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Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

Posted By BrotherAdso on 10/03/2007 7:19 PM
I didn't mean to start the cheese debate or the balance of shootas debate -- just that assault 2, 18" range FEELS wrong, flavawise, compared to other weapons of the 40k Universe, and previous incarnations of Ork weapons. All this math-hammer needs to wait at least until we figure out the structure of the army and the viability of some of the support units.

-Adso


How do you figure that? Most every other Ork weapon was an Assault weapon with a shorter range than its counterpart in other armies.

Now Shootas fit into that same concept: They can be fired from the hip without penalty but can never fire at the same distance as rapid fire weapons from other races.

Really, if they were to have made Shootas Assault 1 they would have had to made them a 24" range which would have made the basic Ork boy into a semi-long range specialist compared to every other army (besides the Tau). The 18" range plus Assault 2 means that you still want to get fairly close to the enemy but you aren't completely compelled to get within range to be charged to do so.

 

 


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Going off the current rumours, here's the core of what I want to take:

30 Shoota Boyz w/ 3 Rokkits, Nob w/ PK...~245 x 4 = 980
20 StormBoyz w/ Nob w/ PK...~275

Total so far...1255pts...~140 models

Now for some dedicated "long" range tank killers (possibly Kannons or Zzap Guns, maybe two squads Tankbustas based on points...) Big Mek w/ KFF, Warboss on Bike w/PK to trouble shoot...mmmmm mmm good. Tournament standard around here is 1700pts...hopefully I can get all my toys.

Zoned
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

 

Assuming that the basic Slugga boy will be 6 points (and I don't see any reason to doubt that rumor now that all the rumored weapons stats turned out to be true) I really think they came up with an elegant way to balance trukk mounted armies vs. foot sloggers.

The big problem before was that the achillies heel of the Ork boy was his slow speed and his vulnerability to enemy fire. The KoS negated both these issues in 3rd edition which made the KoS a powerhouse army while footsloggers had to struggle to win anything.

4th edition partially nuetered the KoS with the introduction of Entanglement. Of course this really just made KoS games into an all-or-nothing proposition: If the KoS player had ample terrain and got the first turn he would be able to charge at will and destroy the enemy. If he didn't have these things his Trukks would get torched and all his units would waste a turn being entangled before getting shot to pieces.

By reducing the effectiveness of the basic Ork boy in this new codex but also reducing their points cost by a third (from 9 points to 6) means that basic footslogging mobs get to utilize the new strength of the Orks: numbers (plus they get the 'once a game' fleet move too).

Point for point the new Slugga boy (without a Choppa but with Furious Charge) is superior to the old Slugga boy. For example:

  • 10 Old Ork Slugga Boys (9 pts)  = 90 pts.
  • 15 New Slugga Boys (6 pts) = 90 pts. 
  • vs. 6 Space Marines (15 pts) = 90 pts.

6 Marines will cause an average of 1.25 failed saves against Orks in a round of combat.

The old Ork boy would get to swing simultaneously with the Marine at I4 so all 10 boys would get their full attacks on the charge. Even so, all 10 Orks would average 3.3 failed saves against the marines.

The new Orks don't strike simultaneously even when they charge, so on average they're going to lose either one or two models before they get to swing. Even with losing two models ahead of time, the new Orks still cause an average of 4.29 failed saves against the marines and 4.62 failed saves if the Orks only turn out to lose a single model before they swing. 

With both new and old Orks fighting in a round of combat where they didn't charge the marines would strike first so they will lose some models before striking. However since new and old Orks still die at the same rate (they have the same defensive statistics) the fact that you'll have so many more new Orks makes losing models before getting to swing less painful.

In a round of combat where neither the 6 marines or the 10 Old Slugga boyz charged, the Orks would cause an average of 2.23 failed saves against the marines assuming the Orks lost only a single model before it got to swing or 1.98 failed saves against the marines if the Orks lost two models.

The same scenarios with the new Orks (15 new sluggas vs. 6 marines), the Orks will cause an average of 2.29 failed saves against the marines if the Orks lose a single model before it swings or 2.13 failed saves against the marines if the Orks lose two models before they swing.

In other words, no matter how you look at it, the new Ork is better off in combat than the old Ork unless we're talking about fighting against 2+ save models. The flip side of this fact is that the new Orks are vastly better against non-MEQ armies like Tau and IG where the lack of a Choppa and I4 doesn't really affect anything (whereas the ability to field more Orks does have a huge impact against these armies).

 

But getting back to the KoS, the fact that the mob sizes are still limited by fitting into a Trukk means that the Trukkboy mob isn't able to tap into the core advantage of the new Ork statline: strength in numbers. Also small unit sizes means that each individual Trukkboy mob is much more affected by leadership issues than a big footslogging mob (which is fearless when numbering more than 10 models). Heck, we still don't even know if Trukkboy Nobs will be able to take the 'big horn' +1 Ld upgrade!

