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tegeus-Cromis wrote:You're talking about the jet-tarch, but the main comparison Orlanth has been using is with the Autarch on foot.

I am a fan of jet-tarchs, but I don't think they fit well in the counter-charge role. They suffer from RR syndrome, i.e. protracted combat spells disaster for them. That doesn't stop RRs from being kickass counter-charge, but an RR unit is cheap and can afford to die to a man after they've done their job. The jet-tarch can't. Without Hit & Run to pull him out, one round of bad rolling means he's doomed.

Taking an autarch without a jetbike is like eating a jelly sandwich. You gotta be some kinda freak.

They fit fine in the counter charge role. They hit on 3+, go first, and wound on 2's. You need to choose it very carefully and it can't be your only counter-charger. Personally, I like the idea of two of them, but whatever

I'll pay 155 for a Bs5 jsj reaper launcher, with the opportunity to mop up squads late game and turn the tide in assaults you need help in. A jet-tarch is amazing at jumping into a harlie assault and mopping up.

Throw in the fact that you can take a small squad of shining spears to give him hit and run and he's awesome. By far the best HQ short of Eldrad or the generic guide/fortune farseer.

Phoenix Lords suffer from noinvsaveorjetbikitis, which manifests with severe stayinthebox.

Yet for as good as they are...

My Tyrant, My Demon Prince, and Maugan Ra will all kill your Autarch in close combat....where he doesn't hit on 3+, doesn't go first, and doesn't wound on 2's (well, he does on Maugan Ra, but he'll never swing vs Maugen Ra) so...

He's good against Marines and IG/Tau/Sisters...bad against everyone else?

I prefer HQ's good against every comer.

Not that I play space elfs, but if I did, my Autarch (who is much faster than all of the above) will ignore your characters and kill the squishy bits of your army while harlequins killed your characters with I7 rending attacks.

Lots of people seem to be under the impression that a character has to be good at killing other characters to be useful, but play against a Therion-style Eldar list a few times and that'll disabuse you of that notion pretty quickly.

Yes I know you've played and beaten everyone handily with your list already so I might as well be talking to myself here.

Thankfully, I don't have 'squishy' armies the Autarch can kill.

I've enjoyed playing the Harlequin armies. Someday, someone will show me how they 'crush' me when there's only 12-18 of them, they are outnumbered by my non-squishie troops, my HQ's are in the midst of my army so they WILL assault anything you send my way, and finally what makes you think I haven't played against said army type and not come out on top?

Last but not least, I've played and beaten alot of people with ALL of my lists. Not just one, or two, more like seven. I can only say this, it's not just the army that makes my army so good. It's the general running it.

Like I said I know you've played against every army and win without fail

Everything is squishy to a dude with 6 S6 power weapon attacks that hit on 3s (or 5 S6, I forget), if it don't got an invulnerable save.

Squad of harlies + Autarch will kill pretty much any squad in the game other than TKs in a turn (and for sure within two - other than huge squads they shouldn't be charging).

For an example of what I mean when I say Squishie, see your Noise marine squads from your Chaos army post, Obliterators, Devastator squads, anything that costs 20+ points a dude with no invulnerable save, and so on. Hell the autarch with a banshee mask is just fine charging into genestealers with some harlies backing him up.

I'll let someone with some first hand experience playing harlies and a lance autarch take it if it's going to go any further, but I'm going to go on record saying I think you're full of crap if you have 1500/1850pt lists that don't worry about 12 harlies and a lance autarch in your grill.

Stelek:

I can only say this, it's not just the army that makes my army so good. It's the general running it.

Has it occured to you that perhaps your no doubt extraordinary generalship serves to diminish, not enhance, the credibility of your claims? A mediocre unit may perform well in the hands of an excellent general. We are discussing the utility of units, not the excellence of generals, so it might be a good idea to leave out your stories of how unit X always owns everything in your hands and how unit Y is powerless to harm you and instead provide reasons and arguments for why this is the case.

