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Iorek,
You are a god among insects.

Do not believe Jester's lies about you. May you have all of the virgins and Reeses Cups you deserve.

Many thanks,
Chuck

I guess this pretty much puts the slammer on base I3 orks. FC is pretty pointless right now, and even if we do get the charge not one character model can go up against force weapon weilding characters and win (they would be lucky to get a simultanious kill). Even our nobs only get to I4 for one round. Orks have moved from HTH to shooty. That makes me sad. I already have a fun shooty army with Tau. Orks were supposed to replace my Chaos HTH army that got nerfed with the new chaos codex. Looks like the nob with PK is even more necessary than before. Sad. I'm not saying orks can't win, or can't be effective (time will tell and its not like they can get worse), its just not looking like they are going to be the type of army I was hoping that they would turn into.

sir i salute you

Posted By Jayden63 on 10/03/2007 11:40 AM
I guess this pretty much puts the slammer on base I3 orks. FC is pretty pointless right now, and even if we do get the charge not one character model can go up against force weapon weilding characters and win (they would be lucky to get a simultanious kill). Even our nobs only get to I4 for one round. Orks have moved from HTH to shooty. That makes me sad. I already have a fun shooty army with Tau. Orks were supposed to replace my Chaos HTH army that got nerfed with the new chaos codex. Looks like the nob with PK is even more necessary than before. Sad. I'm not saying orks can't win, or can't be effective (time will tell and its not like they can get worse), its just not looking like they are going to be the type of army I was hoping that they would turn into.

Furious Charge makes them strength 4, and they have WS 4, T 4, and A 2. At 6 points apeice, they are still going to turn most opponents into absolute paste when assaulting. But hey, I don't know your game plans; perhaps that one initiative 4 casualty when assaulting a six-man MEQ unit really throws a wrench in the works.

I already hate the Shokk Attack Gun for not haveing random rolls to see what the snotlings do.

Wait,... what? Didn't all our characters and nobz strike last because they had power klaws anyway? So what is the issue here? Do people just have to find something to scorn?

Statistically vs marines Orks on the charge do just about the same as they used to,.. except they are cheaper!

Posted By Dice Monkey on 10/03/2007 12:47 PM
I already hate the Shokk Attack Gun for not haveing random rolls to see what the snotlings do.

That was the best weapon effects table EVER!

Nothing pisses a 2d ed Tyranid player off more than filling his Carnifex full of snotlings. 

Shokk Attak Gun + Telescopic legs = fun, even when I got slaughtered 

-Jmz

Waaaagh!!

'Ere we go!
'Ere we go!
'Ere we go!

Amazing, I'm actually excited by something GW is doing.  It's a wonderful feeling.  Phil Kelly, you're my hero.  Gav, DiaF.

Looking through the list of weapons the thing that jumps out to me are that the only weapons better than strength 8 or with Ap1 are based on D6 rolls. Lets just say that I'm not looking foward to facing land raiders or monoliths.

Also I don't see why some people feel that there are all these weapons that are MEQ or better. The orks have 7 AP3 or better weapons; 3 are ordnance weapons, 2 are available only as heavy weapon batteries or possibly on the battlewagon, 1 is an assault 1 plasma weapon, and one is the basic heavy weapon. In other words the majority of your AP3 or better weapons are available only as heavy support choices, like almost every other army out there. The only ones that aren't limited to heavy supports are the rokkit launchas,kustom mega-blastas, and the shokk attack gun.

All that being said I'm really looking forward to this codex. It has a lot of strengths, some weaknesses, and has a completely different feel to it. Most importantly when I'm drawing up lists I have difficulty deciding what not to include. So far the only unit I'm not really sold on are the flashgitz. The other heavy support choices are too appealing.

Posted By Jmznudd on 10/03/2007 1:31 PM

Posted By Dice Monkey on 10/03/2007 12:47 PM
I already hate the Shokk Attack Gun for not haveing random rolls to see what the snotlings do.

That was the best weapon effects table EVER!

Nothing pisses a 2d ed Tyranid player off more than filling his Carnifex full of snotlings. 

Shokk Attak Gun + Telescopic legs = fun, even when I got slaughtered 

-Jmz

mine would always sit on a hill with a powerfield and Mega Armor dareing someone to shoot him.  The best kill I ever got was nailing Bjorn the Fell handed and haveing him walk down the space wolf line rolling 8 on the sustained fire dice and killing 5 wolf guard.  

 

I can only sigh about this list.  It is still generic crap compared to the mad cap shooty fun of the 2nd edition ork list.  Hell you don't even roll randomly to see what the Stormboyz do.

To Dice Monkey:

Actually, I heard that Stormboyz add a D6 to their Jump Move (so can still shoot, fleet...etc) and on a "1" one of them crashes and dies...the unit still Jumps 13", though.