Of course, the reduced boyz points cost will mean you should be able to afford more Trukkboy units in your army and the rumored Trukk bailin' out rules means that games with Trukk heavy armies will be much, much less all-or-nothing.

All that means your individual Trukk boy mobs and boyz will be less effective but you should be able to reliably get more of them into combat in your average game.

To me that means that the KoS type army sounds more balanced and fun to play with and against and the footslogging Ork horde will be (as needed) much more effective than it previously was.

 

So is everything all sunshine and roses? I'd say no simply because tournament organziers continue to puch the upward limit of points values in their games without properly adjusting the time allotted to play the games. Ork horde players already struggle to finish their GT games and now they'll have even more Ork models to deploy and move. Even more dice to roll each shooting and assault phase. And the 'ard boyz tournaments have set a new ridiculous standard of 2,500 point games in 2 1/2 hours.

Of course, this isn't the fault of the games designer. I think the reduction in points cost of the basic boy is the perfect solution to many of the issues of the Ork codex. It is now up to tournament organizers to get it through their head that they need to lower the points values in their tournaments or allow more time for each game.

 

 


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






It is crap the way this edition has taken all the teeth from the assault armies.  Look at the nids, #1 example.  They used to be all about crossing that board and shoving there claws up your @$$.  Now what are they? Giant manly carnifexes relying on guns the size of gaunts.  Nids winnnig most of there points in competative play thru shooting? Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy?  The orks seem to be balanced around there new shooty gods as well.  Im sorry my memory may be hazy its been a few years, but were all the GT really dominated by footslogging ork  and nid assault armies?

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Posted By Orock on 10/03/2007 9:11 PM
It is crap the way this edition has taken all the teeth from the assault armies.  Look at the nids, #1 example.  They used to be all about crossing that board and shoving there claws up your @$$.  Now what are they? Giant manly carnifexes relying on guns the size of gaunts.  Nids winnnig most of there points in competative play thru shooting? Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy?  The orks seem to be balanced around there new shooty gods as well.  Im sorry my memory may be hazy its been a few years, but were all the GT really dominated by footslogging ork  and nid assault armies?

That's cause assaults are stupid powerful in this game.  That and much like in the real world, if you have to run up to someone far away to try and beat them over the head to kill them, and they've got a gun, you're going to lose 99% of the time. 

Look at it this way, Orks are still better off in assault than they are in shooting if you keep the Nob with the PK in all your mobs (which anyone playing Orks will do), it's just that your Boyz get to do a lot more damage on the way in now, and puts many enemies in a no-win situation where they'll lose the shootout and they'll lose the assault.  As opposed to just taking sluggas which means they'll always win the shootout and will avoid your units on foot as much as possible (which is to say, most of the time you play).

Course you can still take a lot of Trukk Mounted Sluggas, but even then your trukks can be stopped by one good shot, where as the horde of Boyz is probably the most durable thing in the army.





   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

DA GOOD

1. I like how Ork boyz are just boyz now, you can equip them as sluggas shoots mix them up etc. They didnt go far enough in my opinion. Thery should have had a tankbusta, burnaboy, flash git and loota as another elite ork rather than another squad. Withy elite boyz having a larger quota of elite orks than troops mobz. I hated how there were this ork that ork and the other ork, but they all looked the same and if the mobz mixed up it was too hard to tell which ork was in which mob.

2. The new loota models look nice, and the astats for ther gun are very orky. A unit firing with something closer to all or nothing firepower.

3. Nice to see some large templates. This will work half range battelcannon and equivialent. If cheap and more importantly 1-3per HS slot they will provide the real firepower an ork army leaves. Bs2, who cares take three battlecannon templates for an HS slot and you are laughing.

4. Grot killa kans. Back in Rogue trader ork dreads were piloted by grots. Favoured grots who were privileged to fight with the rest of the ladz as an honourary ork. I like how the rules now run. Bigga dreads for orkses, little kans for grots. Having Bs3 heavy weapons somewhere also helps, I am not too concerned about Ws2, if it cuts the price all the better. I am more than happy for anyone to think that the way to take down a mob of kans is in close combat.
DA BAD

1. As all the nice guns are in equal armed units, like with Eldar aspects warriors, expect to see your nasty stuff shot up before it gets to do anything. Especially as it usually needs at least a turns movement to get into combat range, more for burna boyz.
With mobbing up rules we will see tankbusts and loota remnanats joining with the rest of da ladz, so its not an entire loss. Though a smart opponent will concentrate fire to eliminatre your special boyz rather than just cause thm to run and hide in the nearest mob.

2. Contrary to first thoughts there is no new Ap3. Only in vehicle weapons. Ap D6 doesnt mean much, and if its roll once for the whole squad and you have termies you will want to target flash gitz early. See above. It also matters when you roll for Ap before or after target selection. So you might roll a 3 against the termies, but roll a 1 against scouts/guardsmen.

DA UGLY

1. Burna Boyz. I2 howling banshees with noarmour and a penchance for setting fire to things. GW should put burnas back where they wbelong, in the mobz.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
 
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