I agree with quite a bit of what you've been saying in this thread, but your constant arguments-from-personal-uberness are getting tiring. A good argument should not need to derive its force from the listener knowing and believing in your win/loss record.

Well when I say why a unit sucks, I get someone telling me it doesn't really suck--it's just the generalship needs working on to 'make' the unit good.

It's quite tiresome.

You're right, lots of people like to apply the magic dust of "all you need is generalship!" in lieu of an actual argument. That doesn't make such tricks--and really, what you're doing is the same thing in a different form ("I own everyone with this unit, so I must be right!")--any less irrelevant to a discussion. If you find it so tiresome, why not avoid it yourself and save people like me (who do their utmost to avoid such cop-out tactics) a lot of undeserved annoyance, hm?

For amusement I put Maugan Ra in a squad of quins along with a death jester. It was a lot of fun having that many shots come out of a unit that my opponent couldn't realy do much about. The veil kept him from shooting them unless he got close and the close combat power of the squad kept anything from ever getting close. It was fun. Now, it didn't kill anywhere near its point value (well over 300) but is a gimic that might entertain you in a friendly game.

Stelek wrote:Well when I say why a unit sucks, I get someone telling me it doesn't really suck--it's just the generalship needs working on to 'make' the unit good.

It's quite tiresome.

And perhaps they do that because you tell them it sucks because you've played someone using it and you outplayed that person. Heck if I know who started it, but it's lame no matter who does it.

Units suck because they are lacking characteristics that allow them to perform, not because someone played them badly or well. Harlequins have lots of characteristics that make them successful (fast, hard-hitting, resilient in CC and shooting -- and relatively cheap) and a few that make them require care to use (they are fragile in certain circumstances). Unfortunately most players are morons and honestly very few people can be counted on to make even the most overpowered units (e.g. necron immortals) succeed. That you can probably tell by looking at your anecdotes - it doesn't matter what people bring, most people are easy to beat because they are stupid (not necessarily because of a list deficiency, although the combination really hurts).

Where are people getting the idea that you take an autarch for his close combat ability.

He is there to make sure your reserves appear much faster than the other guys, a huge advantage in any game with reserves as Eldar are fast enough to exploit their temporary numbers advantage before they lose it.

If you haven't given the Autarch a jetbike and proddy stick he gets a powersword for melee, simple as. For his number of attacks speed and skill he deserves something. However if you want close combat goodness you ought to look elsewhere. Scorpions/Banshees/Harlies, Avatar (admittedly with speed problems) and some Phoenix Lords - which leads me straight back where we started with Jain Zar.

Other than that one HQ slot should really be saved for a Farseer, which is very nice for his points and can do too much for your army to be left behind.

If you really want an Autarch, and there is no reason you shouldnt you should be thinking of what to arm him with to make additional use of him, rather than loking at the output first. Its a subtle difference. You already have him for what you need him for, those 70pts are already a good investment, the points tooling him up are largely wasted if you can do better with them elsewhere. so it may pay to keep him cheap rather than look at the close combat capability as primary concern.

This leads me back to the cheap and cheerful Reaper Autarch with power weapon, to be balanced aginst the potent but expensive and vulnerable Spear Autarch with mandiblasters.

Longshot wrote:Units suck because they are lacking characteristics that allow them to perform, not because someone played them badly or well.

Indeed. I think there are tons of units that suck, even if played well. There are also many cases of rock/paper/scissors unit matchups out there.

Longshot wrote: Harlequins have lots of characteristics that make them successful (fast, hard-hitting, resilient in CC and shooting -- and relatively cheap) and a few that make them require care to use (they are fragile in certain circumstances).

Everyone keeps saying they are fast--they aren't. They're faster than standard troops, slower than beasts/jump/bikers.
Everyone says they are hard hitting, but I don't see it on the tabletop. They are as 'hard hitting' as your dice luck allows.
Saying they are resilient in CC and shooting is laughable at best. T3 isn't resilient in the slightest. Nor does a 5+ invulnerable save make a unit.
Cheap? I suppose, without many upgrades but alot of the lists I see posted...run 180-220 point Harlies. That isn't "cheap" by my book.