Zoned

The glory days of 2ed rules are long gone -- even space marines were madcap back then (I remember holding half a Chaos army back with a lone sarge laying down a minefield of plasma grenade templates...).

But this Ork codex seems to capture some of the feel of 2ed Orks -- Weirdboyz are back, and their destruction is both unpredictable, useful, and potentially disruptive to both sides (whoops! I needed that squad that just deep-struck across the board...). They'll win in CC due to brutally large numbers of attacks and an unwillingness to die -- right on the money!

My only annoyance is that the Ork Shoota Squad is now better at run-n-gun than Marine scouts or Eldar Guardians or Dark Eldar Pirates or whatever. 18" with a 6" move, and putting out bolter-equivalent firepower? Sigh. It's a unit that can truly engage the enemy on exactly whatever terms THEY choose. My fluff sense twinges a little here. Maybe all rapidfire weapons should be 24" if standing still, 18" once on the move, or 12" twice whether standing still or moving. That would cure the cognitive dissonance.

Overall though --- WAAAAGH comin thru!

-Adso

God, would people at least consider that Orks have BS 2 with the shooters. Everyone thinks they replace Bolter and Shuriken Catapult, but only Orks can run around blindly firing there guns in the wind, sure they have a decent threat range, and they will roll lots of dice, but the big mobs everyone wants to run will rarely get everyone in range to the target(unless they are about to assault). If the Shoota was 12" range, it would have been useless.

Yep, what, 12 hits out of a squad of 20? Then you have to wound and save beyond that. Not a dire threat when attached to orks, but as a weapon compared against others it is quite good!

Posted By Zoned on 10/03/2007 2:09 PM
To Dice Monkey:

Actually, I heard that Stormboyz add a D6 to their Jump Move (so can still shoot, fleet...etc) and on a "1" one of them crashes and dies...the unit still Jumps 13", though.

Zoned

That is still meh, they used to do things like crash into the ground and blow up end up on the other side of the table or fly of into the sunset never to be seen again.  I know they want to simplify the rules but man I want to have some random fun that causes some havok not one blows up if you roll a one on a d6.

there still may be oodles of random effect tables to keep the old skool ork players happy - I wouldn't expect to see them on the summary page.

some of the weapons look very amusing, although we don't know their cost or unit restrictions yet, most of the whackier ones will probably only be available to a few units.

the looted wagon stats look suspiciously similar to a rhino - I suspect it may be to deliberately allow looted rhinos, and then looted-only upgrades will be available for increased armour and weapons etc, thus allowing looted approximate equivalents of other non-ork vehicles

Wait till you see the Shokk Attack Gun misfire table, then.

Personnaly, I'd rather play the game then spend 5-10 min seeing what wacky thing a unit does...special rules start to eat up some serious game time when every other unit has got a page of things to do. On the other hand, other people don't mind this style of game play, and dearly enjoy all these personal unit touches. To each his own. I think the new Ork book is a good compromise.

Zoned

Posted By Toreador on 10/03/2007 3:02 PM
Yep, what, 12 hits out of a squad of 20? Then you have to wound and save beyond that. Not a dire threat when attached to orks, but as a weapon compared against others it is quite good!

12? I wish.  BS 2 = 5 or 6 to hit = 33 precent chance to hit = roughly 6 or 7 on average out of 20.  If we do the math for a large squad: say 24ish shoota boyz make it into range some how.  Thats 48! shots.  16 hits on average. 8 wounds on average against space marines.  2 or 3 failed saves is what it averages out to.  Squad of 10 space marines.  20 shots rapid fire. 14ish average hits.  7 wounds against marine type toughness.  1 or 2 space marines dead with average rolls.  So to be one or 2 kills ahead of a 10 man space marine squad, you need 24 orks all in range.

Personally I like your average 12 hits out of 20 shots better.  Wanna trade dice? PLEEEEAAASSEEE

Orock, he wrote "squad of 20," meaning 20 boyz shooting, 40 shots, ~13 hits. Also, your example is flawed, since I highly doubt 10 Space Marines will get into rapid fire range of the boyz unscathed. Point for point, I will get 25 Orks for 10 Space Marines.

Turn 1
24.1" away. If Marines go first, can't shoot. So regardless, Orks move first. Can't do anything else.

18.1" Marines shoot. Individually, they have a 1/3 chance of killing an Ork. 10 shots = 3.3 Orks dead, so 22 Orks left.

Turn 2
Orks Move.

12.1" away.

Shootas: Can shoot! Orks have 1/18 chance of killing a Marine. 44 shots = 2 dead Marines (8 left.)

Marines shoot, but only have 8 shots. 8/3=2.7 dead, so 19 Orks left.

Turn 3.
Orks Move.

6.1" away now, so still can't assault.

Shootas: Get to shoot! 38/18 = 2 dead Marines (6 left.)

Marines have a choice. Assault, or Rapid Fire (Assume not DA, BA, or Chaos.) Rapid Fire is probably best option.

