see GW release some army lists that are "non-tournament legal" than focus exclusively on making "balanced" lists all of the time.

I suspect most players of said army lists would much rather have a balanced, tournament legal version of their chosen force, thank you very much!

If this is truly a daemon codex, as everything implies, then my question is how does the summoning mechanic work? Who in the list does the summoning, and what do the Greater Daemons possess to enter play? It wouldn't make sense that every game is played on a daemon world just because your opponent is playing the all daemon army. Or are they, in typical GW fashion, going to change the rules/mechanics for how something works, e.g. summoning....

]
I'd guess that is exactly what they are doing. CSM generic daemons are summoned in the way we all know, with their weak hold on reality being represented by the rathre weak stats.

The daemonic legions are something else, maybe a super large contingent of cultists/traitors spewed them forth. My guess is we may see cultists and maybe mutants with this dex but probably no CSM or IG/traitors. The daemons may or may not be summoned in and GD will probably possess some cultists/mutants. But that is pure guess work on my part, it may really be all daemons, all the time.

I'd guess they'd be handled much like in WFB - they are just there!

No need to be summoned, there is a warp incursion into the "real" world. Or maybe this battle takes place in the Maelstrom, the Eye of Terror, some other Daemon World location, Rackham HQ, etc.

So, they deploy as "normal".

"Normal" being whatever deployment rules are in the new Codex (i.e., maybe some deepstrike, infiltrate, etc.).

I suspect that the daemons will not be summoned. The daemonic legions in the old Realm of Chaos books fought in the Chaos Wastes (and within the Eye of Terror) where there was sufficient warp / realspace overlap that they could manifest without summoning and had a stronger grip on reality.

Think about it from an army perspective- if you had to summon the buggers you'd need someone there to do the summoning, and most of your army would be in reserve. They'd come in patch work and probably die piecemeal.
Deploying them at the start makes way more sense.Assume they've already been summoned, or whatever.
I think this codex/book is a collosal waste of time and resources which would be better devoted to other projects.
Daemon armies are a dumb idea.
Lost and the Damned are a much better one.

It really depends on what is in the book. Realms of Chaos and The Lost and the Damned were very very good books. If this is even near that it should be good just on fluff alone. We have really needed something like this for some time. They have really skimmed over one of the biggest concepts that both 40k and WHFB have had that is truly GW. Chaos and the Warp.

Let's wait and see what this book is really like before we get all glossy eyed or discount it wholly. We are so far at the fringes of this rumour already that we are just guessing at this point.

Posted By dietrich on 10/01/2007 9:46 AM
I'd rather see GW put out a line of less-fluff/no-ally codeci that have solid rules and are relatively balanced than see them put out a nice fluffy set of rules that are horribly broken.

GW will meet you halfway and put out a line of less-fluff/no-ally codeci that are horribly broken.  Hooray!

Posted By winterman on 10/01/2007 12:47 PM
My guess is we may see cultists and maybe mutants with this dex but probably no CSM or IG/traitors. The daemons may or may not be summoned in and GD will probably possess some cultists/mutants.

Doubt it.  I can't imagine the bean counters greenlighting plastic cultists/mutant models.  And we all know that no models = no rules.  My guess is that the WHFB and 40K armies will be identical in terms of models, the only difference being their rules.

Posted By Da Boss on 10/02/2007 1:06 PM
I think this codex/book is a collosal waste of time and resources which would be better devoted to other projects.
Daemon armies are a dumb idea.
Lost and the Damned are a much better one.

Ok Mr. Smartypants - if LatD are such a great idea then how come LatD models aren't flying off the shelves, hmm?  In fact total sales of the LatD product line over the past year have been... £0!!!

It's pretty obvious the bean counters are deciding what gets models/rules and what doesn't.  Unfortunately there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the decision-makers and the rules-writers.  For example: Armageddon codex gives Black Templars powerful rules → Black Templars become super popular → bean counters decree that Black Templars get their own codex → Graham McNeill writes Black Templars codex with more balanced rules → Graham McNeill gets canned.  So let's see: Chaos codex gives daemonbomb powerful rules → daemons become super popular → bean counters decree that daemons get their own codex → _____ writes daemon codex → _____ gets canned.

I hope Gav Thorpe writes the daemon codex.

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/01/2007 10:02 AM
I would rather see GW release some army lists that are "non-tournament legal" than focus exclusively on making "balanced" lists all of the time.

A few years ago Wizards of the Coast released a set of cards for Magic the Gathering called Unglued.  It was a humorous set and was "non-tournament legal."  The result was that if you tried to play a pick up game with them, your opponent would either roll their eyes at you or refuse to play with you.  It worked as a joke, but you could only use them with close friends.

I think if GW released non-legal armies the result would be even worse.  Why spend the hundreds of dollars to buy, and the hours it takes to build and paint an army if nobody will play with you?

I know I'll never make a list with anything but a straight codex ever again, and even then only if its a popular codex.