Longshot wrote:
Unfortunately most players are morons and honestly very few people can be counted on to make even the most overpowered units (e.g. necron immortals) succeed. That you can probably tell by looking at your anecdotes - it doesn't matter what people bring, most people are easy to beat because they are stupid (not necessarily because of a list deficiency, although the combination really hurts).

Not sure what to say really. I guess my response should be, I playtest my own armies vs my own armies before I take them anywhere. After a few games locally, they're a fine tuned instrument. I'm not stupid, so I don't fall for gimmicks like Harlies. I know exactly what they can do, I know exactly how to deal with them, and I do so. If that makes me an elitist power gamer, so be it...

Orlanth: I think the Spear Autarch isn't really 'vulnerable' when paired with a Shining Spear unit. As long as you assault properly, you should be just fine--and managing your hit & run, of course.

Question I ask is, are the reserve roll bonuses across ALL your games (when it usually only happens once in three or twice in five) worth taking an Autarch in lieu of another HQ?

Honestly, I can't say it is for my army; but if it is for anyone else, great. Each army is indeed different.

Stelek:

Everyone says they are hard hitting, but I don't see it on the tabletop. They are as 'hard hitting' as your dice luck allows.

The same applies to any unit. The notion that "having to roll sixes" makes them any more luck-dependent is an illusion.

Saying they are resilient in CC and shooting is laughable at best. T3 isn't resilient in the slightest. Nor does a 5+ invulnerable save make a unit.

I have to agree. "Resilient" is not one of their strong points.

Cheap? I suppose, without many upgrades but alot of the lists I see posted...run 180-220 point Harlies. That isn't "cheap" by my book.

Harlies are 162 points for the standard configuration (5+ Shadowseer, all kisses, meant to go in a Falcon). Not exactly cheap as chips, but quite reasonable.

I'm not stupid, so I don't fall for gimmicks like Harlies. I know exactly what they can do, I know exactly how to deal with them, and I do so.

Is there any unit in the game for which it is the case that you don't know what they can do or how to deal with them?

I own every army pretty much, and I've been playing for a long long time.

I disagree with you about Harlies being more luck dependent.

So I'd say no, I don't get surprised often.

Are there units I have trouble with? Certainly.

Put it this way: if Rending occurred on a 5+ to hit, but then still required a 4+ to wound, would you consider it less luck-dependent?

Okay, so you know what every unit can do and how to deal with it. How, then, is the fact that you know what Harlies can do and how to deal with them an argument against Harlies?

I own 4 Phoenix Lords right now. Asurman, Jain Zar, Baharroth, and Fuegan.

Asurmen is my most frequent choice, but I think that's because I usually bring 2-4 Dire Avenger Squads. I think he's an all around good unit. He can hold his own in CC against just about anything short of Abbadon or MC's. He can put out a lot of firepower by himself getting to fire up to 5 shots at once, and his 2+/4+ can't insta-kill makes him nearly impossible to kill. He's a great option, I just don't think he's honestly worth his points. I'd be a bit happier if he where a good 20-30 pts cheaper.

Jain Zar would be the next on the list. She's a beast in close combat, nearly always going first, a good number of str 6/7 power weapon attacks, and while have the invuln save that asurmen does, 2+ immune to double toughness death is pretty nice. Keep her away from a mass number of power weapons and she'll be unstoppable in close combat. In an Apoc game the other day, I had her alone hold up a 15 man possessed squad that would have torn through my pathfinders and dark reapers.