Vs Shootas: 6 models left, 12 shots = 4 dead, 15 Orks left. Had they assaulted instead, they would have gotten 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds.

I'll leave it at that. 15 Orks (45 attacks at S4) vs 6 Marines, not to mention 30 more shoota shots, will roll over those Marines no problem. Hmmmm. Maybe rapid-firing was the wrong option and the Marines should have assaulted instead. Also adds value to BA, DA, and Chaos (presuming you allow Assaulting after shooting with Pistols.)

The point is, Shootas can affect their enemy earlier on, and the volume of fire is considerable. They lose very little HTH ability, since they still get Furious Charge, and the old Choppas are gone. Shootas can still hide Nobz with Power Claws. But Shootas can also back away from threats and still affect them like Hormagaunts, Grey Knights...etc. Land Speeders can't get in Assault Cannon range without exposing themselves. Shoota Boyz can still take Big Shootas and Rokkits, but now their basic armament can make a difference too!

Zoned

Thats all well and good, but what if you dont want to run horde? 12 orks (happy to see the increase) in a trukk have a lot less massed shooting ability, and starting with a smaller mob means less sustained HTH if/when you get there. Its now the small squads that are going to suffer. I didn't like playing the green tide, I probably still wont.

But fewer point costs means potentially more trukkers so it might work itself out with a combined force sorta thing. Points costs need to be known. I just feel that there has been a real hit against HTH, but we will have to wait and see.

Turn 3, 6 marines: did they pass their morale test at +25% shooting casualties?

@Orock: HE said squad of 20 not 20 shots, but other wise you math is great. The big problem I see with all the math hammer is that if you cluster your boyz close enough that they can all get in range, you going to get punished by template weapons, and if you spread out you won't get all your boyz in range to shoot.

To Jayden: I think it's fair to say that the army was designed with Horde style in mind. Not that the army can't work Kult of Speed Style (12 boyz, trukk, and toyz will probably only run abot 150pts) but I'm pretty sure GW wrote it with foot sloggers in mind. IMHO, HTH is only compartively nerfed when you consider how gross the Shoota is. I mean, I woulda been happy with Assault 1, but Assault 2 is over the top. Realistically, 6 point Slugga Boyz are still dirty. 25 Slugga Boyz will still run over 10 Space Marines.

Zoned

Posted By Jayden63 on 10/03/2007 4:58 PM
Thats all well and good, but what if you dont want to run horde? 12 orks (happy to see the increase) in a trukk have a lot less massed shooting ability, and starting with a smaller mob means less sustained HTH if/when you get there. Its now the small squads that are going to suffer. I didn't like playing the green tide, I probably still wont.

But fewer point costs means potentially more trukkers so it might work itself out with a combined force sorta thing. Points costs need to be known. I just feel that there has been a real hit against HTH, but we will have to wait and see.

Don't forget that you have dirt cheap jump troopers.  While only S3, on the charge (and as jump troops they should get the charge) they have 4 attacks at WS4, S4.  They hit harder than Assault marines for half the cost. 

2-4 shoota mobs, 2+ trukkers, and a couple of storm boys squads are all doable, and provide lots of attacks, lots of claws, and suprising mobility.   throw in a some shooting from heavy support and elites, and you're looking at a decent army, at least better than anything possible now.

Yeah, I'm not hating on the codex as a whole. It seems like it has lots of potential. I just had an army play style in mind and its not looking too promising as of right now. Not all builds are created equal I guess.

So the deal with the new stormboyz is that they can use jump packs and then fleet?  I think that is too much.  On the whole it looks like the orks got a much needed boost and the h2h and shooty parts got balanced out a bit more.  I like that the basic boy is cheaper, and hope that it will make foot ork armies more viable.  One thing that I really hope comes out of this is a meta change that will break some of the nidzilla, mech armies.

*shudders with joy* My green tide of death is competitive again!

Where's Nazdreg? Not cool. Oh well- I'll just use the coolest rules for my model of 'Dreg.

Am I mistaken, or is GW speeding up their release rate?

Chaos just came out.

Apocalypse and Orks are both clearly done.

It sounds like they intend to string out the actual releases, but they've got three books ready to go, more or less at once.

What's the story?

A Phil Kelly authored Codex on the way, and an increased production rate? Are they trying to win back my heart after the debacle barrage that was Codex DA, Codex BA and the Lash of Submission?

Hell, I'm even somewhat please with the Chaos Codex, Lash aside.

GW, let it not be said that I don't give you guys a fair chance to impress.

I didn't mean to start the cheese debate or the balance of shootas debate -- just that assault 2, 18" range FEELS wrong, flavawise, compared to other weapons of the 40k Universe, and previous incarnations of Ork weapons. All this math-hammer needs to wait at least until we figure out the structure of the army and the viability of some of the support units.

-Adso

it's still BS2. so there is a very good chance all that math hammer will be for naought if you can't hit.