Baharroth, I've only used once so far. He doesn't have the flash that the other Phoenix Lords have, as has already been pointed out. He's most certainly not a IC hunter. Sure he'd have a decent chance of taking down an IC in close combat, but his strength can be better used. The game I used him in, was an Apoc game. We had 2 Chaos and 1 Guard player on the opposing team. I sent him Guard hunting. Basilisks, leman russes, and heavy bolter teams hiding in a forest, pretty safe from most fire, what did I have to send in there that stood a good chance of neutralizing all of that? A unit of Swooping Hawks led by Baharroth. Their grenades would have made short work of the tanks, and Baharroth would have mulched the Guardsmen in close combat. On the flipside, they where relatively safe from being gun downed by the mass amount of heavy bolters because of the cover from the forest (we played 4+ save, since it was a real thick forest). I think the tactic would have worked great had a Warhound with the gigantor flamer decided not to turn the forest into a Smokey The Bear commercial.

Fuegan, I haven't had the chance to use yet, since I just purchased him and he's being painted by Blue Table right now.


Each Phoenix Lord has their place. None are especially wonderful at hunting down things like Abbadon. But from what I've seen, they are all good at doing something, you just have to be aware that your paying a lot of points for something that isn't expected to be the end all of end all's.

Balancing things out across the bell curve doesn't mean much, since that isn't the way it is.

I suppose my answer to your second question would be, assume it isn't an objective mission and you aren't going second. Which is what alot of people seem to think Harlies are built for, but really, any unit will do.

Now, if you don't know how to get rid of 6 T3 troops, why are you playing 40K? The invulnerable save is pretty meaningless. They don't die outright to enemy fire, but level any kind of decent firepower their way and the invulnerable saves are just semantics. Exactly the same as 2+ armor saves.

Is there a bunch of people that don't know this?

Is it not obvious?

Granted, Harlies die to mid-to-short-range focus fire, guaranteed, but the idea is that by the time you get to shoot at them, the job has been done. They're guided missiles. They jump out of the Falcon, take out that pimped out IC or Termie squad and call it mission accomplished. If they live to take out a seocnd unit, great; if not, no one ought to be surprised.

I guess I don't see the point in spending more on the Harlequins when Fire Dragons do the same thing, can kill vehicles better, have a larger threat range, and cost less.

My idea of 'suck' is having duplicate roles within an army, but for wildly different points costs.

Everyone wanted Harlies.

Everyone has Scorpions and Banshees, and since the vehicle nerf they've sucked horribly, but the sales might just be there for Harlies so in they went.

Call it as good as you like, I think it's a crap unit.

The only army I have that is vulnerable to the Harlie Drop is my Chaos list--and until they can ignore Thousand Sons 4+ invulnerable saves, I'm not real worried since they bounce right off of them...and really, most of my other armies are essentially immune to what the Harlies bring.

Maybe my Tau are vulnerable. Hard to say, I don't think 3 Falcons and 3 Harlie units can take my army on from turn 3 and on...cause that's about when everything else the Eldar have on the table is dead.

I should test it more thoroughly. I know the Tau will have a hell of a time against the Seer Council, but I'm hoping to take a look at that this weekend. I figure if they can handle that unit, they can handle the Harlies.

I could be wrong.

Actually, harlies are very resilient in both shooting and CC when compared to a normal 160pt unit.

Their resilience in close combat comes from having a very high initiative and an invulnerable save -- these two things make them more than happy to charge other assault units and put out six casualties on the charge (even ~4 against terminators). They can charge a squad of 10 marines, reliably kill 6, and (assuming the harlie player is a moron and sets up his charge in a way that allows counterattacks), take at most two casualties back.

The optimal use for harlies is charging small, expensive, elite units. A good example would be a squad of 6 noise marines with 5 sonic blasters and a blastmaster and a powerfist vet (weighing in at around 200 points). Harlies charge this squad and kill it before it gets to strike. Then they take up the time of the enemy to kill them, which is no easy task due to the veil of tears.

Fire dragons can't do that - 6 fire dragons shooting at a 6 man squad of marines in cover deals out 6 shots, 3.33 wounds, and 2.22 casualties. Then gets annihilated by return fire.

Harlequins, however, can kill a squad and then sit out in the wide open with 5+ invulnerable saves and the veil, which means any opponent who wants to shoot them and not waste shots has to be less than 14" away. Any time someone fails a veil of tears test, you can count that as points in the bank for harlequins.

Harlies are three times as resilient as fire dragons and 3 times as damaging to units in cover. That's why they are better.

Harlies are faster than any other assault troops in the Eldar dex (except shining sporks) because they can fit in a falcon and still kill stuff.

Edit: Fire Dragons do have an 24" engagement range vs. a 12+1d6" engagement range, but when you only get to shoot/attack once and your vehicle can move 24" when stunned/shaken, that's not a big deal. I personally advocate a mix of Harlies and Fire dragons, but both have their roles.

Stelek wrote:Orlanth: I think the Spear Autarch isn't really 'vulnerable' when paired with a Shining Spear unit. As long as you assault properly, you should be just fine--and managing your hit & run, of course.

If running my Shining Spears I would agree, I love jetbikes. But you still have to get in close and mobile short range shooting can make short work of this very expensive four or five elf MEq squad.

Stelek wrote:Question I ask is, are the reserve roll bonuses across ALL your games (when it usually only happens once in three or twice in five) worth taking an Autarch in lieu of another HQ?

Right in a bring and battle I wouldn't bother. Most of my games are just no scenario no special rules (except deepstrike) if we roll scenarios yes I think it is a worthwhile bonus. Even so if you have soemething important deepstrike then yes - though frankly I cant think of what. My only regular deespstrike atre my Swooping Hawks, and they rarely see the tabletop.

However in a game that uses reserves though an Autarch is a serious advantage. Boost to strategy rating IIRC beating everyone and far better reserve roll boosting than any other armies option to do so. Many armies already make severe changes in case the army starts in reserve, why not this one.

Orlanth wrote:However in a game that uses reserves though an Autarch is a serious advantage. Boost to strategy rating IIRC beating everyone and far better reserve roll boosting than any other armies option to do so. Many armies already make severe changes in case the army starts in reserve, why not this one.

Oh I don't know, hoping escalation eventually goes away cause it's a poor game mechanic?

Stelek wrote:

Orlanth wrote:However in a game that uses reserves though an Autarch is a serious advantage. Boost to strategy rating IIRC beating everyone and far better reserve roll boosting than any other armies option to do so. Many armies already make severe changes in case the army starts in reserve, why not this one.

Oh I don't know, hoping escalation eventually goes away cause it's a poor game mechanic?

AMEN.

Longshot wrote:Actually, harlies are very resilient in both shooting and CC when compared to a normal 160pt unit.

Really? Any of my units can essentially wreck a Harlequin unit in the shooting phase. Jeeze even a IG SWS can wreck them.

Longshot wrote:Their resilience in close combat comes from having a very high initiative and an invulnerable save -- these two things make them more than happy to charge other assault units and put out six casualties on the charge (even ~4 against terminators). They can charge a squad of 10 marines, reliably kill 6, and (assuming the harlie player is a moron and sets up his charge in a way that allows counterattacks), take at most two casualties back.

Ok remember when you were berating me for calling other people stupid?

You do realize you can force Harlequins into assaults that will get them killed, right? Pretty much with any army, at any time? So this doesn't wash.

Longshot wrote:The optimal use for harlies is charging small, expensive, elite units. A good example would be a squad of 6 noise marines with 5 sonic blasters and a blastmaster and a powerfist vet (weighing in at around 200 points). Harlies charge this squad and kill it before it gets to strike. Then they take up the time of the enemy to kill them, which is no easy task due to the veil of tears.

Well my entire Chaos army generally stays within an 18" zone, so getting into CC with any part of the army means you'll die when it's my turn.

By the way, when the dice don't favor you--that Noise Marine squad will kill you.

Veil of tears is pretty useless when you don't have any template weapons to force me apart.

See, this is what alot of people do that really bugs me--they think in a vacuum.

Unit X gets Y attacks, thus it is uber.

What happens when your 12 Harlequins runs into 40 marines in a 12" square?

Do you honestly believe they'll survive?

I sincerely hope so, it makes my victories that much easier.

Longshot wrote:Fire dragons can't do that - 6 fire dragons shooting at a 6 man squad of marines in cover deals out 6 shots, 3.33 wounds, and 2.22 casualties. Then gets annihilated by return fire.

Of course, dropping Fire Dragons on anyone in cover that isn't 2 models or less isn't something I do--unless it's 4, and both Fire Dragon squads are running at it.

I don't know about being annihilated by return fire, I generally don't play 'stupid' and setup my Fire Dragons to eat return fire.

Which is a hell of a lot easier than doing so with Harlequins, even against good opponents.

Longshot wrote:Harlequins, however, can kill a squad and then sit out in the wide open with 5+ invulnerable saves and the veil, which means any opponent who wants to shoot them and not waste shots has to be less than 14" away. Any time someone fails a veil of tears test, you can count that as points in the bank for harlequins.

Indeed. So a Carnifex, Tau Crisis Suit Team, Obliterators/NM/TS, any basic troop with rapid fire weapons nearby (and as I pointed out above, they should be nearby), any jump or bike troop; should be able to run up and waste them. I know that's what I do, and it really isn't that difficult to do--so why are you making it out like it is?

Especially, especially in the GW GT tournaments where terrain is usually 1 per quarter and 1 in the middle??

Longshot wrote:Harlies are three times as resilient as fire dragons and 3 times as damaging to units in cover. That's why they are better.

Nice math. Put it back in your magic hat.

Longshot wrote:Harlies are faster than any other assault troops in the Eldar dex (except shining sporks) because they can fit in a falcon and still kill stuff.

That doesn't make them good. You keep running your theory in a vacuum. All of the 'stupid' players can SEE where the assault is coming from, a TURN in advance. I don't usually think of my opponents as gullable--did you get away with demon bombing unsuspecting players by keeping the 18 bloodletters under the table? Honestly, that's what it seems like....that this unit is SO good, but only against the unsuspecting.

If you see what's coming, and have a turn to prepare....where with Fire Dragons you really can't see it coming...I dunno, good players shrug off the Harlies, and not the Fire Dragons.

Longshot wrote:Edit: Fire Dragons do have an 24" engagement range vs. a 12+1d6" engagement range, but when you only get to shoot/attack once and your vehicle can move 24" when stunned/shaken, that's not a big deal. I personally advocate a mix of Harlies and Fire dragons, but both have their roles.

Ah but you leave out that the Harlequins have to be PRE delivered.

Fire Dragons can go anywhere, at any time.

I guess it's my playstyle, where the other guy has to deal with an army he can't shoot at and can shoot/assault him at will.

Probably why I favor Jetbikes over anything else in the list, they're just too good not to take.

Longshot wrote:Yes I know you've played and beaten everyone handily with your list already so I might as well be talking to myself here.

Ah, foreshadowing. I see what you did there.

Stelek wrote: ... words ...

I'll trade a 160 pt squad for a 200pt squad + the firing and positioning it takes you to kill it any day. Just like I'll trade a squad of fire dragons for a 150pt tank any day and then sacrifice them.

But what you keep assuming in your argument is that the harlequin player is an idiot and his opponent isn't. You say, "You can force a harlequin player into an assault he'll lose." Sure you can set up in a way that he has to spread you out before killing you. But he your opponent is totally capable of gaming in such a way that you get punished for clustering.

For example:

My two squads of harlequins charge one squad of thousand sons, kills 6 of them and holds in combat with your fearless guys, loses one harlequin in return. You charge in with two noise marine squads to counter. Harlies go first, dish out 4 casualties to one noise marine squad, 3 casualties to the other. You get two powerfists, 6 normal attacks from noise marines charging and 6 thousand sons attacks back (12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 3.33 dead + 8 powerfists, 4 hits, 2.22 dead --> total of 5.55 dead harlequins).

Harlequins win combat, hit and run out, charge you again next turn, killing both squads of noise marines and consolidating back into the thousand sons at the end of the round.

That's just a hypothetical but it's a very real example of what happens with Harlequins in clustered combats.

Since my word means nothing to you and that of all the other people who use them successfully, maybe you can try swapping two of your fire dragon squads to Harlequin squads for a match or two - let me know how it turns out when you play them smart, instead of sacrificing them in futile gambits early in the game, as your opponents all seem to.

Well actually I keep assuming I'm playing both armies.

(Like I've done.)

I then try to get the Harlequins into the right position, but I can't because I am not playing stupidly.

Yet, I manage to get the Fire Dragons where I need them pretty much anytime.

Next comment...

The reason I don't "believe" you is I've tried to make sense of your math, but I've been unable to.

You let me counterattack, you aren't getting all of your attacks.

If you don't know why, maybe someone will tell you why.

Again, playing/running game theory in a vacuum=bad.

So you don't get to inflict all of these casaulties, but I get to run my squads into say 3 of your Harlies.

That's 9 attacks. 6 hit. 1 should rend. Of the remaining 5 hits at S3, let's say you kill another marine.

So of my squad of 7, 2 are dead.

I won't bother with the PF, there's no point to it--I want to inflict as many hits as I can without you gimping my PF.

So, that's 4 champion attacks and *3* from each EC, not 2. 4+4x3=16 attacks. 8 Hit, a little more than 5 wound, so the 3 Harlies I targeted and are in the kill zone, die.

Repeat that twice. Now you've lost combat, and if it matters at least 1 of your squads will be below half.
You'll also be outnumbered, approx 10-5. 2-1 odds. (I'm assuming the remnants of the thousand sons get crushed.) You're LD9, so one test at 6 and one at 7. If the below half squad breaks and the other one doesn't, well...those Harlies get to run away forever. If it's the other way around, I'm gonna get assaulted again and its going to hurt. If both break...I sure hope you get away, but sadly I have a I5 so your I6 might not avail you. Again, depending on who gets away and who gets run down, I might get charged again.

Now, as odds are by this time I've killed the rest of your army sans the Falcons and what is within them...what do I care if the troops get killed? You'll have nothing left but Falcons, I'll have marines shooting at said Falcons or avoiding them, as case may be.

Now, of course, comes the other half--what happens if my DP are still alive? If they get to charge you, then we go simultaneous...and if I get Warptime off, that means my 3+ to hit is re-rolled and my 2+ to wound is re-rolled.
That usually means 5 wounds. Granted, you have an invulnerable save, but again since *I* do know what I'm doing, I'm not going to take more than 1 or 2 Harlequins attacks on my DP...and he isn't going to die unless he's already wounded. He'll still end up killing 2-3 Harlequins, on average.

Of course, this is all in a perfect world; but let me just say if the DP's are still alive and you assault me where I can get to you (and I will be able to get to you) then I'll have a field day countercharging and eliminating both Harlequin units.

Now at any time you can tell me you are going to hit and run on YOUR turn, and I'll tell you flat out that those Harlequins will get shot to pieces immediately....so I can only assume the above is true.

When you can 'bring it' to my army with 800 points of Eldar with the other 1000 points stuck in Falcons/Harlequins, then you are the king of 40K and everyone should kiss your ring.

What say?

So it's taken you three cult squads and a DP to wipe out two Harlie squad?

Nice economy there. Your squads might still be alive but they will have taken casualties, and they will be clustered together. Good luck taking objectives with those Falcons still flying around, and a large enough portion of the Eldar army which has been spared the efforts of your four units (I choose to ignore your "odds are by this time I've killed the rest of your army" statement, it is quite frankly laughable).